Is freedom really all that "free"??

[Shuggy]

It's posts like yours that do a lot to break down the prejudice against all things American that is likely to infect us out here in the rest of the world. Sometimes you get the impression that Bush represents America, and then you hear from real Americans that he doesn't.
That patriotism thing... and it's infectious: see how many World Cup teams put their hands on their hearts for their National Anthems now. Even NZ, dammit.

[maggiesmommy GayLee]

thanks for your insight, shuggy..it helps to remember we're not all there is....and far from it..it helps to see the path ahead when we can learn how other countries handle similar situations...i love my country, if not most of the people that run it...and i have admired many of our presidents, of both parties, but  the issue before us, equality for all people, is long overdue for change. i want my country to stand proud in the world, not for military might or how much money we can pour into wars and disasters across the world, but for being an example of mand HUMANITY to man...
its a good dream, and one i hope to see come to pass in my lifetime....
thanks for your support..
gay lee

[delalluvia]

Freedom is never and has never been 'free'.

It has to be bought with blood and vigilantly watched and tended and cared for like the precious concept that it is.  It is a human concept and as such is interpreted freely by as many people as there are people.

Speaking from a relativistic POV, you get the govt/laws/rules you earned.  You want them changed?  Make them change.

Few things get changed because of 'fairness'.  The concepts of fairness and justice and equality for all have to be pushed and reinforced and brainwashed into our society and our kids because they are rarely concepts that anyone strives for.  Most people are tribal and ethnocentric and so the differences between people are scary and threatening so might makes right.

Freedom isn't free.  It has to be propped up, reinforced, protected and pushed pushed pushed.

[ednbarby]

With all due respect, Del, I don't think Gay Lee's point is whether freedom is free or not - it's whether we even really have it in this country.  I vote no.

[Jeff Wrangler]

Somebody needs to drop a house on the likes of Fred Phelps. And on Dubbya, too, while they're at it.

Ya know, I DO still love my country, which is why I'm so deeply hurt and depressed at the direction things have gone since the turn of the century. I was a little kid in the 1960s--11 years old when men first set foot on the moon. That means a couple of things. True, as a little kid, I wasn't really aware of what was going on in Vietnam, but I was aware of stuff like the Peace Corps, the War on Poverty, the Great Society, and the space program.

Hey, we're America! We're supposed to be the Good Guys! What happened? We've turned into the Evil Empire. 

And I never thought I would see the day when people would be so uncivil as to turn the funerals, where parents are burying their children, into occasions for political protest, so that we'd have to pass laws against it. 

If you folks will pardon a religious-type reference, I think a lot about a comment Thomas Jefferson once made: "I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just."

[maggiesmommy GayLee]

right, its not the "price" that I was discussing, but that in this nation that so proudly proclaims freedom for all, that is not the true way of things. sure it has to be bought, my father fought in WWII to buy it, our sons and duaghters are still fighting to buy this illusive thing....and dying....but this battle is not on the battle field...it is in the hearts and minds of our citizens and the people we HIRE to protect and  mandate our freedoms.  whe those elected officials are corrupt, when they are in power for the power and the money, when they can be bribed and sell out to the highest bidder, when they can be lobbioed by special interest groups and sell us doen the river for the almighty dollar and more personal power...we are forgotten, there are no lofty ideals and goals, it is all lip service to get elected again..its all about the money, the power and the vote...IF we really want to see freedom become available for all, we have to make funds available to the people that will speak for all of us, understand the needs to thier constituants and vote for whats right and not what will ge them more power and money.
Of, course, that is my point, not some pie in the sky notion that we shouldn't have to fight for the things we hold dear...we just need to go farther, and include all people....ALL PEOPLE....
gl  

[ednbarby]

Word, GL.

And I have to say that very few things piss me off more than when people say, "Well, if you don't like the current administration, change it."  And just how the hell are the rest of us supposed to do that?  I voted.  My husband voted.  I canvassed door-to-door trying to convince people to vote for John Kerry.  I affixed bumper stickers to my car trying to promote it.  I cold-called people for the DNC.  I donated lots of money to the cause.  I did everything I could.  And the bastards stole Ohio with their cheap anti-gay marriage trick.  There was nothing I could do to stop that.  So please don't condescend to me that somehow I have the administration I have because *I* didn't do more to make it different.  That's assinine and insulting.

(Sorry - in a venting kind of a mood today.)

[maggiesmommy GayLee]

oh, i hear you,edn, i know i am preaching to the choir...i know how hard we all work...and like i said, all of i t STILL leaves us powerless...because we don't have billions of $ and we aren't powerful people who could advance a political career. i want to be positive, i really do, but when we look at it politically, we are up against a mountain. maybe all we can expect to change are people...maybe thats the place to start....if the majority of people wanted changes, it would get done...
hope I didn't pis you off..i get kinda "pir in the sky" now and then

AND...Jeff....that was great....drop- a house on phelps, and we live in the land of OZ..and if you remember the good witch dropped a house on the BAD witch!!!
maybe we should TRY THAT!!

he is horrible and rude and an blight on our city....
gl

[ednbarby]

oh, i hear you,edn, i know i am preaching to the choir...i know how hard we all work...and like i said, all of i t STILL leaves us powerless...because we don't have billions of $ and we aren't powerful people who could advance a political career. i want to be positive, i really do, but when we look at it politically, we are up against a mountain. maybe all we can expect to change are people...maybe thats the place to start....if the majority of people wanted changes, it would get done...
hope I didn't pis you off..i get kinda "pir in the sky" now and then

Oh, no, no, no, no, no.  You didn't piss me off at all.  Del's post reminded me of a sentiment I hear often from the Right and it set me off.  My bad.

And I agree with you totally.  I try to be positive about all this (and sometimes fail ), but it gets more difficult all the time.

[delalluvia]

Sorry guys, but that's the way democracy works.  I'm sure my right-wing friends were in hell the 8 years Clinton was in office.  Personally, I was pretty happy politically then.

I, too, voted for Kerry, pushed him, advertised for him, and he came awfully close.

Can I complain that he lost?  Yes.  Was I pissed?  Yep.  Can I argue with the way the election went?  No.  That's how democracy works.  How freedom works.

More people than ever turned out for the vote, there was little to no voter fraud reported and Dubya still won by over a million votes, squeaking by to be sure.

If people are led around by their morality meters in a political race, there's not much that I can do other than keep pushing for secular teaching, schooling and equal rights so I can hope their children will be different.

That's a religious problem, not a political one.  Politicos will use whatever leverage they have to win a race and if some people are still trying to live by the rules of a wandering shepherd people's thunder god, politicos will use that as leveraging power and there's not much I can do about it in this country because those people are free to practice that belief and pass it on to their children along with its inherent prejudices.

Freedom was promised in this country by rich white men for other rich white men.  They originally didn't want poor white men part of the voting populace.  But that had to change to win a war.

Women, slaves weren't even part of that 'freedom'.

So I guess we can say we're hypocritical because it took over a century to give blacks and women the right to vote, and since that's the case, then we've been hypocritical from day one.  There were never any 'good old days' of freedom in this country.

Personally I believe we're hypocritical, but taking in everything and in comparison with other countries, I'd say we're still in the top 10 of freedom loving countries.

Are we perfect?  Nope, but we keep trying.  There are some states moving ahead, the gay constitution ban was voted down...progress is slow, but it's coming.