TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?

[Jeff Wrangler]

I think how one perceives Jack's reactions in the back of the car, just goes right back into the never-ending debate about whether Jack is bisexual or really entirely gay.  If a viewer thinks he's bisexual they'll see it one way... and if they thinks he's gay they'll see it another way.

It all boils down to nuanced personal interpretations of things like facial expression.  Really, the debate could truly be endless...

I guess discussing Jack's sexual orientation is really OT for a thread about whether or not Lureen was pregnant, but as I read the above it occurred to me that there might also be a sort-of third option in addition to "bisexual" or "entirely gay," and that might be that Jack's sexual orientation evolves, or moves along the spectrum, as he ages, so that Jack at age 39, when his marriage has apparently gone pretty sour, might be "entirely gay," whereas Jack at age 20 maybe wasn't.

I guess I'm just wondering if perhaps for some people sexual orientation isn't necessarily "fixed" once for all but may change over time.

[serious crayons]

I guess I'm just wondering if perhaps for some people sexual orientation isn't necessarily "fixed" once for all but may change over time.

That could be.

Also, at 20 Jack didn't have Ennis in his life. Reestablishing his relationship with Ennis (not to mention Mexican prostitutes and Randall) may have made him "more gay."

I can't imagine Jack, going into Mexico, striking out with male prostitutes for some reason, saying, "Oh well!" and going for a female prostitute instead. Or taking up with LaShawn when Randall wasn't in town.

(But then again, I still think he was faking with Lureen!  )

[Jeff Wrangler]

(But then again, I still think he was faking with Lureen!  )

You think Ennis was faking it with Alma in the sledding scene?

(OK, OK, I'm guessing that scene was actually filmed  after Heath and Michelle already had something going. You can't fake the look on Ennis's face in that scene. Not even Heath is that good of an actor.)

[Brown Eyes]

Jeff, I think the suggestion that Jack's sexuality shifts over time makes good sense.  And, it is true as Katherine notes, that as far as he knew, Ennis was out of his life at the time that he met Lureen.

I still think that Jack was a bit caught up in Lureen's own excitement and momentum in the car scene.  My sense is that Jake is trying to convey a level of genuine surprise and maybe a little anxiety in his voice and facial expression during the car scene.  I always feel like Jack seems a bit overwhelmed. 

That said, Jack definitely seems more enthusiastic with Lureen than Ennis ever does with Alma (except for maybe the sledding scene that Jeff mentions).

Yes, Ennis is having fun sledding with Alma.   But sledding's not the same thing as having sex.  Ennis never seems to be super happy about sex or even kissing with Alma.  The wedding kiss seems incredibly awkward to me, and needless to say their encounters in bed that we see seem pretty dreadful.

[serious crayons]

Yes, Ennis is having fun sledding with Alma.   But sledding's not the same thing as having sex.  Ennis never seems to be super happy about sex or even kissing with Alma.  The wedding kiss seems incredibly awkward to me, and needless to say their encounters in bed that we see seem pretty dreadful.

That's exactly what I was going to say! (Well, pretty close, anyway.  )

I think Ennis feels genuine affection for Alma. And I can imagine two Platonic friends who feel affectionate toward each other behaving pretty much that same way on a fun sledding outing. So no need to fake anything there.

But I do think he's faking it when they're in the bedroom together.

[Brown Eyes]

 

It just occurs to me... re-reading the last few posts that, "sledding's not the same thing as having sex" is a pretty ridiculous phrase.  I love how BBM discussions bring things like this out sometimes.

 

Anyway, yes, I think Ennis genuninely feels affection for Alma.  But, I think the concept of a Platonic type of love or affection may be very accurate in describing his feelings for her.

[serious crayons]

It just occurs to me... re-reading the last few posts that, "sledding's not the same thing as having sex" is a pretty ridiculous phrase.  I love how BBM discussions bring things like this out sometimes.

 

Looked like some tough sledding for Ennis in the bedroom.

[Jeff Wrangler]

I still think that Jack was a bit caught up in Lureen's own excitement and momentum in the car scene.  My sense is that Jake is trying to convey a level of genuine surprise and maybe a little anxiety in his voice and facial expression during the car scene.  I always feel like Jack seems a bit overwhelmed.

I agree. I just don't think the surprise and anxiety indicate that he's faking or not liking what direction she's going.

That said, Jack definitely seems more enthusiastic with Lureen than Ennis ever does with Alma (except for maybe the sledding scene that Jeff mentions).

Yes, Ennis is having fun sledding with Alma.   But sledding's not the same thing as having sex.  Ennis never seems to be super happy about sex or even kissing with Alma.  The wedding kiss seems incredibly awkward to me, and needless to say their encounters in bed that we see seem pretty dreadful.

No, sledding isn't the same thing as having sex (Maybe it is?  ). But that's not quite what I meant. Except for the time that Ennis comes out on the landing and looks down at Jack in the parking lot, I think the sledding scene is the most genuinely happy look we see on Ennis in the film. He's not just having a good time with a platonic affection. He's in love (which is why I say I guess the scene was filmed after Heath and Michelle had something going).

Looked like some tough sledding for Ennis in the bedroom.

Tougher for Alma. Let's not forget what we see Ennis doing to her. 

[moremojo]

I guess I'm just wondering if perhaps for some people sexual orientation isn't necessarily "fixed" once for all but may change over time.

I think this is uncommon, but I do believe it happens sometimes. Former porn star and performance artist Annie Sprinkle is a good example of this. When she first became sexually active and involved in the sex industry, she was primarily interested in men, and though she performed sex acts with other women as part of her job, she writes that her heart was never in it. Today, she is overwhelmingly attracted to women, has a life partner who is a woman, and focuses primarily on women as her artistic collaborators and as her potential audience.

[Brown Eyes]

No, sledding isn't the same thing as having sex (Maybe it is?  ). But that's not quite what I meant. Except for the time that Ennis comes out on the landing and looks down at Jack in the parking lot, I think the sledding scene is the most genuinely happy look we see on Ennis in the film. He's not just having a good time with a platonic affection. He's in love

Well, I think a person can be really, truly genuininely happy in a state of platonic love.  I think platonic love can be blissful.  And, I do think Ennis loves Alma... in his own way.

I still think Ennis is having fun sledding.... but I don't know how this reflects the degree of his sexual attraction to Alma. 

Based on the actual sexual moments we witness between them, he seems pretty unhappy... has to visualize Jack (that's how I interpret the cut to the bull-riding during Ennis's early sex scene with Alma)... and of course, it's pretty awful for Alma herself.