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I did once (have a better idea)... to go to Mexico???
Aussie Chris:
--- Quote from: opinionista on April 25, 2006, 08:07:40 am ---On the other hand, losing Jack meant death for him and he knew it. Ennis knew he couldn't live without Jack. Jack was his salvation, the air that kept him alive. He couldn't see him much, but he knew Jack was there, which provided him with some emotional comfort. So, Ennis was struggling hard to have them both, which was emotionally draining for him. When Ennis says: "I can't stand being like this no more, Jack", after falling onto his knees crying, he meant the whole situation not only his relationship with Jack.
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So would you say that all Jack had to do is not come running when Ennis called after the argument (and not die of course), and Ennis' world be forced to reconsider the nature of the relationship? Here I'm taking your "Ennis knew he couldn't live without Jack. Jack was his salvation, the air that kept him alive" thought and applying it to a what would happen if Jack didn't die thought. I know, the extention to the logic is getting a little ridiculous, but hey, I think a part of me refuses to accept the ending...
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: Aussie Chris on April 25, 2006, 12:39:03 am --- But I do find it a strange line to take (misdirected or otherwise) in an argument.
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I agree. In a long-ago thread about least-favorite lines, I mentioned this one.
--- Quote from: DavidinHartford on April 25, 2006, 07:57:45 am ---
--- Quote from: Aussie Chris on April 24, 2006, 08:26:09 pm ---Here's something else to consider: is it possible that Ennis was trying to sabotage the relationship at this point? He gets himself a job that means he cannot get time off.
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Sabotage? No, I don't think so. Ennis obviously isn't happy about where his life is right then. But loosing Jack to him is the last thing he wants.
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This is arguable, but I do think it's possible that Ennis, though he'd never break up entirely, was deliberately trying to minimize his meetings with Jack. He feels a lot of ambivalence about "the relationship" -- as distinct from his feelings for Jack, whom he loves unambivalently. His "not often" reply to Alma at Thanksgiving and his worries about whether people "suspect" reinforce this view. I know what you mean about the over-40 job market, David, still it doesn't seem as if Ennis made job flexibility his top priority (much to his regret later). Ennis is very stoic, and apparently IS able to get by on a couple of high-altitude f'cks as long as he knows Jack will still be there for him. But, as I said, he'd never really want Jack to leave him be.
But as for this
--- Quote from: Aussie Chris on April 25, 2006, 08:29:14 am ---So would you say that all Jack had to do is not come running when Ennis called after the argument (and not die of course), and Ennis' world be forced to reconsider the nature of the relationship?
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I think the answer, sadly, is no. It was Jack's death that forced Ennis to reconsider the nature of the relationship. He already knew he loved Jack. But his death made Ennis realize that his fears about identifying himself as gay should not have outweighed his love.
Brown Eyes:
I believe it's at least possible (although maybe not likely) that Ennis is thinking about trying to work harder on his relationship with Jack following this argument. People have noted that the "I can't stand this anymore" comment echos the "If you can't fix it you've got to stand it" motto. I'm increasingly convinced that this motto can be a key to interpreting lots of aspects of the film. So, maybe Ennis has been scared enough by Jack's unhappiness to try to fix it. Maybe completely giving up on the Cassie charade was a first step. I do concede that this might be wishful thinking. The last postcard is probably good evidence that Ennis had hoped that things would go back to the status quo (with a normal meeting somewhere on a camping trip).
On the idea of sabotage... I can see where that could be an interpretation. But, towards the beginning of the argument Ennis keeps coming up with idea after idea of things they could do to make November fun, etc. He even mentions "elk" which has functioned as an aphrodisiac in their relationship before (obviously the elk that they hunt and the ELKS lodge sign that signals the return of romance before the reunion scene). He's really trying to appease Jack and make him feel better right up to the "I did once" after Ennis says "Do you have a better idea." I think, as you've said, that it's also important he didn't break the November news until the very end of their trip. He clearly feels terribly guilty.
No, as I said in my earlier post, I think that Ennis is desperate to keep Jack. You can't make love to a person for 20 years and have the kinds of passionate encounters and incredible moments of intimacy and not know on some level that this is love and a romantic relationship. We're only allowed to see a few of these moments by the filmmakers... we have to extrapolate and realize that there really are 20 years of long chats, confessions, "happy tussles," tent scenes and kisses, etc. This is what makes Ennis's life exciting and meaningful (aside from his kids). How could he not know how significant all of this is? He believes he's making great sacrifices in order to facilitate this relationship too.
What he says and what he does are often frustratingly different in this movie. He doesn't consider the word love until way too late, but the flashback scene alone radiates love. He says mean and hurtful things during the argument, but I do believe he's sort of testing Jack here. His comments show how worried he is, I think.
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: atz75 on April 25, 2006, 10:27:55 pm ---I believe it's at lease possible (although maybe not likely) that Ennis is thinking about trying to work harder on his relationship with Jack following this argument. People have noted that the "I can't stand this anymore" comment echos the "If you can't fix it you've got to stand it" motto. I'm increasingly convinced that this motto can be a key to interpreting lots of aspects of the film. So, maybe Ennis has been scared enough by Jack's unhappiness to try to fix it. Maybe completely giving up on the Cassie charade was a first step. I do concede that this might be wishful thinking. The last postcard is probably good evidence that Ennis had hoped that things would go back to the status quo (with a normal meeting somewhere on a camping trip).
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Not to sound like I'm totally equivocating about what I said above about the possibility of Ennis sabotaging the relationship, but I agree with this. If Ennis WAS sabotaging -- extremely arguable, but there's something about his "not often" in the Thanksgiving scene that I find ominous -- it was only BEFORE this big argument (maybe "minimize" the relationship is a better description; I don't see him breaking it off completely). But during the argument he saw that he was seriously at risk of losing Jack, and it really upset him. And I, too, believe that his breaking up with Cassie signals that because of that he'd decided to make SOME changes, if only to quit pretending he has any interest in being with anyone else.
BTW, I want to clarify that I think in Ennis' mind there's a difference between "the relationship," which makes him uncomfortable for the obvious reasons, and his feelings toward Jack, whom he loves genuinely, romantically and without reservation. In the end, he realizes he shouldn't have made the distinction.
The elk reference as an aphrodisiac metaphor -- good one!
Aussie Chris:
--- Quote ---No, as I said in my earlier post, I think that Ennis is desperate to keep Jack. You can't make love to a person for 20 years and have the kinds of passionate encounters and incredible moments of intimacy and not know on some level that this is love and a romantic relationship. We're only allowed to see a few of these moments by the filmmakers... we have to extrapolate and realize that there really are 20 years of long chats, confessions, "happy tussles," tent scenes and kisses, etc. This is what makes Ennis's life exciting and meaningful (aside from his kids). How could he not know how significant all of this is? He believes he's making great sacrifices in order to facilitate this relationship too.
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Ahhh Amanda, I think I'll just have to come up with some more questions to test you. I lust love listening to you talk about everything Brokeback - You are my BBM Oracle. Whenever I find myself focusing too much on the dialogue in a specific scene, you help me see the big picture. Bless you girl.
--- Quote ---Not to sound like I'm totally equivocating about what I said above about the possibility of Ennis sabotaging the relationship, but I agree with this. If Ennis WAS sabotaging -- extremely arguable, but there's something about his "not often" in the Thanksgiving scene that I find ominous -- it was only BEFORE this big argument (maybe "minimize" the relationship is a better description; I don't see him breaking it off completely). But during the argument he saw that he was seriously at risk of losing Jack, and it really upset him. And I, too, believe that his breaking up with Cassie signals that because of that he'd decided to make SOME changes, if only to quit pretending he has any interest in being with anyone else.
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And latjoreme, thanks to you also. I see your heart's in exactly the right place. As you can now see, I didn't mean "sabotage" to mean the same as "end", only to temper it so that it had less control over him. Maybe trying to keep Jack just a little more distant because he couldn't commit the way he should or wanted to, which was just as painful for Ennis as it was for Jack.
And I love the idea that maybe the argument and ending the relationship with Cassie was the beginning of a change in how Ennis viewed his relationship with Jack. I know this is just wishful thinking on my part, but it does fit in with the events and is supported by Ennis' final redemption. Kind of makes me sad though if Ennis was maybe considering changing his ways and live with Jack, but Jack dies before he make it a reality.
Thanks also to Sheyne, opinionista, and David, you've all been most helpful this week.
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