Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way

[nakymaton]

Another of those bridging scenes double meanings: LaShawn says "....boy, were we behind the times". And the film cuts directly to someone else who's behind the times - Alma Jr., waiting for her daddy and apparently behind the times when it comes to recent developments (ie. Ennis having hooked up with Cassie).

Really? You think Alma Jr. didn't know Ennis was seeing Cassie? I thought that Jr's expression said "oh, god, not HER again." Whether it's normal teenaged child-of-divorce jealousy, or whether Jr had a particular insight into her father, I don't know. (She seems like a really perceptive kid, doesn't she? I wonder how she would have interacted with Jack, if Ennis had ever given them more than two seconds to interact. I mean, she seems very perceptive, very caring, and very very fond of her father. And yet she's very much a product of her world... marrying a roughneck at age nineteen (!). (I'm a year or two younger than Jr, and grew up in a rural area, and marrying young versus going to college was a huge dividing line between my peers and me.) And, well... the kids I grew up with would not have been accepting of Ennis and Jack. I'm not proud of that; I'm ashamed to have grown up surrounded by that. But there it is.)

"Two guys living together - no way" doesn't only apply to what society at large would think about it, but to what Ennis himself truly believes as well, and the shame he can't manage to shake or alter even when the love of his life is at stake - till it's too late.

That's how I read Ennis, as well. "Tied up in knots" is a really great way to describe him -- to acknowledge the contradictions between loving Jack (which he certainly does) and all the complicated shame and self-loathing that's there in Ennis as well.

[Meryl]

From Mikaela
I know Ennis uses the tire iron and risk of being killed as his reason for keeping Jack at a distance, but that's not the only or even main reason, IMO. He'd not be that afraid of physical violence and standing up to the threat of physical violence if he'd known himself to be in the right. But he doesn't  - some significant part of him thinks they'd be right for coming after him with tire irons, if he should decide to have a go at the "sweet life" that Jack wants. "Two guys living together - no way" doesn't only apply to what society at large would think about it, but to what Ennis himself truly believes as well, and the shame he can't manage to shake or alter even when the love of his life is at stake - till it's too late.

Too true.  I think Ennis suffered from low self-esteem from childhood on (his habit of keeping to himself was a product of it).  His marriage helped heal that, gave him an accepted place in society and a wife and children who looked up to him.  When he made the decision to continue his homosexual relationship with Jack, he put that in danger. 

To preserve his tenuous hold on self-esteem, he had to look down on Jack as one of "those boys" and think of his passion for Jack only as "this thing."  If he were to set up housekeeping with Jack, then of course his family and friends would know he was one of "those boys," too.   Being the object of their contempt (and by association, his father's) was an insurmountable horror to him, a betrayal of his deepest wish to be accepted and respected in his life. 

The fact that he continued to take the risk of meeting Jack over the years was a testimony to how much Jack meant to him.  But I do think he blinded himself for a long time to the fact that what he felt for Jack was more than physical passion and friendship.  He was forced to acknowledge this by two things:  Alma's "outing" him at Thanksgiving, and when Jack finally hinted that he was ready to "quit" Ennis.  After this, he had to admit to himself that he was never going to fit in like he wanted to.  He belonged on Jack's side of the fence, and there was no more denying it.

[Brown Eyes]

That's how I read Ennis, as well. "Tied up in knots" is a really great way to describe him -- to acknowledge the contradictions between loving Jack (which he certainly does) and all the complicated shame and self-loathing that's there in Ennis as well.

Hey there Nakymaton, Meryl and Mikaela,

Wow, you've all made great points.  This topic leads in some pretty depressing directions.    The one common denominator I think is just how tormented Ennis is.  The knots metaphor seems just right. 

Alma's "outing" him at Thanksgiving, and when Jack finally hinted that he was ready to "quit" Ennis.  After this, he had to admit to himself that he was never going to fit in like he wanted to.  He belonged on Jack's side of the fence, and there was no more denying it.

Meryl, I think this is also very good.  I wonder if there was a moment earlier in the film though when Ennis first got a taste of worrying about possibly losing Jack.  I've always wondered about the way Ennis says "Jack" so emphatically in the post-divorce fiasco scene.  When Jack turns to go Ennis says 'Jack' and has a really concerned look on his face.  I mean he's been concerned during this whole encounter, but it seems pretty clear to me that he shifts his worry (appropriately) away from the passing truck to worrying about what he's doing to Jack. 

[Mikaela]

Amanda, Mel, Meryl: Great and insightful posts.   

Really? You think Alma Jr. didn't know Ennis was seeing Cassie? I thought that Jr's expression said "oh, god, not HER again." Whether it's normal teenaged child-of-divorce jealousy, or whether Jr had a particular insight into her father, I don't know. (She seems like a really perceptive kid, doesn't she? I wonder how she would have interacted with Jack, if Ennis had ever given them more than two seconds to interact. I mean, she seems very perceptive, very caring, and very very fond of her father. And yet she's very much a product of her world... marrying a roughneck at age nineteen (!).

Yes, the bright Alma Jr. marrying at age ninteen is one of the events that really remind me that the world of rural Wyoming in the 1980's does not equal my own experiences and recollection of that time - I'm of an age with Junior and I don't personally know a single person of my age group that got married at that age, whether they contiued their education post high school or not. Marrying in your teens? Nope. Very rarely seen. Someone like Alma Jr. would certainly not have done so. It's one of many little reminders to me that I can't completely relate to and understand this world and this place and the character's background and reactions  - however much I'd like to think so, and however much I feel I know all the characters personally. All the more do I appreciate the perspectives of all of you here on this board!  And then, the underlying themes are universal at any rate.

That aside, I got the feeling that Junior was happily anticipating a day alone with her dad, and that her heart fell when this woman was sitting in the car. However, Cassie picks up Ennis in 1978 and the Junior/Cassie/Ennis scene is in 1979, so you're right that Junior must have heard of Cassie before then. Perhaps she'd never actuallly *met* her though - until that point in time.

It's intrigueing to try and decipher Junior's words and actions in relation to Cassie, - how much is girlish jealousy and how much is a deeper (perhaps subconscious) understanding that Cassie is not right for Ennis, that he needs someone and something entirely else. Both the " not the marrying kind" line and her asking to be allowed to move in with Ennis could be seen as related to either such interpretation.

I think Jack would have charmed the socks off Junior, if given half the chance, and if she'd been able to look past the "queer" issue for a moment. And I think she would have been able to do that, and her sister too. When beloved family is involved, it's much more difficult to ride the principled high horse. (Doesn't even the Vice President of the USA prove that?) I think his daughters would have loved Ennis even if they'd learned the truth. I like them; - I can't bring myself to believe anything else. Rural Wyoming or no.

[Brown Eyes]

I think Jack would have charmed the socks off Junior, if given half the chance, and if she'd been able to look past the "queer" issue for a moment. And I think she would have been able to do that, and her sister too. When beloved family is involved, it's much more difficult to ride the principled high horse. (Doesn't even the Vice President of the USA prove that?) I think his daughters would have loved Ennis even if they'd learned the truth. I like them; - I can't bring myself to believe anything else. Rural Wyoming or no.

Heya,

I like to think that Jack is the type who's really good with kids in general (even though Proulx tells us he never really wanted kids of his own).  His concern over Bobby's troubles in school, I'm sure, is meant to show us that Jack's trying to be a responsible parent... and the scene where he lets Bobby drive the tractor for a second certainly shows us that he was fun around kids too.  I wonder if Ennis was curious about Jack's family.  Jack at least had the insight of getting to meet not only Alma but also the girls... if only briefly.

Ennis's statement to Jack about kids during the second-to-last camping trip has always struck me as odd.  So, I'll bring it up here... not quite a double meaning... but a meaning that I wonder about.  He comes out with that sort of convoluted, sarcastic remark that goes something like... "Sure, and you could try to convince Alma to let you and Lureen adopt the girls. And money would rain down from L.D. Newsome and we could just live together herding sheep and whiskey would flow in the stream..."

When you think about it... this is a really wierd thing for Ennis to even think of... why would Jack and Lureen adopt Ennis's kids under any circumstances?  It's sad that Ennis can't wrap his head around any scenario that would allow Jack and Ennis to raise their kids together (this I know would be way too progressive for Ennis to consider or even imagine as a possibility), but still... why is this idea of Jack and Lureen adopting the girls a solution he even imagines (even in his sarcastic state of mind).  I truly don't know how to interpret it.

The other sad thing I think, is that even in his sarcasm he realizes that living together with Jack herding sheep was the best time of his life (and that he probably really would like to do that in an ideal world).

 

[Jeff Wrangler]

Too true.  I think Ennis suffered from low self-esteem from childhood on (his habit of keeping to himself was a product of it).  His marriage helped heal that, gave him an accepted place in society and a wife and children who looked up to him.  When he made the decision to continue his homosexual relationship with Jack, he put that in danger. 

To preserve his tenuous hold on self-esteem, he had to look down on Jack as one of "those boys" and think of his passion for Jack only as "this thing."  If he were to set up housekeeping with Jack, then of course his family and friends would know he was one of "those boys," too.   Being the object of their contempt (and by association, his father's) was an insurmountable horror to him, a betrayal of his deepest wish to be accepted and respected in his life. 

The fact that he continued to take the risk of meeting Jack over the years was a testimony to how much Jack meant to him.  But I do think he blinded himself for a long time to the fact that what he felt for Jack was more than physical passion and friendship.  He was forced to acknowledge this by two things:  Alma's "outing" him at Thanksgiving, and when Jack finally hinted that he was ready to "quit" Ennis.  After this, he had to admit to himself that he was never going to fit in like he wanted to.  He belonged on Jack's side of the fence, and there was no more denying it.

Very well and succinctly put, Meryl. Thank you!

[Meryl]

Thank you, Jeff, I appreciate your commenting on it! 

[serious crayons]

"Sure, and you could try to convince Alma to let you and Lureen adopt the girls. And money would rain down from L.D. Newsome and we could just live together herding sheep and whiskey would flow in the stream..."

When you think about it... this is a really wierd thing for Ennis to even think of... why would Jack and Lureen adopt Ennis's kids under any circumstances?  It's sad that Ennis can't wrap his head around any scenario that would allow Jack and Ennis to raise their kids together (this I know would be way too progressive for Ennis to consider or even imagine as a possibility), but still... why is this idea of Jack and Lureen adopting the girls a solution he even imagines (even in his sarcastic state of mind).  I truly don't know how to interpret it.

The other sad thing I think, is that even in his sarcasm he realizes that living together with Jack herding sheep was the best time of his life (and that he probably really would like to do that in an ideal world).

 

Hi everybody!

Amanda, I definitely agree that the line suggests that Ennis thinks of that time as his ideal world -- so ideal as to be, at that point, an unrealistic fantasy. That's so touchingly underlined later when Lureen, quoting Jack, echoes the whiskey phrase (a moment made all the more hearbreaking  when Ennis is slightly smiles, amid his grief, at the memory and knowledge that Jack had felt the same way and repeated the phrase).

As for the adopting the girls thing, my impression was that he was being sarcastic -- he meant that, among all the other pie-in-the-sky aspects of the suggestions, he couldn't see leaving the girls behind, which made moving to Texas even more of an impossibility.

[Mikaela]

he couldn't see leaving the girls behind, which made moving to Texas even more of an impossibility.

and

I wonder if Ennis was curious about Jack's family.

and

the scene where he lets Bobby drive the tractor for a second certainly shows us that he was fun around kids too.

One thing I'm so very, very grateful for, is the way the film depicts the two men as fathers. It omits a couple of unflattering scenes from the short story (Jack saying he didn't want any kids, Ennis giving up on seeing his daughters after the Thanksgiving fiasco) and instead inserts scenes that show the two of them caring for and loving their kids (such as Jack and Bobby's tractor ride, Jack being the one of Bobby's parents who has been nagging the school).

The depiction of both of them as fathers is a direct contrast to how we learn that their own fathers treated *them*. That is all the more remarkable because abused or mistreated children very often end up being violent or abusive towards their own children in their turn. I'm so very happy for this characterization choice - I expect much of it is directly attributable to Ang Lee.

In the film, with the way Ennis focuses on his girls, and the way he several times asks Jack about Lureen, it's strange that after the Reunion they never are seen specifically discussing Bobby, or Jack's relationship with his son. Neither do either of them or the film address how Jack, who appears to love his son, still seems so ready to just leave everything behind, including Bobby..... Perhaps Jack too feels, like his father-in-law does, for the longest time that his son is mostly a Newsome? I get the feeling that it's Jack holding off talking about Bobby - that Ennis would not have minded doing so.

Jack and Ennis never get far enough into considering a life together to talk about what their staying together would mean for their children, in terms of possible ostracism, for instance. (That's actually and sadly still a hot topic *today* in political discussions in the country where I live, in debating whether married gay couples should have full adoption rights, which they do not have today.) Ennis's quip about Jack and Lureen adopting the girls, - which I agree means he can't put his head around leaving his girls behind, figuratively and literally speaking; - may possibly be the closest the film comes to addressing the issue of impact on their children. That, plus the fact that IMO one of the several reasons why Alma keeps silent, even under and after the divorce, is the thought of how it would affect their daughters, should the true nature of Ennis's fishing trips ever become known in the family or - even worse - public knowledge.

I should try and twist this someehow back on topic, I suppose. Jack's and Bobby's tractor ride. I adore that little scene. I can just imagine how wonderful the little boy thinks it is, being trusted to drive that huge tractor. And it gives more depth to something Jack says earlier, because it's such a complete and intentional and beautiful contrast to it: "Never taught me a thing. Never once come to see me ride".

[serious crayons]

Mikaela, I have been thinking of starting a thread about relationships between parents and children in the movie and story. I'm inspired in part by your comment earlier that you'd thought a lot about this topic, and by insightful comments you and others have made. I will go ahead and do it; hope you will contribute more of your thoughts!