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Your age and your favourite cowboy
Brown Eyes:
--- Quote from: latjoreme on May 21, 2006, 12:14:25 pm ---Maybe the next poll should be, Who is more at fault for the movie's central tragedy, Ennis or Jack? Of course, the correct answer is C, "society."
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Good one Katherine.
In terms of whether they should have taken the risk to live together... absolutely. Carpe diem as they say. Living their lives to appease homophobes (or even imagined homophobes) is one of the key tragedies in the film. So, as Katherine says, "society" was the main contributing factor in this part of their tragedy. Even living apart did not save them anyway (if we say for the moment, for the sake of argument that Jack did die at the hands of murderous homophobes). The plan to live apart did not spare them (either Jack from his death, Ennis from his grief or both from their loneliness). No one can control what might happen down the road (a person's lover could be killed in an accident, murdered, die from some sort of natural cause, etc.) this does not mean that the opportunity to be together while you can should be squandered. Moreover, it is clear that all sorts of homophobic pressures would be on their situation if they did live together. But, just because Earl was killed in a different place, in a different time, under differenct circumstances, does not mean that the same fate would necessarily have come for Ennis or Jack. I think Ennis's encounter with Jack's Mom was meant to be a window into another aspect of wider society. Not everyone is a hateful homophobe... Jack's Mom is welcoming and respectful of Ennis and what we believe she knows of their relationship. It would certainly have been a difficult way to live and it would have required a lot of courage in many ways. But, it seems like it probably would have been a lot more satisfying since they would have at least been together. It also may have spared some of the surrounding characters some of their heartbreak. I think Jack hates having to live the fake life with Lureen... He would have much prefered to get an honest divorce that would have allowed Lureen to find a more satisfying life for herself too.
serious crayons:
Yup, I agree. In fact, living apart did not save them whether Jack was murdered OR died in an accident. Either way, Ennis probably realizes in the end that he can't control the weather or save Uncle Harold. He should have gone for it.
One of the many things I find interesting about the movie is that, of all the people who presumably knew about Ennis' and Jack's relationship, none did them any real harm. (Unless you count the hypothetical mechanics, and even then it wasn't their relationship at issue.) Alma never mentioned it throughout her marriage to Ennis, and was reasonably discrete when she finally did confront him. Aguirre was kind of mean, but didn't fire them. Jack's dad was obnoxious, but apparently would have been willing to let them run the ranch. The only harm came from Ennis' own reluctance.
The movie doesn't disregard the very real dangers -- there's the specter of Earl, and possibly of Jack's murderers, plus what we viewers know about in real life. But the suggestion is that the biggest threat to their happiness came from Ennis' own fears.
Brown Eyes:
--- Quote from: latjoreme on May 21, 2006, 05:32:01 pm ---Yup Ennis probably realizes in the end that he can't control the weather or save Uncle Harold. He should have gone for it.
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I quite like the way you put this Katherine. :D
--- Quote ---One of the many things I find interesting about the movie is that, of all the people who presumably knew about Ennis' and Jack's relationship, none did them any real harm. (Unless you count the hypothetical mechanics, and even then it wasn't their relationship at issue.) Alma never mentioned it throughout her marriage to Ennis, and was reasonably discrete when she finally did confront him. Aguirre was kind of mean, but didn't fire them. Jack's dad was obnoxious, but apparently would have been willing to let them run the ranch. The only harm came from Ennis' own reluctance.
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I know! I love this about the movie too... the things Ennis worried about came true. Jack died (one way or another) and a really large number of people in their lives knew about them being gay. Alma, Aguirre, Jack's Mom and Dad, Lureen, and probably Alma Jr. all knew by the end of the movie not only that Ennis was gay but they could all identify who his boyfriend was (even though he lived states away). The one main character who didn't know was Cassie. It's hard to know about Monroe or Jenny (it seems at least possible that they knew through family confidences either from Alma or Alma Jr, if she did have Daddy figured out). And you're right, the worst thing that came of any of that was Aguirre did not re-hire Jack when he came back looking for work. I still keep thinking that Ennis lost out on the opportunity to have a great mother-figure in his life by not living with Jack in Lightning Flat. Not only would having Mrs. Twist know not be dangerous, it could have been a wonderful thing for Ennis the orphan.
By the way, the idea of Mr. Twist and Ennis trying to co-exist on one ranch really makes me laugh. I can't even imagine. It's a funny and fun idea though.
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: atz75 on May 21, 2006, 07:44:54 pm ---By the way, the idea of Mr. Twist and Ennis trying to co-exist on one ranch really makes me laugh. I can't even imagine. It's a funny and fun idea though.
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It would be a whole different movie, but I would love to see it! BBM II? Please?!? OK, I guess not.
Rayn:
--- Quote from: latjoreme on May 21, 2006, 12:14:25 pm ---Rayn, are you saying you think Ennis made the right choice in rejecting Jack's idea?
Others may see it differently, but I consider the movie's central tragedy to be Ennis' decision to play by society's rules rather than spend his life with Jack, and his reaching a full appreciation of their relationship only after it was too late.
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No, I'm not saying Ennis made the "right choice" in rejecting Jack's ideas. I don't allow right or wrong (morality) or correct or incorrect or even skilled or unskilled to enter the picture where Ennis or Jack's choices are concerned. I allow them to make their own choices and then live with them.
As I see it, it's not a question of right or wrong for either. Ennis made the choices he was able to make being the man he was and to do otherwise would have been to be someone else. I find no fault in that. That's just the way Ennis was and I accept him that way and so did Jack, mostly.
Also, Ennis did not reject Jack's ideas entirely, nor did Jack reject ideas Ennis had. They compromised with each other so they could be together as often & as much as each of their situations would allow. I don't think it was a black and white situation for either of them. There is much room for nuance in the story and for the subtle shades of grey that often make human existence livable.
I look at Ennis's love for his daughters and for Alma too. He didn't hate her. He defended her even to Jack. I think Ennis can be faulted for maybe trying to take on too much and please everyone, but that's not as large a weakness in his character as some of the others he struggled with.
I also don't consider the central tragedy of the story to be Ennis' decision not to live with Jack. I see it as Jack's death because it was possible, given more life and time together, that Ennis might have finally given into Jack. But with Jack's death, all hope of that is snuffed out. That to me is the tragedy. Jack was only 39 years old... so was Ennis, or about that age. There was so much room for development of their relationship in coming years, you see? I can't imagine them ending their friendship, so I see a chance for development and improvement.
So, yes, you're very right, latjoreme, I see the story in a very different way. We can speculate about "how it might have been if" which is fun for discussion, but I try to see and accept the characters and story for what they were in reality and reality always lends itself to mystery, possibility and change.
Peace,
Rayn
PS: I love this forum and having people to exchange ideas with about BBM, thank you all for being here!
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