Author Topic: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way  (Read 121661 times)

Offline nakymaton

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Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #130 on: June 06, 2006, 02:39:54 pm »
First, to goadra for "Your folks just stop at Ennis?":  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Second, about the one shot deal: I just had a sudden realization of why I interpret it as Ennis saying "this happened once, and won't happen again." Let's just say that I'm projecting, and although I know that at some level I'm always projecting my own stuff onto the characters, in this case I now know exactly what I'm projecting and why. (Though, just to play devil's advocate for a bit, what if Jack interpreted the statement followed by the 2nd tent scene to mean that Ennis had changed his mind about the "one shot deal," or that he didn't really mean it? Then Jack's actions that last day might make more sense. Maybe?? ;D Oh, hell, maybe I'd better just accept that I'll make any excuse necessary for that pair of pretty blue eyes and give it up. ;D )

Penthesilea - the elk/moose confusion makes sense. I think "elk" describes different animals in American and British English, though I can never remember which animal also lives in Europe. The British colonists mis-identified half the large hoofed mammals in America, I think... though there aren't elk (wapiti) out East now, and I don't think there were back then. Moose, white-tailed deer, caribou/reindeer, but I don't think there were elk. But I can never keep the history and the biology straight. Anyway, digression there...

So here's a question, especially for you story fans (Mel?). How much of this emotional/psychological stuff is there in the story, and how much is fully developed only in the film? Of course, the basic plot is certainly all there in the story. But I'll have to say that when I read it, I do not get as vivid a sense of how much Ennis' father's actions and attitudes emotionally damaged his son. I read it more simply: having witnessed Earl's awful fate, Ennis quite understandably considered it too dangerous to live with Jack. But I admit I don't fully appreciate the story as much as I should or could, so maybe I just didn't grasp this aspect in enough depth.

Well, part of Mikaela's brilliant post ( 8) ) deals with the contrast between the way Ennis appears to like his father, and the horrid experience his father subjected him to. The horrid experience is there in the story, but the contrast isn't, because none of the characters are as likeable as in the movie. (Not even Ennis and Jack, I think.) Annie Proulx just doesn't write likeable characters very much; she seems to have a really unsentimental (to say the least) view of human nature. (In fact, I think she's said that Ennis and Jack were the first of her characters that she fell in love with... and even then, only after she saw the movie. ! BTW, Katherine, I get the impression that AP is quite a Heathen herself after seeing the movie.  8) ) So perhaps it doesn't carry as much emotional weight because I didn't necessarily expect for a parent/child relationship to be anything better than mildly dysfunctional in one of AP's stories?

On the other hand, the story has another description of an incident that left Ennis emotionally damaged: the description of learning to punch K.E. comes right before the description of Earl and Rich's fate.

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Dad says, you got a take him unawares, don't say nothin to him, make him feel some pain, get out fast and keep doin it until he takes the message. Nothin like hurtin somebody to make him hear good.

That's not the same sort of abuse as taking a child to see a murdered man, but, geez. "Nothin like hurtin somebody to make him hear good?" And that's the explanation for Ennis's "dirty punch" -- the punch on the last day on the mountain. Between those two lessons, yeah, I think Ennis was pretty emotionally damaged. That's where I've gotten the idea that Ennis was trying to beat his own sexuality (and his love for Jack) into submission when he hit Jack... and every other time Ennis got into a fight, too.

It's not the same thing as the tension between loving a father and being emotionally abused by him, though.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #131 on: June 06, 2006, 06:03:36 pm »
BTW, Katherine, I get the impression that AP is quite a Heathen herself after seeing the movie.

 :laugh: I've gotten that impression, too -- especially from her quote about how he came to understand the character better than she did.   :-*  Well, she is a woman over 35, so according to highly scientific research here at BetterMost, it's not statistically unlikely ...  :laugh:

Offline Mikaela

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Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #132 on: June 06, 2006, 06:18:16 pm »
Thanks for kind words on my previous post. :)

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From Penthesilea       

And, at their last evening together, they let Jack say "Everytime I go to see the ranchneighbour's wife, somebody shoots at me."

LOL! Somehow, that scene is the saddest one in the whole film to me - there's a deep melancholy and resignation there that is utterly painful. But hearing Jack say *that* every time would change that mood a bit for sure. Especially with Ennis laughing at it, too!  :o


Quote
From Nakymaton quoting Annie Proulx   
Dad says, you got a take him unawares, don't say nothin to him, make him feel some pain, get out fast and keep doin it until he takes the message. Nothin like hurtin somebody to make him hear good.

In addition to what you say about this scene, Mel - which I completely agree with - there's another point to it that pertains to Ennis's relationship with his father. Ennis in the short story tells Jack how his father taught him to use his fists to solve the problem with his older brother beating on him all the time (emphasis mine):
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When I was about six he set me down and says, Ennis you've got a problem and you got a fix it or it's going to be with you until you're ninety.....
Another instance of high tragic irony there, that Ennis's father once showed him that if you can't stand it, you've got to fix it - *and* even when it may seem impossible, there's actually a possibility of fixing it!


Quote
From Nakymaton     

the description of learning to punch K.E. comes right before the description of Earl and Rich's fate.
And the short story has one sentence that I find the most chilling of all in that sorry tale of murder and child abuse. Ennis is telling Jack about that incident when his father took his sons to see the murdered man, and among other things he says:
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Dad laughed about it.
Yeah, that Mr. Del Mar sure knew how to raise his sons right!  >:( >:(


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From Nakymaton

That's where I've gotten the idea that Ennis was trying to beat his own sexuality (and his love for Jack) into submission when he hit Jack... and every other time Ennis got into a fight, too.
Oh, what an observation that is - the most horrible win-win situation ever: If Ennis gets into a fight over some remark pertaining to his sexuality and wins, he's reaffirmed his manhood. But if he loses, he'ss thereby been helped with beating that unwanted part of his mind and psyche into submission. **shudders**


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From nakymaton

Annie Proulx just doesn't write likeable characters very much; she seems to have a really unsentimental (to say the least) view of human nature.

That's almost an understatement....... Reading the rest of "Close Range" depressed me so much, I could hardly stand it, it got me so disillusioned with human nature because of that unsentimental, frank and chilling description of the characters and their relationships. Her writing is fabulous, but her characters and story lines are far from the fairy tales, that's for sure......

~~~~


OK, perhaps a return to "Double Meanings" for me after all of that?

There are a number of lines that carry double meanings because they help bridging scenes, and so can be taken at face value or as a comment to the upcoming or previous scene. I think one of my favourites in that regard is Ennis rushing down the stairs and calling back to Alma concerning the cigarettes:

"They're in the bedroom."

And sure enough, in the next scene we get they *are* in the bedroom. At the Siesta.  ;)
« Last Edit: June 06, 2006, 06:22:24 pm by Mikaela »

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #133 on: June 06, 2006, 07:20:29 pm »
And sure enough, in the next scene we get they *are* in the bedroom. At the Siesta.  ;)

And smoking!  :-*

Offline Mikaela

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Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #134 on: June 06, 2006, 07:26:48 pm »
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And smoking!

 ;D    ;D


Sure enough!

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #135 on: June 07, 2006, 12:13:54 am »
Man, this movie is so incredibly ambiguous. I see the exact same scene and read it as, Ennis sitting by the campfire already knows that he wants to go into the tent but he's really nervous about it -- not just because he's homophobic but because this is something he's never done before (maybe with a woman, either) and he's both excited and fearful. When he finally does go in, he is perfectly willing but it's such a foreign experience for him that he's not exactly sure how to proceed and it takes him a while to relax into it. But, with help from Jack's "s'alrights," he does!

Before I respond to all the other conversation that's taken place since this comment... I just want to jump in and say that this is exactly how I read Ennis's behavior on the night of the 2nd tent scene too. To me his awkwardness is all about being nervous.  His little glance towards the tent to see what Jack's doing just speaks volumes to me about Ennis's "desire" here.  Also, we've talked before about how in this scene Ennis is warm (the fire is still high) and Jack does not call to him or overtly suggest that he come into the tent.  Ennis makes the move all on his own and without anything like "being cold" as an excuse.  This leads back into the contrasts between tent scene #1 and #2 (which is a whole topic of its own).  But, to pick up on nakymaton's point... at the exact moment that Ennis says "one shot deal" on the hillside... I still don't know what he's thinking.  Maybe he's so confused he doesn't know what he means himself. 

It's cute that they feel they need to have a conversation about it though... any conversation.  I also love that Jack went up the mountain to the sheep to sort of demonstrate his eagerness to guage Ennis's state of mind and that Ennis felt compelled to go and acknowledge the need to talk.

I'll have to come back to this thread tomorrow to jump into the rest of the conversation.  Gotta go grab 40 winks.
 :)
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Offline Mikaela

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Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #136 on: June 07, 2006, 06:12:50 am »
Quote
Ennis and Jack both use that phrase, and both talk about getting killed for it (Jack jokingly).

Very interesting. I hadn't made that connection.

I don't think they use the phrase the same way  - I think Jack is all too aware that the strength of his and Ennis's passion is as a blazing camp fire compared to the flickering match of what he's got going with Randall. So on the surface the expression is an euphemism in both cases for a connection with another, that they can't (Ennis) or won't(Jack) be more specific about when speaking out loud.

I do think that there may be a deliberate foreshadowing and foreboding in its use, though. Perhaps a symbolic warning to Ennis of what is to come, though if he ever realized that it wasn't till after Jack was dead.  :'(  The link in Ennis's mind between his particular use of the "this thing" expression and the immediate risk of gay bashing/death occurring is direct and strong. When Jack later uses the expression, it's about a relationship that doesn't carry the same depth of emotion or passion (IMO), - but it nevertheless carries exactly the same *risk* of gay bashing and death.

In fact, it's likely that it was Jack's "thing" with Randall that did get Jack killed.  (From information about deleted scenes/ shooting script I've seen,  it seems the film originally intended to be much less ambiguous about Jack's fate and the fact that he was gay bashed due to someone seeing him with Randall).
« Last Edit: June 07, 2006, 06:17:53 am by Mikaela »

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #137 on: June 07, 2006, 08:34:05 am »
I wasn’t sure where to ask this, but I’ve been wondering about “this thing.” Ennis and Jack both use that phrase, and both talk about getting killed for it (Jack jokingly). When Ennis uses it, he’s clearly talking about something serious. Jack’s surface meaning is that his “thing” is just a fling (Ennis takes it that way), but is there a double meaning, too? I really don’t like the idea of his using the phrase the same way as Ennis (no offense to Randall).

This thing: Good ideas, goadra and Mikaela. I agree they're not using the phrase the same way. But now that you point out the reference in both cases to gay bashing -- Jack unwittingly, of course -- I don't think it's accidental. In both cases it actually refers to gay relationship, and maybe Jack's use is a symbolic tipoff that his fling with the ranch foreman's wife is actually with the ranch foreman. Not that anyone would get it, neither Ennis nor 99.9 percent of the audience, but when did that ever stop them?

And goadra, I like your other translations, too! Cassie's "you're safe" could actually be read both ways -- with her, he's safe from other people's suspicions.

And "this ain't no rodeo" -- that's a nice reading of it. I'd like to hear nakymaton's other suggestions, as well. The whole lassooing thing -- Ennis casually tossing the first loop off, but then getting caught in the second, but fighting back -- seems kind of laden with subtext, doesn't it?

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #138 on: June 08, 2006, 12:32:12 am »
I can’t possibly address all the comments that have arrived today, so I’ll just post a few “double meaning” ideas (and then maybe get some sleep).

  • “I don’t need your money.” >> “It’s you I need.”
  • “This ain’t no rodeo, cowboy.” >> “What happened this summer means a lot more than ridin’ some piece of stock for 8 seconds.” (nakymaton suggested a couple others a while back)
  • “You’re wasting your time here.” >> “Working for me is a waste of your time.”
  • “Take your friend to the Knife & Fork.” >> If Alma said this after meeting Jack, she’d probably mean a real knife and fork.
  • “Oh, you got a kid?” >> “You’re more tied down than I thought.”
  • “You’re safe.” (Cassie) >> “Don’t worry, you’re not going to fall in love with me.”

I wasn’t sure where to ask this, but I’ve been wondering about “this thing.” Ennis and Jack both use that phrase, and both talk about getting killed for it (Jack jokingly). When Ennis uses it, he’s clearly talking about something serious. Jack’s surface meaning is that his “thing” is just a fling (Ennis takes it that way), but is there a double meaning, too? I really don’t like the idea of his using the phrase the same way as Ennis (no offense to Randall).

These are all great suggestions!  I like the "ain't no rodeo" idea and the "don't need your money" idea. 

I translate the words "thing" and "this" as "attraction," "affair", or even "love" depending on the circumstance.  In the motel Jack says "swear to God, I didn't know we were going to get into this again..." I see this word as parallel to Ennis's "thing."  It's interesting that Jack never says the word "love" to Ennis in the movie either (but we all tend to focus on this problem with Ennis's language towards Jack).  It seems that Jack's expression of affection is much less ambiguous than Ennis's (and the "sometimes I miss you so much..." line comes pretty close to "I love you"... I wonder if he was weighing whether or not he could safely say "I love you" to Ennis during that conversation).  But, Jack's still a little conflicted in his language too (often I do think this is because he's being very careful in always guaging how he thinks Ennis will react to certain things).  Here in the motel when Jack says "this" it's intriguingly coupled with "swear".  I keep coming back to this line, which seems fun and lighthearted of course, as also very significant. 
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #139 on: June 08, 2006, 12:39:54 am »
Here in the motel when Jack says "this" it's intriguingly coupled with "swear".  I keep coming back to this line, which seems fun and lighthearted of course, as also very significant. 

What I like is, it's the one time Jack seems more coy than Ennis. He may have redlined it, but Ennis was the one who got into this again, with no hesitation!

Mmm. I just love the reunion scene.  :-*