Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way

[Front-Ranger]

Well, I'm taking it in the somewhat literal way, meaning, calf roping you stay in the saddle, don't get thrown on the ground, therefore no need for a clown to distract the bull from stomping on you. But the other way to take it is "go after calves and fillies, not bulls," meaning go straight. Of course there's also the interpretation that Jack might have more success with younger people of either orientation.

[Kajunite]

Interesting food for thought!

[Brown Eyes]

Wow Mikaela !  I LOVE all the meanings you found for Twist.  Really, really interesting... and some of those definitions become downright poetic when we apply them to Jack and the relationship.

I also like the alternative interpretations of Mar.  There's certainly a lot of creative naming (unusual naming) in this story in general.  What do we think about Ennis and Alma's decision to name their first daughter Alma Junior?  I know it's not entirely uncommon/ unheard-of to name a girl Junior after her Mother, but I wonder if this is thrown into the story to add a little (more) complexity/ fluidity to the idea of gender.  I assume we're to understand that Jack is really John Junior.  I also wonder if there's meaning behind "Newsome"? 

Okay I'm a slow reader!    I hope to get some of these sharp wits to comment on this line.  Bartender,  "Ever try calf ropin'?"  Puleezzee!

Heya Kajunite! Welcome to BetterMost... Want a cup of coffee don't you?  And a piece of cherry cake?  I agree with the two ideas suggested by Front-Ranger.  And, I think (as Jack sort of indicates by his response... and his irritation at the bartender) that this might not only be a sexually charged thing to say... but also an insult about class/ money.  Long ago, way back on the old board, there was a really complicated discussion about what this reference meant in terms of the economics/ hierarchy of rodeo culture.  It was really interesting, but lost on me a bit since I don't know anything about rodeo-ing other than what Jack taught me...  And that it sure ain't what it was back in John Twist Sr.'s day...

 

[Kajunite]

Thanks for the welcome.  We love Coffee in Louisiana; stronger the better. 

I kept thinking the bartender's remark was in some way tied to the rejection of the clown, Jimbo.  There is no need to be rescued in calf roping.  But you are in the ring with a mad bull with horns the size of Texas, and you need to be saved by the big boys or clowns.  Rodeo clowns are also used for comedy routines when things slow down like between bulls or events.  So they are not just for rescue purposes.  My neighbor has one of the largest rodeo companies in this state and travels all over with his rodeo.  In all fairness I have never been to a gay rodeo but I have been to several others. 

Affording a certain horse would have been a problem then especially since Jack was not a big time winner.  So his response was understandable in social and financial terms.

[Brown Eyes]

Hi again,

Thanks for that insight.  So, in rodeo culture, I'd assume that bull-riding would be considered more prestigious than calf roping?  I'd think the drama/ risk of bull-riding would make it one of the star events.  Is the bartender essentially "talking down" to Jack or suggesting he think about demoting himself to calf-roping?  Yes, I'm sure the main point of the bartender's comment has to do with the rejection he just saw between Jimbo and Jack.  But, it's be fun to try to tease out some other more subtle/ multiple meanings that might be hiding there.
 

[Kajunite]

Yes in my opinion the bull riding is more prestigeous because of the difficulty.  Some of those bulls have horrendous reputations and the riders try to get good enough to ride the most notorious bull.  I think the prizes are also greater.  Calf roping is mostly speed and you have to have a good horse.  You rope the calf and then get off your horse to run to the calf to tie his feet in a certain time frame.  The horse must know to stand still after you have dismounted as he is holding the rope tight to keep the calf from getting up and running.  Not all horses can do this.  I can see by this that Jack was outdone because he could not afford that kind of talented horse.  The calf roping event is just you and the horse and the poor calf.  Bull riding takes several as you can see from the movie.  Two guys (at least) help you to mount the big bully and then usually two clowns have to distract the bull while the rider gets to safety. 

[Brown Eyes]

Well, two different moments in the movie have been on my mind a bit... and the topic fits in this thread well enough.  It's about a handful of lines that seem simple but seem to reveal quite a lot, although "double meanings" might not play into this so much.  So, I'll post it here in any case.

Someone somewhere once noted that when Jack is talking to Lureen about Bobby's teacher he says "I complain too much."  And the person who originally pointed this out said that this seems to be a quick moment where Jack is verbalizing one of his key character traits.  He does complain and bitch quite a lot, as we all know.

So, it recently occured to me that a similar thing might happen with Ennis.  A moment where he verbalizes something that is a major part of his character.  During the painful post-divorce conversation with Jack,  Ennis says "I don't know what to say...", which seems to be one of his defining characteristics (his silence, his difficulty expressing himself verbally, etc.).  And then, when he tells Jack sorry, he says "you know I am" and then seems to try to give Jack a meaningful look in the eye.  I think this might be some evidence of how much Ennis (throughout their relationship) relies on Jack to be able to read his very subtle signals, to understand him without Ennis having to verbalize things.  He expects Jack to know him so well that he'll understand what Ennis means intuitively.  Sometimes it seems like they can both sort of read each other's signals, thoughts and emotions.  But, it seems like there are just as many times with their signals get crossed or confused.  It's interesting how many questions and remarks that Jack puts to Ennis - and vice versa- how many statements Ennis makes to Jack - where they don't directly answer one another... or seemingly switch subjects... or just don't answer (verbally at least).

It's funny now that I think about it.  It seems like the "I don't know what to say..." line is the flip side of what Ennis tells Alma as he's rushing out of the apartment with Jack during the reunion scene.  He tells Alma that they might be gone all night because they might "get to drinkin and talkin"... Here's a moment where Ennis is hoping that Alma might believe that he's a talkative enough fellow to actually be able to stay out all night shooting the breeze.  I've always found that funny and cute.

[Front-Ranger]

I think you're on to something there, Amanda, I will have to think of some of those lines that seem to be throwaway lines at first but then seem to be eponymous once you think about them a different way. Like the line that Jack said in the story, when he looked into the deep blue of the sky, that he might "drown looking up." And we know that he did. Also, the line that Ennis said, "I'm so clumsy, I might get myself electrocuted." Well, we know that he did get himself electrocuted in a way, thinking of all the references to love as an electrical shock that passed between Ennis and Jack.

[dly64]

Someone somewhere once noted that when Jack is talking to Lureen about Bobby's teacher he says "I complain too much."  And the person who originally pointed this out said that this seems to be a quick moment where Jack is verbalizing one of his key character traits.  He does complain and bitch quite a lot, as we all know.

I wanted to make an extra note about this … just something to consider. Yes, Jack does complain a lot. That is certainly a character trait … especially with Ennis. Isn’t it interesting, however, that Jack is very passive when it comes to both Lureen and Lureen’s father. The only time Jack stands up to the old “stud duck” is when he can’t take it any more and blows. Is it because he does not want to expend any energy towards those who he cares very little about? Even though Jack didn’t want a child, he does love Bobby and, therefore, fights to make life better for him (Bobby). I am not saying that Jack has no feelings for Lureen. What I am saying is that he does not care enough to waste his time arguing. His truth is only exposed to those who he really loves.

So, it recently occured to me that a similar thing might happen with Ennis.  A moment where he verbalizes something that is a major part of his character.  During the painful post-divorce conversation with Jack,  Ennis says "I don't know what to say...", which seems to be one of his defining characteristics (his silence, his difficulty expressing himself verbally, etc.).  And then, when he tells Jack sorry, he says "you know I am" and then seems to try to give Jack a meaningful look in the eye.  I think this might be some evidence of how much Ennis (throughout their relationship) relies on Jack to be able to read his very subtle signals, to understand him without Ennis having to verbalize things.  He expects Jack to know him so well that he'll understand what Ennis means intuitively.  Sometimes it seems like they can both sort of read each other's signals, thoughts and emotions.  But, it seems like there are just as many times with their signals get crossed or confused.  It's interesting how many questions and remarks that Jack puts to Ennis - and vice versa- how many statements Ennis makes to Jack - where they don't directly answer one another... or seemingly switch subjects... or just don't answer (verbally at least).

I like what you have to say here. I have never thought of it before, but I think it makes a lot of sense. It is true that they understand each other better than anyone else. But it is that strength that is also their weakness. They say a lot to each other non-verbally and expect the other to understand. When they have their row, everything is spilled out. Even though they are saying it …. what they are saying is nothing new. They both know the truth. But to actually hear it is devastating, especially for Ennis.

[stevenedel]

(jeezzz... just put on the BBM soundtrack, and now I can't think straight. But a try nevertheless:)

I haven't read all 14 pages of this interesting thread, so maybe this came up already (if so, just ignore me), but I have been wondering about Lureen's and Lashawn's dialogue about their sororities. This whole fraternity and sorority business is unknown over here (we do have them, but they are traditional, local affairs, while in the US they appear to be part of a much more organized national system). I recall reading somewhere that Kappa Phi, the sorority Lureen was in, is more classy than Lashawns Tri Delt. Is that true? If so, it turns that scene into kind of a catfight: Lashawn insults Lureen by calling Lureen's home town a ' pokey little place', and Lureen gets back at her by pointing out her own academic superiority.