Author Topic: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?  (Read 73922 times)

Offline southendmd

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Re: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
« Reply #100 on: December 04, 2007, 02:18:10 pm »
I have to agree with you, Laura, about the "once burned":  it comes off as a real insult, and her barely contained anger lets loose.  I'd probably let him have it, too. 

Here's the line from the story:

"Once burned," he said, leaning against the counter, feeling too big for the room.

Ennis could have said something a lot more civil. 

Offline serious crayons

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Re: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
« Reply #101 on: December 04, 2007, 02:30:43 pm »
I know I'm in the minority on this, but I can see "once burned" as meaning he was burned by the experience of a failed marriage, not by Alma's faults. True, even so it's not the most polite comment ever.

On the other hand, "You ought to get married" is not a remark anyone really wants to hear either, gay or straight, single or divorced. Who likes having people pressure you about that, whatever your reasons for being single? (A similar one, if you already are married, is, "You ought to have children.") And particularly not Ennis, who has a very specific reason for being unmarried, and one he wants to keep hidden. So Alma's initial question is a bit pushy itself.

I always see a direct line of causality between this conversation and his relationship with Cassie.









Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
« Reply #102 on: December 04, 2007, 02:38:20 pm »
I don't know. Alma makes the 'married again' comment in a relaxed and offhand way, in a languid, almost sleepy voice (full of milk and turkey). It's after his "once burned" reply that she visibly bristles.

He'd cheated on her for years with someone he's met before they were even married (making his marriage to her a sham), sodomized her when she didn't want it, yelled at her out on the street, and indicated ("I'll be happy to leave you alone") complete lack of interest in her sexual and emotional satisfaction. And after all that, he's blaming her for the failure of the marriage? 

I think anybody would let him have it after that, and be justified in doing so.

I'm really not disagreeing with any of this. I just believe she knew exactly where she was heading right from the start. But perhaps Ennis's comment influenced the way she chose to get there.

It suddenly occurs to me to wonder, too, whether Alma's comment that she and the girls worried about Ennis might not have had some role in provoking his "Once burned" remark. It occurs to me that it might strike you as annoying to have the woman who divorced you tell you that she worries about you. I mean, hunh?  ???
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline southendmd

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Re: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
« Reply #103 on: December 04, 2007, 02:43:34 pm »
I know I'm in the minority on this, but I can see "once burned" as meaning he was burned by the experience of a failed marriage, not by Alma's faults. True, even so it's not the most polite comment ever.

On the other hand, "You ought to get married" is not a remark anyone really wants to hear either, gay or straight, single or divorced. Who likes having people pressure you about that, whatever your reasons for being single? (A similar one, if you already are married, is, "You ought to have children.") And particularly not Ennis, who has a very specific reason for being unmarried, and one he wants to keep hidden. So Alma's initial question is a bit pushy itself.

I always see a direct line of causality between this conversation and his relationship with Cassie.

Intrusive, pushy, maybe.  But, she adds something like, "Me and the girls worry about you being alone so much."  (I don't see that as annoying; I mean, he accepted the Thanksgiving invitation.)

To me, the "once burned" comment said at that time implicitly blamed Alma for their marriage.  So, she explodes with the only thing she's got, that she somehow held in for many years.  As long as she was dependent on him, she never confronted him with the kiss, or the creel case.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
« Reply #104 on: December 04, 2007, 03:03:09 pm »
To me, the "once burned" comment said at that time implicitly blamed Alma for their marriage.  So, she explodes with the only thing she's got, that she somehow held in for many years.  As long as she was dependent on him, she never confronted him with the kiss, or the creel case.

I agree with this.

Quote
Intrusive, pushy, maybe.  But, she adds something like, "Me and the girls worry about you being alone so much."  (I don't see that as annoying; I mean, he accepted the Thanksgiving invitation.)

Nevertheless, if someone who had sued me for divorce turns around and says that she "worries" about me in any way, shape, or form, I think my first respnse would be, "If you're so all-fired concerned about me, then what the hell did you divorce me for?"

Which is not to excuse Ennis for what he said, maybe only to offer a possible explanation for what might have provoked the remark.


"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
« Reply #105 on: December 04, 2007, 03:15:19 pm »
At least Alma Jr. was decent and cared for her father Ennis, even if I feel that she knew that her dad was a bi or gay man!!

That caring showed her that she was not anti-gay!

Hugs!!

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Re: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
« Reply #106 on: December 04, 2007, 04:52:44 pm »
Lots of interesting, insightful comments in this thread (I think we could give any book/collection of essays on this story/film a good run for its money).

My own feeling on Junior is that she probably suspected that her father was gay or bisexual, at least by the time of her scene with Cassie. The cryptic "Maybe he's not the marrying kind" remark and her added "You're good enough" response suggest that she feels that Cassie is probably barking up the wrong tree where her dad is concerned. What I get from that latter comment is the sense that Junior does see Cassie as good enough for any man to want--but she can't trust her dad to really do so, because of what she senses as his true nature. I don't necessarily think that Junior had these perceptions/feelings fully articulated in her mind, but I do suspect they were there, however nebulous their form might have been and may even have remained.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
« Reply #107 on: December 04, 2007, 05:06:07 pm »
(I think we could give any book/collection of essays on this story/film a good run for its money).

Did you have a particular one in mind, Scott?  ;D

Quote
My own feeling on Junior is that she probably suspected that her father was gay or bisexual, at least by the time of her scene with Cassie. The cryptic "Maybe he's not the marrying kind" remark and her added "You're good enough" response suggest that she feels that Cassie is probably barking up the wrong tree where her dad is concerned. What I get from that latter comment is the sense that Junior does see Cassie as good enough for any man to want--but she can't trust her dad to really do so, because of what she senses as his true nature. I don't necessarily think that Junior had these perceptions/feelings fully articulated in her mind, but I do suspect they were there, however nebulous their form might have been and may even have remained.

I dunno, Scott. Seems to me this doesn't give the comment enough credit for being a put-down, which is how I think Cassie sees it (and how I see it--that Cassie may be "good enough" but she's nothing special, or no better than she should be), but in her basic good-natured way Cassie doesn't allow the insult to upset her.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Katie77

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Re: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
« Reply #108 on: December 04, 2007, 05:33:46 pm »
I have to agree with you, Laura, about the "once burned":  it comes off as a real insult, and her barely contained anger lets loose.  I'd probably let him have it, too. 

Here's the line from the story:

"Once burned," he said, leaning against the counter, feeling too big for the room.

Ennis could have said something a lot more civil. 

I think Alma was genuine in her caring for Ennis, and her comment about "me and the girls worry about you", was a gesture of that.

Then he let go with the "once burned" comment, which was like putting condemnation and blame on her.....and that was, I think, the straw that broke the camels back with Alma, as far as taking any of the blame for the marriage not working.She probably thought....."ok, enoughs enough, Im gonna let him know who and what did cause our marriage to disintegrate"......

Up until the time she spat out the "Jack Nasty" words, Ennis did not have any idea that Alma had had any suspicions about Jack, he thought he had got away with all of it, without her knowing anything, and he knew that everything she was saying to him was true. She was not only letting him know that she was aware that his "fishing trips" were a lie, she was telling him that she knew that Jack was more than just a fishing buddy to him.

The fact that she had held all that in for so long, is testement to her good nature....and also, I think she would have been afraid to confront him with it, while they were still married, because of his temper....the time had come, he lit the fuse with the "once burned" comment, and she exploded with the "Jack Nasty" one.........

Being happy doesn't mean everything is perfect.

It means you've decided to see beyond the imperfection

Offline serious crayons

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Re: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
« Reply #109 on: December 04, 2007, 05:55:28 pm »
I dunno, Scott. Seems to me this doesn't give the comment enough credit for being a put-down, which is how I think Cassie sees it (and how I see it--that Cassie may be "good enough" but she's nothing special, or no better than she should be), but in her basic good-natured way Cassie doesn't allow the insult to upset her.

I think I lean toward Scott's interpretation. I think Cassie takes it the way you do, Jeff -- that Alma Jr. is saying she's nothing special. But I think what Alma Jr. really means is that Cassie is plenty good enough to marry, and yet Ennis still doesn't do it, so therefore he must not be the marryin kind.

At that point, Alma Jr. may not know WHY he isn't the marryin kind, though. It seems to me that nowadays, when we look back on what in those days they'd call "confirmed bachelors" and the like, we now kind of assume that many of them were probably gay. But back while those days were still happening, the idea that they were gay probably didn't cross as many straight people's minds, and they just assumed they were men who preferred living alone. Does that make sense? And do those with a longer view of gay history agree?

However, in the final trailer scene, when Ennis asks "This Kurt fella, he loves you?" and then looks off to the side, emotions flashing over his face, I think Alma's curious and then sympathetic look suggests that she may understand that Ennis has gone through some kind of romantic heartbreak. And she probably knows it's not about Alma Sr. or Cassie. Yet she also knows her father isn't the marryin kind. So that, along with the many fishing trips and the big hug and so on, and the fact that by now it's the '80s, may have led her to put 2 and 2 and 2 and 2 together.