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I did once (have a better idea)... to go to Mexico???
Aussie Chris:
Wow everyone, I must say that I'm going to have to ponder this some more. You've never lead me astray, but on this one there's a fundamental that I'm having trouble accepting. For everyone in the "Ennis is angry over the possibility of losing Jack" camp, the thing this assumes is that Ennis sees what he has with Jack as an actual (romantic) relationship. At the time of the argument I don't think he does, in fact he doesn't until after Jack's death. We know for sure that Ennis thinks that gays will be killed, but even more intriguing is that we learn that Ennis himself would be willing to kill Jack if he was to learn the things that Jack does. So are we saying that this is a case of Ennis lashing out because he fears Jack is going to leave him? Are the words that Ennis uses about killing Jack just misdirected rage?
Here's something else to consider: is it possible that Ennis was trying to sabotage the relationship at this point? He gets himself a job that means he cannot get time off. And after Jack becomes angry and Ennis breaks down, he asks Jack to "leave him be" and that it's because of Jack that he is this way. If he was really worried about losing Jack, what's going on here? I'm not forgetting the speech about work and money and child support and such, but how does this support the supposition that Ennis was angry out of fear of losing the relationship?
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: atz75 on April 24, 2006, 07:28:54 pm ---For a "tough guy" Ennis is seen with tears in his eyes a surprisingly large number of times throughout the movie.
--- End quote ---
Six times, to be exact! (Alley, divorce, lakeside argument, phone booth, Jack's bedroom, final scene.) And one time for Jack (post-divorce). This came up in an interesting thread in a different BetterMost forum, devoted to the subject of crying in the movie.
And Amanda, I completely agree with you that this is among the ways Ennis expresses love.
As for your perspective, Chris, you've touched on some larger disagreements about the movie that would affect interpretations beyond this one scene. Personally, I DO think Ennis sees what he has with Jack as an actual romantic relationship. Not that he'd call it that; he'd call it "this thing" that "grabs hold of us" or some other non-threateningly vague term. But to me there are lots of signs that, as early as their summer on the mountain, and certainly by the time of the reunion, he knows that he cares passionately about Jack (again, he might not use the word "love," but it would amount to that).
So, yeah, I do think Ennis' threat to kill Jack is misdirected rage. I don't for a second believe he'd actually ever hurt Jack. But he's really angry, and not just out of homophobia, I don't think.
But when he says "leave me be," I don't think he really wants Jack to do that. Nor does he really blame Jack for him feeling like nothing and nobody. Again, he's just lashing out because he's upset and scared. He can't stand it any more, but doesn't know how to fix it.
The music and camera angles in that scene provide clues as to how we're supposed to take it, I think. The music is absent while Jack is talking, and the camera is trained matter-of-factly on him -- he's making some good points, and we don't know how Ennis is reacting, maybe he's still angry or whatever. Then Jack finishes speaking, and finally the camera turns back to Ennis and we see that his demeanor has changed, he is crying and REALLY upset and at that moment the sad touching music strikes up full force, as if indicating that, yeah, Jack is frustrated and pissed off, but look how heartbroken Ennis is. As I understand it, we're being shown that, as hard as this situation is on Jack, it's equally hard on Ennis.
Aussie Chris:
--- Quote from: latjoreme on April 25, 2006, 12:17:09 am ---So, yeah, I do think Ennis' threat to kill Jack is misdirected rage. I don't for a second believe he'd actually ever hurt Jack. But he's really angry, and not just out of homophobia, I don't think.
--- End quote ---
Oh yeah, of course he wouldn't hurt/kill Jack. Reading my previous post I realise that that was going too far in the point I was trying to make. But I do find it a strange line to take (misdirected or otherwise) in an argument. Ok I'll settle down again now. It seems that there's a general consensus. For the most part I do agree with all of the points that's been made by everyone. Depending on how I feel on the day, I see a different Ennis anyway. I figured I'd thrash this one out for a while and see what came of it.
I thank everyone for their patience and persistence.
David:
--- Quote from: Aussie Chris on April 24, 2006, 08:26:09 pm ---
Here's something else to consider: is it possible that Ennis was trying to sabotage the relationship at this point? He gets himself a job that means he cannot get time off. And after Jack becomes angry and Ennis breaks down, he asks Jack to "leave him be" and that it's because of Jack that he is this way.
--- End quote ---
Hi Chris,
Sabotage? No, I don't think so. Ennis obviously isn't happy about where his life is right then. But loosing Jack to him is the last thing he wants. That is why he keeps his mouth shut about August until the end. Ennis obviously still needs Jack. That is why he traded August with his boss to get the time of in May. Ennis is also getting older. He knows that getting jobs is alot harder when your pushing 40. (trust me on this. Sigh)
No, Ennis's reaction at the end is his "counter point" to Jacks complaints. Jack has just rattled off how frustrated he was. These words cut right thru Ennis. The best he can do is retort back with his laments about where he is in life. "Let me be" ?? That is the LAST thing Ennis wants! He is sooo tortured by the fact he wants to be with Jack and societies threat towards them.
Poor Ennis, porr Jack. :'(
opinionista:
--- Quote ---I thank everyone for their patience and persistence.
--- End quote ---
Well, I'm glad you brought this topic up. It made me think about the movie again, which I haven't actually done in a while.
--- Quote ---Here's something else to consider: is it possible that Ennis was trying to sabotage the relationship at this point? He gets himself a job that means he cannot get time off. And after Jack becomes angry and Ennis breaks down, he asks Jack to "leave him be" and that it's because of Jack that he is this way. If he was really worried about losing Jack, what's going on here? I'm not forgetting the speech about work and money and child support and such, but how does this support the supposition that Ennis was angry out of fear of losing the relationship?
--- End quote ---
This is intersting because I thought the same until I read Ennis' returned postcard, the one with "deceased" stamped on. I realized then that Ennis didn't want to break up with Jack no matter how unconfortable he felt with the fact that he was in love with a man.
I think Ennis, at that point of his life, felt caught between a rock and a hard place. On one hand, he had his daughters to think about. He loved Jack but he also loved his two little girls and failing to make child support meant a risk to lose them. When he was married to Alma he didn't have to worry about that, because he knew there were going to be home when he was back. But after the divorce, everything was different. And to make things worse, Alma knew about his secret, and Ennis knew she knew.
On the other hand, losing Jack meant death for him and he knew it. Ennis knew he couldn't live without Jack. Jack was his salvation, the air that kept him alive. He couldn't see him much, but he knew Jack was there, which provided him with some emotional comfort. So, Ennis was struggling hard to have them both, which was emotionally draining for him. When Ennis says: "I can't stand being like this no more, Jack", after falling onto his knees crying, he meant the whole situation not only his relationship with Jack.
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