Our BetterMost Community > Chez Tremblay
Getting hit hard by off-hand expression of contempt
injest:
I would add to that, Del, that doesn't your environment define your ideas? You can think the stereotype is outdated but if the men you deal with in your own life still adhere to it, doesn't that make it a reality to you?
delalluvia:
--- Quote from: injest on May 16, 2007, 11:11:17 pm ---I would add to that, Del, that doesn't your environment define your ideas? You can think the stereotype is outdated but if the men you deal with in your own life still adhere to it, doesn't that make it a reality to you?
--- End quote ---
Absolutely.
Remember, I live in a state that didn't approve of gay marriage. A state that has had a conservative Republican governor for 3 terms now, the state from which 2 Bush men came to be president, a state that invariably in the voting goes Republican.
There are liberal men around who believe gay marriage is true equality and that women's ability to choose is her right - I know many of them as well, those are the men I date - but I also have friends who are not of the same mindset.
A conservative friend just threw an out-of-his-ass statistic at me - "70% of Americans don't want gay marriage." I laughed in his face. "70% eh? There are nearly 400 million Americans. Did they poll ALL of them? If so, I myself living in a major metropolitan area, being a tax-paying adult SHOULD have been asked my opinion, but no one asked me..."
He believes stats like that. I am surrounded by Texas men. I used to unload semi trucks as part of my job. Only 1 of the many truckers (all men) I dealt with thought that if I wanted a job like that, I could unload it by myself. The others were what I called good ole boy gentlemen who wouldn't think of letting a little lady like me unload a semi-truck full of merchandise. They helped me out every single time.
Your reality is what you experience daily.
HerrKaiser:
--- Quote from: delalluvia on May 17, 2007, 12:09:50 am ---Absolutely.
Remember, I live in a state that didn't approve of gay marriage. A state that has had a conservative Republican governor for 3 terms now, the state from which 2 Bush men came to be president, a state that invariably in the voting goes Republican.
There are liberal men around who believe gay marriage is true equality and that women's ability to choose is her right - I know many of them as well, those are the men I date - but I also have friends who are not of the same mindset.
A conservative friend just threw an out-of-his-ass statistic at me - "70% of Americans don't want gay marriage." I laughed in his face. "70% eh? There are nearly 400 million Americans. Did they poll ALL of them? If so, I myself living in a major metropolitan area, being a tax-paying adult SHOULD have been asked my opinion, but no one asked me..."
He believes stats like that. I am surrounded by Texas men. I used to unload semi trucks as part of my job. Only 1 of the many truckers (all men) I dealt with thought that if I wanted a job like that, I could unload it by myself. The others were what I called good ole boy gentlemen who wouldn't think of letting a little lady like me unload a semi-truck full of merchandise. They helped me out every single time.
Your reality is what you experience daily.
[/quote
Yes, one's reality is one's reality. But it seems your point is validating the use of stereotypes. The reason we have to go beyond our own personal experiences and see the bigger picture is to avoid labeling all blacks as street gang thugs (even though some people's only personal experiences--I know some--with blacks are as crime victims) or all gays as sex crazed irresponsible queens, if one's only personal experience with gay people was the gay day parade in san francisco. Or, as the point here, stereotyping men as non evolved chauvinists when the projectalbe data shows otherwise.
--- End quote ---
serious crayons:
I have been reading this thread for a few days and wanting to jump in because the topic is interesting, but I can never figure out what to say. I guess because I don't understand the argument. As far as I can tell, everybody is right.
Are all men macho sexists? Obviously not. Are all men progressive feminists? Obviously not. What is the proportion of each?
We could draw upon our personal experiences. Del lives in a conservative environment. I have always lived, worked and socialized in liberal environments. My opinions would be colored by my circumstances, just as Del's are.
Or we could look at random bits of evidence: Americans elected George W. Bush president, late-night talk-show hosts make jokes about BBM, commercials usually depict women as being responsible for domestic chores. But there are counterarguments: lots of people voted for Kerry and Gore, BBM made much more money and earned more criticial praise than expected, more men are helping with housework. BUT THEN, there are still further counterarguments: BBM didn't win the BP Oscar, women make 73 cents for every dollar men earn and perform more unpaid domestic work, etc. etc.
How about a survey? Unlike Del, I do tend to give credence to research that draw conclusions about all Americans' opinions based on a representative sample. But if we conducted a survey, what would we find out? That some proportion of people are still homophobic and sexist and racist, and that some proportion of people aren't, or at least aren't as much as they were 20 or 40 or 60 years ago.
So what? We've come quite a ways, but we're not there yet.
loneleeb3:
--- Quote ---they not only learn that the dominant culture hates and fears them, but that they learn to hate and fear themselves. It's a double whammy, and much needless suffering has resulted from what so many of us now recognize as the sickness of homophobia.
--- End quote ---
Thankew!
Friend, you're singin my song here. Sure explains why I am the way I am. >:(
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