Author Topic: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?  (Read 73920 times)

Offline underdown

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Re: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
« Reply #170 on: December 12, 2007, 06:57:23 pm »
Maybe a TOTW thread should be titled, for instance,  'Did Alma Jr know Ennis was gay ... and how would you relate this question to your own life and thoughts?' etc.

It would seem in keeping with the spirit of Bettermost that this is implied anyway 'though that might be a tad long for the header.
Of course freedom of expression is ok, so long as it doesn't cut across the right of another to be free of attack or, indeed, cause a reaction which might harm the person who inadvertently posts something that gets a little personal.

I read a post yesterday that seemed to be an emotional response, and it disappeared. Maybe it, too, was moved somewhere. We must accept that emotions can run high, and moderators have a tough job balancing that. That's why they are here.

Artiste, I will try to answer your questions, but do not want to be a 'know all' or be 'off topic' here, so will post them in 'Artistes questions'.

Hopefully without going too far 'off thread': ....

I am sure that, if Alma Jnr knew her Dad was gay, and loved him so much that she was open about it, Ennis would have been the first to warn her, because he knew the danger of the attitude in that time and place that she could be subjected to.

Katherine makes a very valid point about straight women being in danger. I have lived in a few cities, and there is a distinctly more prominent fear among women in Sydney. A lot of that is more talk than actual reported occurance. As far as discrimation against, or attacks on, gay people, I can only speak from observation in Sydney, which has a prominent gay population, and other parts of Australia where I have lived.

My general observation is that the gay community here is not reported to suffer bashings and murder just for being gay. Of course, it might occur and not be reported. It did happen many years ago, but even then was rare. There seems, nowadays, a very open feeling between gay and straight people. With extremely few exceptions, I have not, since I was very young, heard any criticism of gay people from women. Quite the reverse. Straight women love gay men. Nor have I heard very much from straight men, for that matter. Here, they are very accepting. And it is quite an open issue for young people. A 19 year old girl might not mention her Dad's homosexuality to anyone unless asked, but would not fear for her father's safety, and would probably not mind talking about the subject in general amongst her friends. My own daughters have no problem talking about it, and I am sure that if I were gay, they would have this same attitude.

xRob

Offline serious crayons

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Re: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
« Reply #171 on: December 12, 2007, 07:26:37 pm »
Katherine makes a very valid point about straight women being in danger.

Just to clarify, my comments about the threat of hate crimes to women also apply, of course, to gay women.



Offline LauraGigs

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Re: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
« Reply #172 on: December 12, 2007, 08:02:26 pm »
Quote from: Artiste
Likely not in the book, as you say. But why this accent in the movie via Jr.?

You're asking, in other words, why was there such an emphasis on Alma Jr in the film? What was the function of her character? 
That's actually an excellent and interesting question.

I'm at work and so must be brief, but I think Alma Junior represents redemption and hope for the character of Ennis. Proulx's short story introduction touches on this (the fact that Ennis had Junior to fall back on). The film simply develops this further.

Ennis had lost Jack, and therefore lost any chance to improve that relationship — to "love Jack better". But as a father, he still has time to build his bonds with his children — giving and receiving the joy those bonds offer.

Through most of his life, his children were a financial burden; but in the end, they were his emotional salvation. Ennis would indeed be "nothin, nowhere" — rotting alone in his trailer — if it weren't for the new generation he created who loved him.

-----------------

^I'm talking here about the end of the film and beyond, but the question of her character's function *earlier in the film* is also very intriguing.

Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
« Reply #173 on: December 12, 2007, 08:05:18 pm »
Thanks underdown!

You do not know that I am not surprised by your comment, as I felt that you are honest and ernest!!
But, (excuse my butt), I am totally (or nearly so) surprised by some of your comments herein, especially about gays life downunder.

You stay this: am sure that, if Alma Jnr knew her Dad was gay, and loved him so much that she was open about it, Ennis would have been the first to warn her, because he knew the danger of the attitude in that time and place that she could be subjected to.

Katherine makes a very valid point about straight women being in danger. I have lived in a few cities, and there is a distinctly more prominent fear among women in Sydney. A lot of that is more talk than actual reported occurance. As far as discrimation against, or attacks on, gay people, I can only speak from observation in Sydney, which has a prominent gay population, and other parts of Australia where I have lived.

My general observation is that the gay community here is not reported to suffer bashings and murder just for being gay. Of course, it might occur and not be reported. It did happen many years ago, but even then was rare. There seems, nowadays, a very open feeling between gay and straight people. With extremely few exceptions, I have not, since I was very young, heard any criticism of gay people from women. Quite the reverse. Straight women love gay men. Nor have I heard very much from straight men, for that matter. Here, they are very accepting. And it is quite an open issue for young people. A 19 year old girl might not mention her Dad's homosexuality to anyone unless asked, but would not fear for her father's safety, and would probably not mind talking about the subject in general amongst her friends. My own daughters have no problem talking about it, and I am sure that if I were gay, they would have this same attitude.


.........................

May I disagree about some of your points, and agree with others??  I had a friend who went to see for months his friend who went to lived /workin your country. They enjoyed it, the gay life there; like a new found freedom, since many gays felt that and did that! But then the government via the police closed the gay places down and arrested gays. Yes, that was years ago. I want to know if really gay life is better since then?? How?? Pray so.

Is gay marriage (man with man, or female with female) accepted in your country now??

Canada, England, France, and Spain, accepts gay marriages now, I think. But the USA does not, with few exeptions somewhat. However, your straight marriage (man with female) was accepted?

Concerning youth, they seem to accept gays, from what I see on the internet, where sites lets us comment about the BM movie! But (excuse my butt again), more and more kids are murdering adults! Why?
One just killed an adult a few weeks ago, here! Plus, many other cases, even in these quiet areas (and by that I mean in an democratic country where there is no civil war right now, like in Iraq, or other countries where there is no civil liberties!!

Yesterday, an muslim youth was murdered by her father since she did not were her religious clothes at the high school, in an civilized country: Canada! And there are many other cases of such in this country, and surely in yours, in the USA, England, France... by such extrimists.

With the influx of such so-called extimist religions, now saw a revived movie about Aurore, since her father and step-mother tortured her to death; that was a real case and these so-called parents just spent a few years in jail. But the child's life... is but no more; where is her civil rights and liberties when the whole town, religious authority and law officer neglected this girl, even if they knew that two previous children were murdered too!! To me, this is all over again, giving a blind eye, like in the WWWII days where many countries sent gays to Germany to death camps like over a million, llike for milllions of jews, and like too many children who were said to be retarded or unwanted!!! All freedom loving persons, must fight for our free societies and free laws, by wondrous means!! Right?

To-day, an male lawyer here said on TV that he was over 4 years having to fight in court because a man of 43 years now, said that this lawyer had sex with him as a youth; he says that this cost him millions of $; that the court (I forget how to name that part of justice) had too much added blame for nothing as well as police on trump up like charges; so since he worked and believe in justice, he is now deceived... a lot!! It seems to me that maybe he went to court because he is a gay man (or is not a gay, but thought to be or used as a ruse by criminals)!!

I fight now against criminals here too. Even was told by a lawyer that I should move elsewhere! These criminals used over 8 policemen to hassle my mother and I so far this year!!

Far from here, in a another city where I fought for over 20 yuears a criminal who became an unwanted neighbour,
I had to give him my house... since police, no more local lawyers, neither city would help. The whole neighboujood, which was classy and decent, is now in crack housesafter another. Even, onechild in Grade 6 was hanged in the school bathroom sincehe refused to take drugs! Governments and police did nothing but lipservice!! There now in that city kids galorekill other kids and even adults, some said they do for the fun!! To see one die!! There is another city similar in the USA that is likewise; so a study is being made is to why this happens!
In that one,a gay man was murdered, and one of the two murderers got away with it, since the jury believe him! Was that jury homophobi? The gay guy was born thereand a decent person to all!!


If Alma Jr.] knew orsensed (likely) that her father was a gay person, then so could have blasted her father, killed him or have him murdered, or beaten up, and luckily she was intelligent(to my point of view) and accepted her dad no matter if he was or is hetero, bi, gay or otherwise!!!

Much said and not much said...

awaiting your news,

hugs!









Offline underdown

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Re: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
« Reply #174 on: December 12, 2007, 11:03:49 pm »
Just to clarify, my comments about the threat of hate crimes to women also apply, of course, to gay women.




Please excuse this being off topic.

In this country (Australia) the majority of crimes of physical attack against another person seem to be those committed by men against their wives or defacto partners (with alcohol as a major factor).
Most of this is not reported to police, but is well known by community services authorities, doctors, friends and (thus) media. There are also increasing numbers of cases reported of the abuse of children, quite often committed by a defacto male against his partner's child, but sometimes by both parents.
I think that community attitudes are changing with better communication, as people become less ignorant of gay matters, and more informed about male/female abuse. Ignorance of gay matters led to unfounded fear, or homophobia. Now there is a fear of straight men, generated by the reported actions of the abusive. I don't think any 19 year old would consider gay men at high risk here and now, compared to women in a bad marriage or defacto relationship. Years ago, they might have.

Rob

Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
« Reply #175 on: December 13, 2007, 12:03:22 am »
I tried to answer at length a bit, but it disappeared all of a sudden. Will try tomorow, since I think a lot about if Jr. knew about her dad being gay!

Might be the cold.

Hugs! Keep warm under(underdown) and over (ineedcrayons)!! Ha! Ha!

Hugs! Hugs!

Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
« Reply #176 on: December 13, 2007, 09:07:16 am »
In this country (Australia) the majority of crimes of physical attack against another person seem to be those committed by men against their wives or defacto partners (with alcohol as a major factor).
Most of this is not reported to police, but is well known by community services authorities, doctors, friends and (thus) media. There are also increasing numbers of cases reported of the abuse of children, quite often committed by a defacto male against his partner's child, but sometimes by both parents.
I think that community attitudes are changing with better communication, as people become less ignorant of gay matters, and more informed about male/female abuse. Ignorance of gay matters led to unfounded fear, or homophobia. Now there is a fear of straight men, generated by the reported actions of the abusive. I don't think any 19 year old would consider gay men at high risk here and now, compared to women in a bad marriage or defacto relationship. Years ago, they might have.

Um Rob, is this supposed to sound as condescending as it does?  You seem to be suggesting that the fear women and gays feel is somewhat unfounded because any reported violence has been beaten up or exaggerated?  Are you suggesting that it's not really as dangerous as we think?
Nothing is as common as the wish to be remarkable - William Shakespeare

moremojo

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Re: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
« Reply #177 on: December 13, 2007, 10:56:06 am »
Through most of his life, his children were a financial burden; but in the end, they were his emotional salvation. Ennis would indeed be "nothin, nowhere" — rotting alone in his trailer — if it weren't for the new generation he created who loved him.
Thank you for this beautifully written explication, Laura.

Offline underdown

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Re: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
« Reply #178 on: December 13, 2007, 11:31:21 am »
I did say 'Please excuse this being off topic' Chris, so a response would be better somewhere else.
But I don't know where, so if it is moved, that's fine ... I would totally agree.

No, that last post was not supposed to sound condescending, and I'm sorry if you took it that way.

'Not really as dangerous as we think' depends on how a person perceives danger.
I don't pretend to know how others think about it, and certainly don't suggest that there is no reason for anyone to fear, be they gay or straight, male or female. The point was that the attitude of a few who are self righteous towards gay people can promote fear in many other straight people who might otherwise respect the fact that we are all human beings. Such a general, ignorant (as in lack of understanding) attitude would then be 'somewhat unfounded'. That does not imply that I think that the fear gay people feel is, also, unfounded.

The threat women feel from straight men has a diffent cause, and I was not suggesting that it is unfounded because reported violence is beaten up or exagerated. There has been an increase in abuse of women and children by straight males, and I am old enough to have observed that, even if I don't know all the reasons. There have been reported some very serious abuses of women and children by straight males, and I have to assume that they are by straight males because they are mostly either sexual attacks or committed by males in a hetorosexual relationship. I know it is not a true analogy with homophobia, however, again, it is the minority that infects the majority, and hence the observation 'Now there is a fear of straight men, generated by the reported actions of the abusive'. Of course, straight males do not suffer the physical abuse generated against women and children, nor the physical and psychological abuse directed against gay people. But they do suffer greatly from generalisations about the motives and behaviour of straight males, and it is very demeaning to be assumed just as much, or nearly as much, a risk as those males who grab the headlines with their disgusting behaviour. It is even harder because they are expected to, and do, take it without complaint, and not defend themselves.

Just an aside. I have had many gay and bi friends over the years whom I love and respect. I have also had many straight female friends whom I love and respect. And it has nearly always been mutual.

I won't do the (hugs) thing....  I am straight, after all.
But I do care.

Rob.

moremojo

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Re: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
« Reply #179 on: December 13, 2007, 12:23:30 pm »
I just had a thought that perhaps has been touched on elsewhere without my awareness. But I occurred to me that even Alma herself (the senior one) might not have "known" Ennis was gay. I'm thinking back to the Thanksgiving confrontation--the concern over Ennis being alone and the hope for him to remarry, along with the "Jack Nasty" rebuke. The concern over remarriage could suggest a perception on Alma's part that Ennis might be straight, were it not for the fishing trips with "Jack Nasty"--the implication here could be that Alma might see Jack as the one steering Ennis onto a "deviant" path, but that he himself is not intrinsically "deviant".

If this is the case, it could complicate our understanding of Alma Junior (or anyone else in Riverton) possibly realizing Ennis's gayness. Insofar as Junior is aware of Jack and his presence and impact on her father's life, she could see Jack and his relationship with Ennis as an aberration in Ennis's existence.