Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way

[Mikaela]

Lureen didn't have to suggest that Ennis go up to Lightning Flat. The phone call had reached its natural end already, but she gave Ennis that push. That was an uncommonly kind thing to do, I think.

I don't think the movie plays that scene with the "cold little voice" described in the story.

A big "ditto" to all of that!!

No, film!Lureen is not cold as snow - she's not frozen, - there would be no tears if she were. And on the basis of her love for Jack she shows a decency and compassion to Ennis that I don't  think a lot of people could have managed to show in similar circumstances. (The wife of late French president Francois Mitterand comes to mind, - inviting her husband's mistress and illegitimate daughter to his funeral....)

[serious crayons]

No, film!Lureen is not cold as snow - she's not frozen, - there would be no tears if she were. And on the basis of her love for Jack she shows a decency and compassion to Ennis that I don't  think a lot of people could have managed to show in similar circumstances.

Absolutely. I think Film Lureen is another big departure from Story Lureen. She's a little brittle on the phone, but who wouldn't be. Cold? No way. She's incredibly compassionate.

[dly64]

Absolutely. I think Film Lureen is another big departure from Story Lureen. She's a little brittle on the phone, but who wouldn't be. Cold? No way. She's incredibly compassionate.

I like Lureen a lot and admire her more than Alma. The reason: she makes her own way in life and doesn't need anyone. I find her to be a sympathetic character ... as I do all of the women. I do believe that she loves Jack and is devastated when she realizes that her husband loved a man. (In those days, especially, women often blamed themselves. I would guess Lureen felt the same way, but I have no proof of that).  Interestingly, I don't find story Lureen and film Lureen to be that much different. The reason is ... we see Lureen's face and know that her heart is breaking. However, she pulls it together before she speaks. To Ennis, her voice probably comes off as being cold. The film also adds one line, ".... about the ashes, I mean."  I think that is Lureen's way of saying to Ennis ... "I got your number". I don’t know. What do the rest of you think that line represents?

[coffeecat33]

. . . I wonder if her "little voice as cold as snow" could be another reference to a (*cringe*) symbol: the snow/talk of snow that always comes when the relationship between Jack and Ennis comes to some kind of ending.

Could be. I haven't analysed the story as much as the movie. The movie breaks my heart but the story breaks my heart and fills me with grief. Ennis dreaming about Jack is what does it. ("sometimes the pillow was wet, sometimes the sheet...")

I have a slightly different interpretation of Lureen's phone conversation with Ennis. I don't think Lureen and Jack loved each other. I think they got together because they were both high from winning at the rodeo and wanted to celebrate. Jack's decision to be with Lureen IMO was motivated by her money and his loneliness at not being with Ennis. Plus the pregancy brought them together.

I think Lureen's tears were caused from a look back at her life with Jack. Their marriage was so passionless and routine they could "do it over the phone." Lureen was more interested in money than love. She could have had a better more loving life with Jack but didn't. When she talks to Ennis she realizes the love she wanted from Jack was given to Ennis instead of her. Movie Lureen says, "Get in touch with his folks. I suppose they'd appreciate it if his wishes was carried out. About the ashes, I mean."  The paragraph from the story is, "[Jack's parents] will be [in Lightnin Flat] until they die. I never met them. They didn't come down for the funeral. You get in touch with them. I suppose they'd appreciate it if his wishes was carried out."

Ironic considering how very little John Twist "appreciates" the visit from Ennis and his offer to take the ashes to Brokeback. But I'm still not sure why Lureen says, About the ashes I mean. She's clarifying she's talking about the ashes, but what else could she be referring to?

[dly64]

Could be. I haven't analysed the story as much as the movie. The movie breaks my heart but the story breaks my heart and fills me with grief. Ennis dreaming about Jack is what does it. ("sometimes the pillow was wet, sometimes the sheet...")

That line is a killer!! It makes me sad every time I read it.

I have a slightly different interpretation of Lureen's phone conversation with Ennis. I don't think Lureen and Jack loved each other. I think they got together because they were both high from winning at the rodeo and wanted to celebrate. Jack's decision to be with Lureen IMO was motivated by her money and his loneliness at not being with Ennis. Plus the pregancy brought them together.

I don’t think I can agree with you 100%. I see your POV. However, IMO, Lureen thought she really loved Jack and she thought Jack loved her. Jack’s decision to be with Lureen was motivated by fear, societal mores and yes, IMO, her money and standing. As for her pregnancy … we can only surmise she was pregnant prior to their marriage. I, for one, believe that is what happened. However, there could be a strong argument for Lureen’s pregnancy to have occurred shortly after they were married (as what happened with Ennis and Alma).

I think Lureen's tears were caused from a look back at her life with Jack. Their marriage was so passionless and routine they could "do it over the phone." Lureen was more interested in money than love. She could have had a better more loving life with Jack but didn't. When she talks to Ennis she realizes the love she wanted from Jack was given to Ennis instead of her. Movie Lureen says, "Get in touch with his folks. I suppose they'd appreciate it if his wishes was carried out. About the ashes, I mean."  The paragraph from the story is, "[Jack's parents] will be [in Lightnin Flat] until they die. I never met them. They didn't come down for the funeral. You get in touch with them. I suppose they'd appreciate it if his wishes was carried out."

I don’t think Lureen initially was more interested in money than in love. Very quickly, however, she realized that their marriage was one of convenience and not love. The more their life went on status quo, the more she threw herself into the business. She became more and more bitter as time went on. I think she suspected something wasn’t right for years. Whether or not she knew he was gay (before the phone call) is debatable.  I do think, however, she was devastated to realize that her husband’s lover was on the end of the phone (I am skipping a couple of lines, but you get the point

Lureen: He used to say he wanted his ashes to be scattered on Brokeback Mountain, but I wasn’t sure where that was ……
Ennis: No, ma’am, we herded sheep up on Brokeback one summer … back in ‘63”
Lureen: Well, he said it was his favorite place. I thought he meant to get drunk ….

This exchange, IMO, means two things. First, that Jack loved this man way before she met Jack. Secondly, Jack’s favorite place, where she thought he liked to go to get drunk, was really the place where he met this man … the man on the end of the line.

But I'm still not sure why Lureen says, About the ashes I mean. She's clarifying she's talking about the ashes, but what else could she be referring to?

That line stumps me, too. (Unless she means that Jack’s wishes were really to be with this man on the end of the line … ?? I haven’t a clue).

[Mikaela]

That line stumps me, too. (Unless she means that Jack’s wishes were really to be with this man on the end of the line … ?

I think you're on to something in what you say last. I think Lureen feels that just saying  "They'd appreciate it if his wishes were carried out" might be interpreted as her yielding too much place, extending more open-ended acceptance than she intends to.

After all, it probably was Jack's wish to be with Ennis, at their favourite place - and if so he may have had other wide-ranging wishes relating to the relationship with this man. Lureen can't know what wishes those were, what Jack may have told his parents or Ennis.

By qualifying her statement to be sure Ennis knows it's specifically about the ashes, she's at the same time saying she's not willing to give up *her* considerable claim on Jack, her part in his life story - not willing to reduce the importance of their marriage. Whatever else Jack got up to in life - she loved him and she held on to him even when things got difficult. She's not about to accept someone usurping her place at this point in time even if that conceivably might have been Jack's wish.

[dly64]

I think you're on to something in what you say last. I think Lureen feels that just saying  "They'd appreciate it if his wishes were carried out" might be interpreted as her yielding too much place, extending more open-ended acceptance than she intends to.

After all, it probably was Jack's wish to be with Ennis, at their favourite place - and if so he may have had other wide-ranging wishes relating to the relationship with this man. Lureen can't know what wishes those were, what Jack may have told his parents or Ennis.

By qualifying her statement to be sure Ennis knows it's specifically about the ashes, she's at the same time saying she's not willing to give up *her* considerable claim on Jack, her part in his life story - not willing to reduce the importance of their marriage. Whatever else Jack got up to in life - she loved him and she held on to him even when things got difficult. She's not about to accept someone usurping her place at this point in time even if that conceivably might have been Jack's wish.

Excellently stated! You have put in an additional twist (no pun intended) that I previously had not considered …. Lureen’s role and importance in Jack’s life (and vice versa).

[stevenedel]

Yes, a covert fight, sure enough..... I don't think Lureen is (yet) aware of the homosexuality - I think that comes later, probably just before or just as she learns of Jack's death. I've got nothing really to point to as evidence for that - only that I feel certain Lureen would have divorced Jack if she'd known - and I feel equally certain that she *knows* by the time Ennis calls her.  She knows by then about Jack being gay, but who he *loved* doesn't fall into place until the conversation with Ennis.

(...)

I think Lureen loves her husband till the end. If she didn't, she'd have divorced him. She's goodlooking, she's got money, she's got brains, she's not the kind of woman who'd keep a loveless marriage going for the sake of their son, her folks would be thrilled if she showed Jack the door, - she could have found a new husband easily. And if Alma could divorce Ennis, society's disapproval would hardly have deterred Lureen. Yet she and Jack stay married till the end. I see only one reason for that, - Lureen loves her husband. Another part of the nuanced tragedy that BBM presents to us. Lureen drowns herself in work and number-crunching and visits to the hairdresser, and while the bitterness grows she still hopes he'll one day love her back, hopes for a change, - that doesn't come.

I agree with you, Mikaela, that had Lureen known Jack was gay, she would have divorced him on the spot. I strongly doubt that she ever draws that conclusion, even after he dies. It is, from her perspective, simply something that doesn't come to mind. If, during the phone conversation, she is indeed sad about Jack, and not simply sorry for herself, I think it is because she comes to realize how little she knew the man she was married to.

But I don't see their marriage as a very loving one; more like a marriage of convenience between two people who like each other well enough. I think she gives up on Jack fairly early on; just think of the tractor demo scene, and her disappointed look when the two farmers make disparaging remarks about her husband. The screenplay at this point actually describes Jack as "boyishly inane". From what she tells Ennis, we can deduce that she saw Jack as a boozer who lived in a fantasy world. In their marriage, the traditional male/female roles are completely reversed, and the one time they aren't, i.e., when Jack confronts LD during the Thanksgiving dinner, is the one time during their marriage when we see her being visibly pleased with him.

[dly64]

But I don't see their marriage as a very loving one; more like a marriage of convenience between two people who like each other well enough. I think she gives up on Jack fairly early on; just think of the tractor demo scene, and her disappointed look when the two farmers make disparaging remarks about her husband. The screenplay at this point actually describes Jack as "boyishly inane". From what she tells Ennis, we can deduce that she saw Jack as a boozer who lived in a fantasy world. In their marriage, the traditional male/female roles are completely reversed, and the one time they aren't, i.e., when Jack confronts LD during the Thanksgiving dinner, is the one time during their marriage when we see her being visibly pleased with him.

You must have been reading my mind! Darn if I didn't say the exact same thing in a different thread a few moments ago!

[stevenedel]

You must have been reading my mind! Darn if I didn't say the exact same thing in a different thread a few moments ago!

I've been practising my ESP, and its paying off... 

Where do I find your comment, I'm curious... ?