Author Topic: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?  (Read 73907 times)

Offline Artiste

  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • ********
  • Posts: 15,998
Re: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
« Reply #180 on: December 13, 2007, 01:09:34 pm »
Thanks underdown!

Why not the hugs!??

It is not kissing a gay man or a gay women!!

You surprise me. Please explain!

Hugs!

Offline Artiste

  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • ********
  • Posts: 15,998
Re: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
« Reply #181 on: December 13, 2007, 01:31:32 pm »
Thanks moremojo! And thanks to all too!!

You say: Alma might see Jack as the one steering Ennis onto a "deviant" path, but that he himself is not intrinsically "deviant".

.....................

Gay lives were seen then as indeed deviant, and still is so viewed as that by many, even in our civilized countries;
let us all (gays and straights and other freedom loving persons) remember that they even imprisoned that famous English writer in England; plus to-day some presidents of even europen countries call gays deviants (one or two in the news did this year); and, we must never forget that muslims and other so-called religious countries murder gays to-day in line ups (even inChina I think?)!!

Yes, I think that many, if not the majority or near that, of the population of our civilized countries (USA, Canada, Engalnd, France...) do think that gay men and gay women are deviant!! ??

I note that yesterday, a prominant local lawyer, who was charged for allegedly having sex with a young man and so he fought that for nearly five years with millions of $ and  with the world famous lawyer that Sir Black had in the USA lately!!  But he had been charged with over 40 counts! And he won his case yesterday, since the young man now 43 changed his testimony during the court! But mother calls that, is finding the lawyer outrages (word like you use deviant, I find! And even to-day this noon, she cries that out again!!) I do not know if that lawyer is a gay man, but he says on TV news that he has lost respect for the crown's office and how they do bussiness, plus that too about the police!! It seems obvious to me that much of the population, including some in the courts and the police are anti-gay. Is that so you way, anyone your way?

It seems obvious too to me, that even if Alma Sr. considers Jack deviant, that she is not only seeing Jack as the devil (for lack of a better word) but also crasy in every way in rendering her former husband also as crasy or deviant, since he separated from her and since he will not re-marry either her or another woman??


Hugs!

Offline LauraGigs

  • Moderator
  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,447
    • My Design Portfolio
Re: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
« Reply #182 on: December 13, 2007, 01:51:02 pm »
Quote from: Moremojo
The concern over remarriage could suggest a perception on Alma's part that Ennis might be straight, were it not for the fishing trips with "Jack Nasty"--the implication here could be that Alma might see Jack as the one steering Ennis onto a "deviant" path, but that he himself is not intrinsically "deviant".

I've always had a problem with the idea that Alma was "goading" or "baiting" Ennis into a fight with that remark. Her tone here is concerned (only turning into rage with the "once burned" reply). This puts their conversation in a whole new light. And it's completely consistent with the ignorance of the time concerning homosexuality (even these days -- remember the Gene Shalit review saying Jack was a "sexual predator"?)

Anyway, it's fascinating! I think you're totally on to something here.

Offline brokeplex

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,247
  • LCARS
Re: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
« Reply #183 on: December 13, 2007, 01:51:17 pm »
Please excuse this being off topic.

In this country (Australia) the majority of crimes of physical attack against another person seem to be those committed by men against their wives or defacto partners (with alcohol as a major factor).
Most of this is not reported to police, but is well known by community services authorities, doctors, friends and (thus) media. There are also increasing numbers of cases reported of the abuse of children, quite often committed by a defacto male against his partner's child, but sometimes by both parents.
I think that community attitudes are changing with better communication, as people become less ignorant of gay matters, and more informed about male/female abuse. Ignorance of gay matters led to unfounded fear, or homophobia. Now there is a fear of straight men, generated by the reported actions of the abusive. I don't think any 19 year old would consider gay men at high risk here and now, compared to women in a bad marriage or defacto relationship. Years ago, they might have.

Rob

I think that you have raised an important issue here. I can't comment on Australia other than to say I would love to visit the country. But I will comment on the increasingly popular trend in the US to characterize all men as aggressors and therefore dangerous.It appears to me that the wrongful actions of a few have lead to perceptions that are unfair and in the long run dangerous.

Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,711
Re: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
« Reply #184 on: December 13, 2007, 02:25:13 pm »
I think that you have raised an important issue here. I can't comment on Australia other than to say I would love to visit the country. But I will comment on the increasingly popular trend in the US to characterize all men as aggressors and therefore dangerous.It appears to me that the wrongful actions of a few have lead to perceptions that are unfair and in the long run dangerous.

Underdown, brokeplex and others interested in this subject, may I suggest starting a new thread about it elsewhere? It's not connected to Alma Jr. and Ennis at all (as you've politely noted, Rob), and in fact it's not even connected to the mission of the Open Forum, which is to discuss the movie and story.

I'm sure the subject could generate lots of interesting conversation, including from people who aren't following this thread and therefore don't know it's going on. This topic might fit better in Anything Goes. If you do decide to start a new thread elsewhere, feel free to post a note about it here so those following this thread will know where to find it.

Artiste, I'd like to suggest that you do the same with your comments concerning the recent crimes and court cases that you've found disturbing. That sounds like a good topic for a conversation on the Current Events forum, or perhaps on your blog.

At BetterMost, we like to be easygoing about posts that occasionally stray off topic, but some of the conversations on this board of late are so distant from the topic, and have become so in-depth and prolific, that they are doing a disservice both to the "Alma Jr./Ennis" topic as well as to the conversations themselves, which might attract interest from lots of BetterMost members who won't know to look for them here.




Offline Phillip Dampier

  • Mayor - BetterMost, Wyoming
  • Town Administration
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 6,347
    • BetterMost
Re: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
« Reply #185 on: December 13, 2007, 05:36:10 pm »
You are right that Bettermost must continue to give us freedom of expression... if I read you right. I feel that it does, most of the time and at other moments, I know that I am helped and that I helped too others. May that continue... always!!

We have found ways to help each other and others. And my wish is to discover other wondrous methoeds too!!
I am sure that Bettermost also saves lives! Plus it makes us all happier somehow!!

Artiste, with great respect to you, I wanted to let you know that we do strive to permit as much freedom of expression and the chance to allow some topics to wander a bit off topic, but we have to balance that tolerance with the impact of off-topic messages derailing entire threads.

BetterMost has a large number of forums covering a wide variety of topics and issues.  To allow readers the opportunity to make the best use of our community, we ask those who write messages try to respect what each forum was designed to cover.  This forum, the Brokeback Mountain Open Forum, is for discussions directly relating to Brokeback Mountain, the story/movie and what it means and how it impacts on our lives.

Unfortunately, some of the topics that have appeared in this forum have absolutely nothing to do with the story at all.  While occasional off-topic comments are not a problem, when there are repeated instances of people posting messages that basically derail a thread's intended purpose, the moderator here may move those comments to a different forum, or move them to that person's personal blog in Our Daily Thoughts, especially when they are about one's personal life experiences.

Truthfully, more people will read those kinds of comments in Our Daily Thoughts than will see them here, and it also allows people focused on the story to remain focused on those issues and not get sidetracked.

We are a community and we all have to work together to make this place work.  We ask everyone to help us out by thinking carefully before posting a message that wanders completely off-topic, and consider where that message would best belong.  It helps get those messages read by people interested in those topics, and it makes everyone else happy by keeping things in the proper place.

I hope that clears up this issue.
You're a part of our family - BetterMost, Wyoming

Offline Artiste

  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • ********
  • Posts: 15,998
Re: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
« Reply #186 on: December 13, 2007, 07:32:31 pm »
Thanks Phillip Dampier!

I do not agree with you on that, even if I want to do so. And will explain further, for now your saying is this:
Artiste, with great respect to you, I wanted to let you know that we do strive to permit as much freedom of expression and the chance to allow some topics to wander a bit off topic, but we have to balance that tolerance with the impact of off-topic messages derailing entire threads.

BetterMost has a large number of forums covering a wide variety of topics and issues.  To allow readers the opportunity to make the best use of our community, we ask those who write messages try to respect what each forum was designed to cover.  This forum, the Brokeback Mountain Open Forum, is for discussions directly relating to Brokeback Mountain, the story/movie and what it means and how it impacts on our lives.



...................

Phillip and others: May I reply that we have that before and at fiest it worked on other threads!! But then we became limited by other threads and by some moderators!! Unfortunately!! And when I have hard subjects, I noticed that no one even dared to answer, because most persons are unfortunately afraid, yes like the ones on the BM movie.

If oyou, moderators and others on Bettermost, have noted, we like a bit of off-subjects, since we try to relate that the movie somehow, fortunately!!  That should remain the ONLY way to do so, for now. We feel free this way! Why kill a happy bird who was unhappy, may I suggest?? !!

Hugs! I awainting replies of yours an that of others!! Why kill Bettermost, when we are now happy using it and we all learn this way wondrous ways??  The BM movie and story, touches many things, you all know that, right?? Issues are important to us, and need to be writtien, detailed and to each his own to become happy, even gay, and help others too!! Why do you use the word tolorence? We want freedom, not anti-gay words nor anti-women words, bnor anti-children words... right?? Computor isjumping... so I am posting without coreecting...

hugs to you and to all! And will corect later somehow... if I made a mistake in wording or expression.

Offline cricket99999

  • Jr. Ranch Hand
  • **
  • Posts: 21
Re: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
« Reply #187 on: December 13, 2007, 08:30:00 pm »
I'm way late, but want to weigh in about Ennis missing work to attend Junior's wedding.

It doesn't have to be so black and white.  She most certainly can invite him, most of us invite people to special events we know have no chance of showing up, for whatever reason:

"Daddy I'm getting married.  Can you come give me away?"

"Oh honey, I gotta drive down in the Tetons."

"OK, well, when you're back why don't you come by and see our new place and the pictures of the wedding?"

That would seem to be more of a realistic dialogue and a compromise both would find acceptable given each other's circumstances.

That would be a bummer of an ending... it wouldn't work.  We need to see that Ennis is changing.

And for what it's worth, I *don't* think he quit a job to go to the wedding.

He opted out of a weekend of work, is how I saw it, based on what I've seen of roundups and cattle drives.

Where I lived, the cattle were rounded up twice a year, and each cattle drive was a one-shot thing, for that weekend only.  They were herded up to the mountains as weather was warming up.  Then they were driven downvalley end of summer.  It was only about forty miles, if that.  Cowboys were hired on a prn basis (or whatever that is called, in the ranching industry).  Some worked on ranches full-time, but others were cowboys only those two weekends per year.  If they could work that weekend, fine.  If not, fine.  They would likely be offered work the next time. either way.  Or offered work the next weekend, in a different valley.

I believe the script was written to suggest this type of roundup, alluding to it being just a weekend drive.  Ennis doesn't say "my boss really needs me to work that weekend." Instead he says something like  "there's a roundup in the Tetons I'm working that weekend."

Offline delalluvia

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,289
  • "Truth is an iron bride"
Re: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
« Reply #188 on: December 13, 2007, 08:40:37 pm »
I'm way late, but want to weigh in about Ennis missing work to attend Junior's wedding.
That would be a bummer of an ending... it wouldn't work.  We need to see that Ennis is changing.

No, we don't.  The story doesn't show Ennis changing, why should the movie?  It's a tragedy.  It's meant to be a bummer.

Quote
And for what it's worth, I *don't* think he quit a job to go to the wedding.

He opted out of a weekend of work, is how I saw it, based on what I've seen of roundups and cattle drives.

Where I lived, the cattle were rounded up twice a year, and each cattle drive was a one-shot thing, for that weekend only.  They were herded up to the mountains as weather was warming up.  Then they were driven downvalley end of summer.  It was only about forty miles, if that.  Cowboys were hired on a prn basis (or whatever that is called, in the ranching industry).  Some worked on ranches full-time, but others were cowboys only those two weekends per year.  If they could work that weekend, fine.  If not, fine.  They would likely be offered work the next time. either way.  Or offered work the next weekend, in a different valley.

I believe the script was written to suggest this type of roundup, alluding to it being just a weekend drive.

When did it allude to a weekend?  I haven't looked at a calendar - and neither did Ennis - but was it actually said the wedding was on a weekend?

And if it was just piecemeal weekend work, that even makes it worse for Junior to ask him to give up a weekend's work if that's all the work he's been able to get. 

Offline Phillip Dampier

  • Mayor - BetterMost, Wyoming
  • Town Administration
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 6,347
    • BetterMost
Re: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
« Reply #189 on: December 13, 2007, 10:00:35 pm »
Phillip and others: May I reply that we have that before and at fiest it worked on other threads!! But then we became limited by other threads and by some moderators!! Unfortunately!! And when I have hard subjects, I noticed that no one even dared to answer, because most persons are unfortunately afraid, yes like the ones on the BM movie.

If oyou, moderators and others on Bettermost, have noted, we like a bit of off-subjects, since we try to relate that the movie somehow, fortunately!!  That should remain the ONLY way to do so, for now. We feel free this way! Why kill a happy bird who was unhappy, may I suggest?? !!

But here is the problem.  A lot of people are unhappy with the amount of off-topic side issues raised in these threads which have absolutely nothing to do with the story.  They disrupt the entire discussion, and we've had complaints raised about this.  Nobody is telling you that you cannot raise any issue you wish, but it must be done in the appropriate place.  If I wrote, for example, a message in one of our online game forums discussing the fact I think global warming is a serious problem and we need to ban all cars because of it, there would be a lot of people wondering why in the world I am talking about global warming in an online game message.  Then we'd probably get 15 people replying arguing about whether global warming is a problem, what kind of car I am driving, why I wrote such a message in the first place, and is it censorship to remove it... everything discussed EXCEPT the original point of the thread - to play an online game.  So it basically ruins the game.

I don't think it is too much to ask everyone to consider the audience when replying to messages.  I always try and ask myself, "is this the right place for my message on this subject?"  It's not the right place if I were to write five paragraphs on global warming and then in the very last sentence, tell people I rolled the dice and got two "six's" and whose turn is it now.  :)

Quote
Hugs! I awainting replies of yours an that of others!! Why kill Bettermost, when we are now happy using it and we all learn this way wondrous ways??  The BM movie and story, touches many things, you all know that, right?? Issues are important to us, and need to be writtien, detailed and to each his own to become happy, even gay, and help others too!! Why do you use the word tolorence? We want freedom, not anti-gay words nor anti-women words, bnor anti-children words... right?? Computor isjumping... so I am posting without coreecting...

I agree that all of these issues are important.  Discussions about the story itself and its impact are quite appropriate in this forum.  Discussions about broader gay and lesbian issues should be raised in our Safe Haven forum.  If there is a political issue about anti-gay or anti-women matters, that belongs in the Current Events forum.  And issues that focus on your own life and experiences are best placed in your personal blog in Our Daily Thoughts.  That's where we all talk about what is going on in our daily lives and the problems we face.  I realize English is not your first/primary language, so if you have any questions about where a message would work best, just send me a note (or any of our moderators) and we'll be happy to guide you. It makes things better for everyone, and I am certain people will appreciate your effort.  I thank you!
You're a part of our family - BetterMost, Wyoming