TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?

[LauraGigs]

Still, maybe she's been raised to expect Ennis to quit jobs at the drop of a hat (since he clearly did this a lot in preparation for meetings with Jack).

Great point, Amanda.

Yes, the script ("I think I’m supposed to be on a roundup up near the Tetons") implies that it's a summer gig, similar to the job on Brokeback. All the quitting he did through the years obviously didn't destroy his career as a ranch hand. Quitting (or taking time off) this one for her wedding wouldn't, either.

The whole point of that scene is that Ennis is making a fundamental change: he'll no longer let chances to be together with loved ones pass him by. In the sweeping tragedy of Brokeback Mountain, it's the sole moment of redemption.

[Brown Eyes]

Do we really know that Ennis is "quitting" his job to go to the wedding?

I mean, sure, he could be, and perhaps we are supposed to assume that he is. We know that he's told Jack that when he was younger he quit jobs to go away with Jack, but maybe he quit those jobs not because he wanted to quit but because the ranch owner or foreman wouldn't let him take time off and then come back to work.

I'll admit I know next to nothing about the ranching industry today or in 1984, but it still strikes me as pretty heartless to tell somebody he can't take time off to attend his own daughter's wedding.

I'd been assuming that when he said that they could "find themselves a new cowboy" that he was implying that he would quit the job.  But, maybe you're right.  Maybe he wouldn't need to quit the whole job.


Laura, I completely agree that this scene is meant to show that Ennis has changed and that he continues to make an effort to change.  Both with his decision to attend Junior's wedding and with his moment with the shirts and articulating the "Jack, I swear...".

I still find it quite frustrating that Ennis's big moment of change comes just in time to celebrate what seems to be a very conventional marriage at the Methodist church (even).  In some ways it makes it seem that the only conclusion to this type of story is to have Ennis re-absorbed into a conventional role of father of the bride.  The resolution for Ennis as a gay man (and the question of what will he do now... as a gay man) remains very unsettled and tragic.  I'm sure the ambiguity of what his own future and personal happiness hold in store is exactly the point.

[Jeff Wrangler]

I still find it quite frustrating that Ennis's big moment of change comes just in time to celebrate what seems to be a very conventional marriage at the Methodist church (even).  In some ways it makes it seem that the only conclusion to this type of story is to have Ennis re-absorbed into a conventional role of father of the bride.  The resolution for Ennis as a gay man (and the question of what will he do now... as a gay man) remains very unsettled and tragic.  I'm sure the ambiguity of what his own future and personal happiness hold in store is exactly the point.

You might add, Whether he will even do anything as a gay man. It might be that the resolution doesn't even have anything to do specifically with being gay (which is perhaps part of the universality of the appeal of Brokeback Mountain). The resolution may not have anything to do with "coming out," but rather with being available to those who love us, which is a message for anybody, gay or straight.

[Brown Eyes]

You might add, Whether he will even do anything as a gay man. It might be that the resolution doesn't even have anything to do specifically with being gay (which is perhaps part of the universality of the appeal of Brokeback Mountain). The resolution may not have anything to do with "coming out," but rather with being available to those who love us, which is a message for anybody, gay or straight.

Hi Jeff,

Yes, I agree and understand the point you're making. 

And at the same time, I still find the end enormously frustrating (personally).  I'm not really even critiquing BBM for presenting the ending in this way...  I'm just expressing my own, probably very personal reaction.  For me, personally as a gay viewer, I still find it difficult that a movie that focuses on a gay love story as its main theme concludes with a resolution that focuses on a conventional marriage.  I'm sure this frustration is part of the point.  And, I'm sure many viewers (gay, straight, bi-, etc.) will see this whole scene very differently depending on their own issues and personal viewpoints.

[jstephens9]

I don't think they would have been speculating to any extent that was noticeable. After all, even now so many people think of gay men in terms of stereotypes that Ennis doesn't fit. Jack has only been in Riverton twice, and surely if anyone other than Alma saw them kissing that first time Ennis would have known about that by now. As for his not marrying again, this is a guy who's known to be very taciturn and something of a loner, so his not remarrying wouldn't necessarily surprise anybody.

And to add to this, many people have this idea that if a man has been married, has kids, etc. then he is automatically straight. There is no inbetween as these people see it. I myself have heard people say that so and so couldn't be gay because after all they have a wife. On top of this as you mention Ennis definitely does not fit the stereotypes of a gay man as many people see it. Again, I have heard people say that so and so couldn't be gay cause they don't act "that way." Finally, as Marge also points out, cowboys have always been seen as loners so not getting married would not translate to being gay.

[Artiste]

Thanks Jeff, and thanks others too!!

Jeff, you say this: I'll admit I know next to nothing about the ranching industry today or in 1984, but it still strikes me as pretty heartless to tell somebody he can't take time off to attend his own daughter's wedding.


...

...

Alma Jr. was not heartless like her mother was, and accepted her father's life as a bi or gay man; so, she got that her father will go to her wedding! There is a strong difference to her and her mother... because she educates herself!

You think so too?

Hugs!


Edit by Penthesilea:

I deleted a part of this post which was a multiple post and additionally was completely off topic in this thread. You can read the deleted part here: http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,15268.0.html

[jstephens9]

If you were reading the Bird, that must have been Hotlanta in the 1970s.   

She probably hadn't done any travelling other than Wyoming communities in the same region, such as Caspar. But I find it difficult to impossible to believe that a 19-year-old in the early 1980s would never have watched television and never heard the word "gay" used in a sexual orientation context on TV at least.  Riverton might not be a metropolis, but it isn't an Amish community or a monastary.  From your account, it sounds like you at least knew what the word 'gay' meant by the 1970s and I expect Alma Jr did too, even if she didn't know many details.

You do have a point there since I lived in a small city in the south and I had heard of the word. I didn't exactly know what it all meant, but I had a feeling it had something to do with me. And of course I was familiar with television and even then there were episodes of shows or movies that dealt with the subject. I remember a show called "Family" that had an episode where the son had a friend that came to visit who was gay. I loved that episode. I wish I knew where I could find it now since I would like to see it and see what I thought of it now. There was also a movie where this boy was visiting his father in San Francisco (I remember the cable cars  ). The father had a male lover and the boy was all upset. I'm not sure what the name of the movie was. And then of course there were the questionable music groups and singers such as Elton John, David Bowie, etc. So in thinking more about it I can see that Alma Jr. would have had to at least known of "gay" issues.

So you know of "The Bird?" At that point in time I considered Atlanta the biggest city in the world  And what is funny is that there are many people here that still consider Atlanta and Charlotte as the biggest cities in the world. Back then Charlotte was nowhere near as large as it is now. However, of course, neither are that big when you compare them to other places. Many people here don't do a lot of travel. Some have never left the county  In fact some from the outlying areas consider Asheville to be "the big city." I had culture shock the first time I visited my sister in Houston  I've come a long way since I can now visit and walk through New York City by myself 

[Jeff Wrangler]

Hi Jeff,

Yes, I agree and understand the point you're making. 

And at the same time, I still find the end enormously frustrating (personally).  I'm not really even critiquing BBM for presenting the ending in this way...  I'm just expressing my own, probably very personal reaction.  For me, personally as a gay viewer, I still find it difficult that a movie that focuses on a gay love story as its main theme concludes with a resolution that focuses on a conventional marriage.  I'm sure this frustration is part of the point.  And, I'm sure many viewers (gay, straight, bi-, etc.) will see this whole scene very differently depending on their own issues and personal viewpoints.

Well, we all do bring our own issues and viewpoints to this film, that's for sure. I see the point, but I'm afraid it really isn't an issue for me. I don't see Junior's wedding as the focus. I see the focus as Ennis is now making himself available to his daughter--something he didn't do in the scene in the pickup, after the date with Cassie, where Junior asked to come live with him. (BTW, I know I've written on this somewhere else, but for me, the whole point of the scene in the pickup is to set up the final scene with Junior.)

[Jeff Wrangler]

Like so much else in this film the sequence with Junior, Cassie, and Ennis is so rich.

Junior is clearly in a disappointed mood--at best--in the bar when she talks to Cassie. Clearly, she was anticipating some quality time alone with her father, and you can see her visibly deflate--you can almost hear the unspoken groan--when the pickup drives up and she sees Cassie in the passenger seat.

Her remark that Cassie is "good enough" for her father is certainly insulting to Cassie, but it doesn't say much about her father, either.

[jstephens9]

I agree Jeff. Junior is certainly not very happy at all about Cassie being in the pickup. That is clearly not what she expected or wanted her time with her father to consist of. As far as that scene goes, I don't think it would matter whether her father was gay or anything else. She was certainly not overjoyed with Cassie. She was also not at all happy that her father brought Cassie along.