Author Topic: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way  (Read 121651 times)

Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,711
Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #110 on: June 03, 2006, 10:54:41 am »

As to what everyone (Jack, Cassie, Alma) sees in Ennis; - I think they see or sense his *strength*. Not only the visible physical one, but his immense mental strength - coupled with strong *passion*. The guy is a veritable volcano of passion and emotions waiting to erupt, as he demonstrates in that one scene where it initially is Jack who holds back, not knowing how far he'll be allowed to go...... The ones who love Ennis are the ones who actually sense all of this, and probably think they can find the means to unlock his strength enough for it to also encompass them, to support them, to make them strong by extension. And they hope to find the means to unlock his emotional side aw well, something that only Jack actually manages to do, having the "right key to turn the lock tumblers". That's such an unbelievably apt image. All that passion Ennis keeps under lock and key.........

Unfortunately for everyone, Ennis uses nearly all his immense strength not on opening up and giving, but on keeping himself tightly in check, tying himself into knots, keeping his nature and passions repressed and out of sight away from everyone including himself, under such pressure that the eruptions are few but very spectacular.

Extremely well put, Mikaela. You've really captured his appeal. There was a similar discussion here a while back about why Jack and others would see in Ennis. To me it's obvious (and I'm not just talking about his appearance, though there is that, too). In fact, I was kind of amazed that anybody would question it. Yes, he's repressed and difficult, but his underlying passion is so evident that his difficult traits only add to his mystique.

Your use of the phrase "tying himself into knots" made me think of a double meaning to Jack's line, "Let's get, unless you want to sit around tying knots all day." That sort of summarizes their future relationship too, doesn't it?

Offline Meryl

  • BetterMost Supporter
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 12,205
  • There's no reins on this one....
Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #111 on: June 03, 2006, 12:48:41 pm »
Your use of the phrase "tying himself into knots" made me think of a double meaning to Jack's line, "Let's get, unless you want to sit around tying knots all day." That sort of summarizes their future relationship too, doesn't it?
Wow, that's a great observation, Katherine!  8)

The ones who love Ennis are the ones who actually sense all of this, and probably think they can find the means to unlock his strength enough for it to also encompass them, to support them, to make them strong by extension.

As usual, you hit the nail on the head, Mikaela.  There's monumental strength in Ennis, and who wouldn't want to be encompassed by it?  But as so often happens in a really great character, the opposite quality is also present--fragility--and I think that makes those who love Ennis want to reach out to him, much as they would to a hurt child, and be a comfort and help to him.  What a powerful combination!  Heath achieves this so superbly, too:  you can just see him clapping a lid on Ennis's fear and anger, clenching his jaw and putting on a hard or stoicly indifferent face; but suddenly there is the most beautiful soft, benevolent, cherishing look that comes into his eyes, coupled with a blindingly beautiful smile.   He makes this seemingly nondescript man infinitely desirable, to those with eyes to see.

His struggle is more with his own personal internalized homophobia and childhood demons, and that struggle has thankfully been put to rest there in the final scene. However by not making him rail against society’s homophobia at all, the message of the film becomes all the more heartbreaking...
That's so true!  And it makes me think of another line with a double meaning:  "I think my Dad was right."  :'(
Ich bin ein Brokie...

Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,711
Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #112 on: June 03, 2006, 08:34:58 pm »
But as so often happens in a really great character, the opposite quality is also present--fragility--and I think that makes those who love Ennis want to reach out to him, much as they would to a hurt child, and be a comfort and help to him.  What a powerful combination!

Meryl, this description is wonderful, too! That tough/fragile combination is really irresistable. That's why I find the scenes of emotional or vulnerable Ennis (the second tent scene, the alley, the Twist ranch, etc.) particularly compelling. Yet his emotions are usually at least partly hidden from everyone but us, the viewers.


Offline belbbmfan

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,354
  • A love that will never grow old
Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #113 on: June 04, 2006, 03:38:03 am »
Heath achieves this so superbly, too:  you can just see him clapping a lid on Ennis's fear and anger, clenching his jaw and putting on a hard or stoicly indifferent face; but suddenly there is the most beautiful soft, benevolent, cherishing look that comes into his eyes, coupled with a blindingly beautiful smile.   He makes this seemingly nondescript man infinitely desirable, to those with eyes to see.

Meryl, I couldn't agree more. I think the transformation from 'stoic' to 'desirable' in the scenes between the first and second tent scene shows what a great actor Heath Ledger is. Despite the storm of negative emotions he must have gone through (confusion, guilt, shame) after leaving Jack in the morning and going back to the sheep, iint the end, the only thing Ennis can do is give himself over to what he really wants: to be comforted and loved by Jack. And all of this accompanied by the beautiful music by Santaolalla. Truly wonderful.

'We're supposed to guard the sheep, not eat 'em'

Offline Mikaela

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,229
  • Unsaid... and now unsayable
Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #114 on: June 04, 2006, 08:30:21 am »
Quote
From Katherine
Your use of the phrase "tying himself into knots" made me think of a double meaning to Jack's line, "Let's get, unless you want to sit around tying knots all day." That sort of summarizes their future relationship too, doesn't it?

Yes it does - it's a double meaning line if there ever was one. Wonderful observation.  :)

I think my using the "tying himself in knots" line bears testament to how all these double meaning lines actuallly work their subtle ways on the viewers. That is not an expression I use very often - and it just seemed so appropriate there. No doubt Jack's line and its deeper significance helped me along though I'm not sure I was consciously aware of that at the time!


Quote
From Meryl
 But as so often happens in a really great character, the opposite quality is also present--fragility--and I think that makes those who love Ennis want to reach out to him, much as they would to a hurt child, and be a comfort and help to him.    [   ] ....suddenly there is the most beautiful soft, benevolent, cherishing look that comes into his eyes, coupled with a blindingly beautiful smile.   

**Takes time out for a mini Ennis swoon**

Meryl, what a lovely, perceptive post.   :)

Oh, the fragility - the fear of not measuring up, the loneliness, the self-doubt, - not to use stronger words....

I do wonder though whether Cassie and Alma realizes there's that fragile side of Ennis. He doesn't consciously *let* them see it, but female intuition and all....they should sense it. Somehow I don't think they ever see the depth of it, though.

But Jack certainly sees it, has seen it all the while since their first meeting. And just as importantly, as time goes by, Ennis *allows* Jack to see it. That stricken look of Ennis's after he's related the story of Rich and Earl - those little puffs of breath as he exhales after having kept himself tightly in check during that dreadful tale..... Jack reaching out gently to stroke his cheek...... still leaving Ennis space, but understanding, and showing he understands. Meep.

After all this time and so much discussion, this is still immensely powerful.

There's another scene and line where that fragility is apparent, where the double meaning stands out epecially because of the different reactions from the movie audience and the listener in the film: When Ennis says "Hell, that's the most I've spoke in a year", the cinema audiences have never failed to laugh heartily whenever I've seen the film. Heartily, but not long. It's a funny comeback, and there haven't been too many of those! Ordinarily, you'd expect the listener in the movie to laugh as well, because it's a joke, right? Ennis made a joke - wooo-wee! Or...did he? Jack's reaction, contrary to the audience's, is pensive, serious, compassionate, fond..... he knows that there's too much truth to what Ennis says, and that's not something to laugh about. He senses the overwhelming loneliness in the line. Because of that difference in reactions, the truth about the "joke" hits the audience quickly, and the laughter dies.......



Offline Meryl

  • BetterMost Supporter
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 12,205
  • There's no reins on this one....
Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #115 on: June 04, 2006, 03:27:20 pm »
I think the transformation from 'stoic' to 'desirable' in the scenes between the first and second tent scene shows what a great actor Heath Ledger is. Despite the storm of negative emotions he must have gone through (confusion, guilt, shame) after leaving Jack in the morning and going back to the sheep, iint the end, the only thing Ennis can do is give himself over to what he really wants: to be comforted and loved by Jack. And all of this accompanied by the beautiful music by Santaolalla. Truly wonderful.

You're right, belbbmfan, it does show Heath's greatness as an actor.  But even more, I think this is an example of the greatness of Ang Lee's and the screenwriters' genius in taking something that doesn't exist in the source material and creating a sequence that, when all is said and done, lays the groundwork for everything that follows. 

How do you convey to a film audience the exact point where friendship turns into romantic involvement?  It's right here that we are shown Ennis's conflict and Jack's anxiety and get a true sense of how much they care about each other, their touching vulnerability.  When Ennis sits down next to Jack on the mountain, the suspense is incredible, and it's only completely relieved when he kneels outside the tent that night.  Throughout the whole sequence, the music supports the emotional undercurrents superbly.  This for me is where Movie Ennis and Jack soar way beyond Story Ennis and Jack and enter another plane entirely.

Quote
In the end, the only thing Ennis can do is give himself over to what he really wants: to be comforted and loved by Jack

This is what I love about Movie Ennis and Jack.  They don't just treat the sex as recreational, as in the story.  There's a silent acknowledgement of its seriousness, as the eye contact and tender kissing in the second tent scene shows.  Without this, I know I wouldn't have cared as much about them, cried over them, been haunted by them (and over-analyzed them).  I'm just really, really glad Ang Lee knew how important this was and insisted on including it, not to mention the fact that in Heath and Jake we were given actors who could make it all work so beautifully.

Quote
From Mikaela
There's another scene and line where that fragility is apparent, where the double meaning stands out epecially because of the different reactions from the movie audience and the listener in the film: When Ennis says "Hell, that's the most I've spoke in a year", the cinema audiences have never failed to laugh heartily whenever I've seen the film.....Jack's reaction, contrary to the audience's, is pensive, serious, compassionate, fond..... he knows that there's too much truth to what Ennis says, and that's not something to laugh about. He senses the overwhelming loneliness in the line.

Great example, Mikaela.  I love the way they tread lightly around each other's personality quirks or flaws.  No finger pointing or laughing, snide comments, etc.  Ennis is reasonably tactful about Jack's bad shooting/getting thrown by the mare/playing bad harmonica, too.  ;)
Ich bin ein Brokie...

Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,711
Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #116 on: June 04, 2006, 06:27:38 pm »
There's another scene and line where that fragility is apparent, where the double meaning stands out epecially because of the different reactions from the movie audience and the listener in the film: When Ennis says "Hell, that's the most I've spoke in a year", the cinema audiences have never failed to laugh heartily whenever I've seen the film. Heartily, but not long. It's a funny comeback, and there haven't been too many of those! Ordinarily, you'd expect the listener in the movie to laugh as well, because it's a joke, right? Ennis made a joke - wooo-wee! Or...did he? Jack's reaction, contrary to the audience's, is pensive, serious, compassionate, fond..... he knows that there's too much truth to what Ennis says, and that's not something to laugh about. He senses the overwhelming loneliness in the line. Because of that difference in reactions, the truth about the "joke" hits the audience quickly, and the laughter dies.......

Great example, Mikaela! I don't know if I've heard audiences laugh (the audiences I've seen it with are apparently a pretty somber bunch), but you are exactly right that it goes from being a light, funny line to one with more depth and seriousness and meaning. It's there in Jack's pensive reaction, but also in Ennis' face: that quick half smile, then the long direct "Yeah, I'm serious" look that follows.

I would say that tough/fragile contrast in Ennis is apparent in lots of scenes. Outside Aguirre's trailer, he's simultaneously both the cool iconic Marlboro Man cowboy and a pathologically shy introvert. In the bar with Jack, he starts out pretty taciturn, but you see him gradually warming up, hardly believing that anyone would be interested enough in him to ask about his life and offer sympathy.

This is what I love about Movie Ennis and Jack.  They don't just treat the sex as recreational, as in the story.  There's a silent acknowledgement of its seriousness, as the eye contact and tender kissing in the second tent scene shows.  Without this, I know I wouldn't have cared as much about them, cried over them, been haunted by them (and over-analyzed them).  I'm just really, really glad Ang Lee knew how important this was and insisted on including it, not to mention the fact that in Heath and Jake we were given actors who could make it all work so beautifully.

Wow, Meryl! You have really nailed it. I am also one of those who loves Movie Ennis and Jack much more than their story counterparts (shhh, don't tell TJ). I've always chalked it up to the movie characters having more depth and complexity and wrestling with more profound issues (particularly, Movie Ennis' internalized homophobia, which changes it from a story about how intolerance obstructs human lives, to a story about how intolerance warps human souls.)

But you are so right -- a big difference is in their attitude toward sex, which in the story seems a basically recreational activity but in the movie becomes a more serious expression of love. (The story may well intend to suggest that, too, but that idea does not come across as powerfully for me.)

Offline Brown Eyes

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,377
Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #117 on: June 04, 2006, 08:43:27 pm »
This is what I love about Movie Ennis and Jack.  They don't just treat the sex as recreational, as in the story.  There's a silent acknowledgement of its seriousness, as the eye contact and tender kissing in the second tent scene shows.  Without this, I know I wouldn't have cared as much about them, cried over them, been haunted by them (and over-analyzed them).  I'm just really, really glad Ang Lee knew how important this was and insisted on including it, not to mention the fact that in Heath and Jake we were given actors who could make it all work so beautifully.

Heya,
I'm back from a weekend away... and again I feel like there's sooo much to catch up on here! 

I'll second what Katherine said about this observation, Meryl.   I agree, that Lee goes a long way towards making their relationship (physical and otherwise) seem profoundly serious (even in the lighthearted moments... which are often hardly lighthearted once you stop and think about them).  I've/ we've noted before that the flashback scene seems much improved in the movie by Ennis straining to try to look at Jack in the face (in profile) during the hug, whereas in the book Ennis avoids looking at Jack's face.  In fact, all the deep eye contact especially in the 2nd tent scene cements the seriousness of what they're doing I think.  Eye contact is a huge factor in their initial bonding too.  I think it's very smart to point out Jack's sympathetic look towards Ennis as Ennis half-jokes about "that's the most I've spoke in a year."  Ennis notices the eye contact and responds to it.  Seeing that sweet look on Jack's face I'm sure went a long way towards Ennis feeling even more comfortable opening up further to Jack.

This issue of "lighthearted" moments that really aren't so lighthearted afterall is interesting in relation to the topic of this thread I think.  Even Jack goofing around and mimicking what it's like to ride a bull contains a nugget of saddness in it.  First of all, he's responding to some serious teasing from Ennis.  Ennis glances in a sly way over his cup at Jack after he says the thing about his Dad thinking rodeo cowboys were f*** ups.  Ennis here is insulting something that's deeply important to Jack... yet instead of really getting angry (as he could have done), Jack sort of swallows the insult and takes the opportunity to draw Ennis out more (to make him laugh).  But, we all know also that Jack isn't really the most skilled rodeo cowboy... and so his joke about the hitting the dashboard is a bit of sad self-awareness maybe.  And the fact that he falls down even in pretending to ride a bull, I think signals Jack's general struggles as an "underdog" figure plagued by disappointment.  As Jake has said, Jack seems to be trying all the time to make things work (in bull riding, in his relationship with Ennis's etc.) and in most cases his efforts aren't rewarded in quite the ways that he hopes.  I mean, as far as Ennis goes, his efforts are certainly rewarded in some ways (he knows Ennis loves him and they manage to have their strained relationship as we've seen), but he doesn't really get the commitment he wanted (well, until after he died).  And with the rodeo, well, we see him win one rodeo so sometimes it works out.  But, like a lot of other things in his life, you get the sense that the rodeo just turns into yet another disappointment.

"The rodeo ain't what it was in my Daddy's day."

the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline Brown Eyes

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,377
Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #118 on: June 05, 2006, 08:02:43 pm »
OK... new double meaning line (forgive me if this has been hashed out already, but it's been on my mind lately).

"This is a one shot thing we got goin' on here."

Does Ennis mean (at this precise moment when he says it) that he doesn't intend to have sex with Jack again.  As in- "that was the only time that will happen"- i.e. "It was a mistake and I was drunk."  Or, does he mean "you're the only man I'll have sex with (this is an anomaly in my life)."  Or, does he mean "we'll only do this up here on Brokeback and once the summer is over, we're over." ??
 ???

Most importantly... how does Jack hear this line?  It's unclear to me.  He changes the topic a bit with the "nobody's business but ours" line.  Our boys are often changing the topic in coversations with one another (in the motel, etc.).  Does this conversation lead to some of the confusion at the end of the Brokeback summer?

And perhaps most confusingly... the screenwriters give the "one shot" line to Ennis, but in Proulx's story Jack says it.
the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,711
Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #119 on: June 05, 2006, 10:39:09 pm »
Does Ennis mean (at this precise moment when he says it) that he doesn't intend to have sex with Jack again.  As in- "that was the only time that will happen"- i.e. "It was a mistake and I was drunk."  Or, does he mean "you're the only man I'll have sex with (this is an anomaly in my life)."  Or, does he mean "we'll only do this up here on Brokeback and once the summer is over, we're over." ??

I pick C, it's just for the summer. He does intend to continue the thing for now, though. He knows how he feels about Jack and realizes that this is a big chance for him (Ennis) to be 19 and do what he wants. But he's also cognizant of his upcoming marriage, and believes that once they descend back into society that's all over, "this thing" can't work.

Quote
Most importantly... how does Jack hear this line?  It's unclear to me.  He changes the topic a bit with the "nobody's business but ours" line.

Hmm. A little less clearcut, but I am guessing Jack is being very careful to tread lightly here and not hit that startle point. Hence the "Me neither." So while maybe he doesn't want to acquiesce too readily to a summer-only agreement, possibly holding out hope for beyond that, he certainly can't risk saying so. Best to change the subject.

Quote
And perhaps most confusingly... the screenwriters give the "one shot" line to Ennis, but in Proulx's story Jack says it.

IMO, some of those changes came from a decision that I suspect the filmmakers made to make Jack's and Ennis' characters more distinct. In the story, they seem more distinguished by their actions than their personalities (Jack wants to live together, Ennis doesn't). But in the film, they're immediately recognizable as very different people. I think outlining those differences led to rearranging some of the lines.