Author Topic: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way  (Read 121653 times)

Offline dly64

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Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #220 on: July 26, 2006, 05:13:47 pm »
The most unintentionally ironic line LaShawn delivers, and hence another line with double meaning, is the complaint that the two husbands "Don't have a smidging of rhythm between them". In all likelihood, soon there's going to be quite a lot of rhythm between those two guys....     And Jack actually seems to possibly make that connection, too  - at least IMO he does a little double-take at Lashawn's comment.

I never thought of that, either, but it makes sense. OMG! I am going to have to watch that scene more closely.
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Offline stevenedel

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Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #221 on: July 27, 2006, 04:06:15 am »
I've seen others say that as well - but I honestly don't see why Jack would want to spite Lureen? I just don't see him as that kind of person, never actively spiteful.....even in those later disapponted years. He knows, none better, what the marriage has become and why. IMO he'd echo Ennis if he had to: Shut up about Lureen. This ain't her fault.

In my view, Jack asks Lashawn to dance in order to get out of an increasingly embarrassing and awkward situation, in order to have time to collect his thoughts a bit and regroup. Randall visibly checking him out, LaShawn contributing her cluelessly and increasingly ironic remarks, Lureen watching and adding her little barbed comments on the side;  getting onto the dance floor with a woman who will  manage to entertain herself completely seems like a good retreat option for Jack just there and then.

That's interesting, Mikaela. Much as I like Jack, I have the feeling he's very well capable of being Jack Nasty. His remark, to Ennis, about Lureen 'punching numbers' is hardly a very nice one. During the dance scene, in my opinion they are having a covert fight, and I always wonder if it is about Jack's homosexuality. Lureen puts a direct challenge to him: "Why do you think that is, Jack?".

And then he dances with Lashawn as a proxy for Randall. I doubt he'd have much opportunity to order his thoughts, with Lashawn chattering away the way she does.
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Offline dly64

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Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #222 on: July 27, 2006, 08:51:47 am »
That's interesting, Mikaela. Much as I like Jack, I have the feeling he's very well capable of being Jack Nasty. His remark, to Ennis, about Lureen 'punching numbers' is hardly a very nice one. During the dance scene, in my opinion they are having a covert fight, and I always wonder if it is about Jack's homosexuality. Lureen puts a direct challenge to him: "Why do you think that is, Jack?".

And then he dances with Lashawn as a proxy for Randall. I doubt he'd have much opportunity to order his thoughts, with Lashawn chattering away the way she does.

It's funny you should say that. Earlier, Ennis asks if, between Jack and Lureen, "it's normal and all?" Jack shakes his head yes. I'd like to hear Lureen's POV. As she continues to "punch" those numbers in her adding machine, her hair gets blonder and blonder, her make-up thicker and thicker, and she becomes more and more bitter. Her personality has been described as “cold as ice”. I believe she would describe her sex life the same way. The only time we see them passionate is in the car. It is obvious by the time her hair starts to stiffen up, so has their relationship.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #223 on: July 27, 2006, 09:26:26 am »
During the dance scene, in my opinion they are having a covert fight, and I always wonder if it is about Jack's homosexuality. Lureen puts a direct challenge to him: "Why do you think that is, Jack?".

If not an out-and-out spat, at the very least Lureen is taunting him. And I think it's absolutely about Jack's homosexuality -- or at least their unsatisfactory sex life -- though I'm not sure whether Lureen is conscious of that or not.

It's funny you should say that. Earlier, Ennis asks if, between Jack and Lureen, "it's normal and all?" Jack shakes his head yes. ... As she continues to "punch" those numbers in her adding machine, her hair gets blonder and blonder, her make-up thicker and thicker, and she becomes more and more bitter.

Yeah, I think Lureen's increasingly blond hair and brittle demeanor signals her growing dissatisfaction. I wish that, when Ennis asked if things were normal, Jack had just admitted outright that they aren't. I suppose he was trying not to trigger Ennis' startle point, but in this case it seems like Ennis would have felt reassured if Jack had been truthful.


Offline dly64

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Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #224 on: July 27, 2006, 10:16:52 am »
Yeah, I think Lureen's increasingly blond hair and brittle demeanor signals her growing dissatisfaction. I wish that, when Ennis asked if things were normal, Jack had just admitted outright that they aren't. I suppose he was trying not to trigger Ennis' startle point, but in this case it seems like Ennis would have felt reassured if Jack had been truthful.

Or could have Jack actually believed his sex life with Lureen was normal? I would hope not .... but you never know!  :-\
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Offline nakymaton

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Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #225 on: July 27, 2006, 11:58:02 am »
Or could have Jack actually believed his sex life with Lureen was normal? I would hope not .... but you never know!  :-\

That's one of the reasons why I think Jack compartmentalizes his life, actually. Like Jack's somehow able to put his whole life with Lureen into a little box that's separate from his love for Ennis, and manage as if it's normal. (That comment from Jack also suggests to me that Jack loses his control fairly gradually after Ennis's divorce... that Jack gradually has a harder and harder time faking his everyday life.)
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Offline dly64

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Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #226 on: July 27, 2006, 01:32:51 pm »
That's one of the reasons why I think Jack compartmentalizes his life, actually. Like Jack's somehow able to put his whole life with Lureen into a little box that's separate from his love for Ennis, and manage as if it's normal. (That comment from Jack also suggests to me that Jack loses his control fairly gradually after Ennis's divorce... that Jack gradually has a harder and harder time faking his everyday life.)

Hmmmm .... that's an interesting thought. I do think, at that moment, Jack knows he'll never have that "sweet life" with Ennis. Maybe he starts getting "sloppy" after that. Are his actions setting him up to be "dead"? Or did Jack die the day Ennis sent him away post divorce?  Honestly, I think it's some of both.
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Offline Mikaela

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Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #227 on: July 27, 2006, 03:21:49 pm »
Quote
From Katherine
I wish that, when Ennis asked if things were normal, Jack had just admitted outright that they aren't. I suppose he was trying not to trigger Ennis' startle point, but in this case it seems like Ennis would have felt reassured if Jack had been truthful.

Yes! To all of that.  Well put. Jack's statement that it's "normal and all" between him and Lureen adds to Ennis's paranoia over whatever he, Ennis, must have done wrong to make Alma suspect the truth - and by extension, everyone in town who he fears are looking at him funny. Jack manages to keep it "normal" (whatever they mean by that - I've actually seen it as a term for successfully keeping up the charade, and that both of them would accept the term as such, but you never know, indeed.....) while he, Ennis, must have slipped up - and fears to slip up more. Cue his even greater anxiety when Jack goes on to stoke the paranoia by suggesting he should move. Poor Ennis. I just want to ..... hug him something fierce at that panicked face of his when Jack says his "maybe you should move outta there".

But I think that Jack realizes in retrospect that his quite affectionate (IMO) talk about Lureen and about it being normal and all etc. was not a wise thing to tell Ennis. I think he realizes it contributed a bit to Ennis's reaction and their "you're a real thinker" quarrel. I think so because at the next meeting we get to see, their last meeting, when Ennis asks "what about you and Lureen?" , Jack shoots him a *look*. A quick, scrutinizing, careful, "Oh no we're not going *there* again!" look. (Could also be he's checking whether Ennis suspects or wants to get into the truth - not about the marriage but about the affairs.....) Whereupon he goes on to ensure Ennis that the marriage now could have been conducted over the phone.

I suppose at that stage Jack is telling the truth as far as the marriage goes, but earlier on in the marriage he had a lot of affection for Lureen IMO. Which leads me to the next quote:

Quote
From Stevenedel
His remark, to Ennis, about Lureen 'punching numbers' is hardly a very nice one.

From the very first time I saw that I honestly thought Jack was being affectionate there - that he actually thinks Lureen is putting up a good show in not giving up her fight for their financial well-being. Jack likes having money, and he respects Lureens abilities as a businesswoman. Then of course he realizes who he's talking to, or rather iw overwhelmed by the fact that however much he has affection for Lureen, and however much it's nice to have money, nothing of that compares to what he'd have enjoyed with Ennis if Ennis would only let him. Hence the disconcerted "for what it's worth" at the end.

I was actually surprised when I realized I was pretty alone in that interpretation and that most people thinks he's outright mocking Lureens single-minded focus on the number-crunching.


Quote
From Stevenedel
During the dance scene, in my opinion they are having a covert fight, and I always wonder if it is about Jack's homosexuality. Lureen puts a direct challenge to him: "Why do you think that is, Jack?".

Yes, a covert fight, sure enough..... I don't think Lureen is (yet) aware of the homosexuality - I think that comes later, probably just before or just as she learns of Jack's death. I've got nothing really to point to as evidence for that - only that I feel certain Lureen would have divorced Jack if she'd known - and I feel equally certain that she *knows* by the time Ennis calls her.  She knows by then about Jack being gay, but who he *loved* doesn't fall into place until the conversation with Ennis.

I like Lureen very much, I'll not try to hide that. I think she's a "lively little girl" too and it's sad to see her become embittered and brittle and cold over the lack of love and closeness; - which she doesn't understand for so long. I believe hers is the last of "the four strong hearts breaking" that Time Magazine wrote about in their BBM article.  :(

I also think Alma was better off than Lureen. Alma did at least know what the deal was with Ennis, and could decide her course based on the truth, however painful. While Lureen is kept in the dark. She's married to the nicest, most handsome guy around (not that I'm biased or anything....   ;) ), they've got a good relationship and work well together in the business (IMO) - and yet there's something crucial missing. The most crucial thing of all, to Lureen. And it's getting more and more evident, post Ennis's divorce when Jack increasingly can't be bothered to even try to pretend anymore. Last time he really makes an effort is on Thanksgiving following the post-divorce scene.

I think Lureen loves her husband till the end. If she didn't, she'd have divorced him. She's goodlooking, she's got money, she's got brains, she's not the kind of woman who'd keep a loveless marriage going for the sake of their son, her folks would be thrilled if she showed Jack the door, - she could have found a new husband easily. And if Alma could divorce Ennis, society's disapproval would hardly have deterred Lureen. Yet she and Jack stay married till the end. I see only one reason for that, - Lureen loves her husband. Another part of the nuanced tragedy that BBM presents to us. Lureen drowns herself in work and number-crunching and visits to the hairdresser, and while the bitterness grows she still hopes he'll one day love her back, hopes for a change, - that doesn't come.


Quote
And then he dances with Lashawn as a proxy for Randall. I doubt he'd have much opportunity to order his thoughts, with Lashawn chattering away the way she does.

Lashawn's chattering is perfect if he wants to regroup and think things trough! It's the kind of one-way chattering where he doesn't have to listen and she'll keep herself entertained and be satisfied as long as he throws in a "mmm-hmmm" or a "Is that so?" or possibly an "I agree" every now and then.  ;D
« Last Edit: July 27, 2006, 03:40:03 pm by Mikaela »

Offline nakymaton

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Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #228 on: July 27, 2006, 03:44:03 pm »
I think Lureen loves her husband till the end.

I think so too. I think that, even on the phone with Ennis when she realizes who Ennis is, that she still loves Jack. There are tears in her eyes in that scene, and I think they come from mourning Jack as well as from discovering who Jack really loved.

Lureen didn't have to suggest that Ennis go up to Lightning Flat. The phone call had reached its natural end already, but she gave Ennis that push. That was an uncommonly kind thing to do, I think.

I don't think the movie plays that scene with the "cold little voice" described in the story.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #229 on: July 27, 2006, 03:46:06 pm »
Me neither. I feel very sympathetic toward Lureen, too. (Less so toward Alma.) But I wonder if her "little voice as cold as snow" could be another reference to a (*cringe*) symbol: the snow/talk of snow that always comes when the relationship between Jack and Ennis comes to some kind of ending.