Author Topic: Mary Renault Book Discussion  (Read 79814 times)

Offline Kerry

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Re: Mary Renault Book Discussion
« Reply #200 on: January 16, 2007, 06:53:58 am »
since you bring up the party...I loved Alexias response when told he would serve the men...

"'Who I?' I was much affronted; I had never been asked to serve tables, except at public dinners where lads of good family do it by custom. 'Are the slaves sick or what?'"

how typical!! teenagers are teenagers everywhere and anytime!!

A mother’s insight LOL  :)

(I was really looking forward to illustrating my posts tonight with some lovely pics harvested from the Net. Alas, PhotoBucket is closed for maintenance!!!  :-\  Maybe tomorrow)
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Offline Kerry

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Re: Mary Renault Book Discussion
« Reply #201 on: January 16, 2007, 06:56:04 am »
and he already knew Kritias...who seemed to already have a bit of a reputation among the young men...

"I was old enough to have received some attentions from men, while still young enough to think them rather absurd; as, for that matter, the kind of person who chases young boys usually is. But I had never been inclined to laugh at Kritias"

At the party Kritias waits til Myron is looking away...

"Kritias moved his cup a little, so that the wine spilled down my clothes. On this he put his hand under the hem of my tunic in such a way that, to everyone but me, he would have seemed to be feeling the cloth"

how arrogant and slimy!! right there in front of everyone he is groping this teen...and putting him in such a position he can't say anything without causing a scene.

what does this tell us about Kritias? He comes from a life of privilege...he feels that he is above the rules that others have to follow...that he views other people as things to be used for his own ends...

but I am probably coloring my opinion by what is coming rather than what is in this chapter!!

Yes, I agree. Kritias is certainly a scum-bucket of the highest order!!! However, having said that, I also find him to be a somewhat contradictory character. He is certainly arrogant, and he’s a hypocrite, too. But he is also “gracious” and steeped in the social niceties, probably because he is so rich and has always been accustomed to the best. He had not belonged to the Sunhorses Club for long, and was “considered something of a prize” by the other members. I’m sure this knowledge wouldn’t’ve depleted his staggeringly enormous ego in any way! He wears the veil of the aesthete, whilst at the same time surreptitiously groping young men under their tunics. I couldn’t help but draw comparisons from the paedophilia scandal within the Catholic Church a couple of years ago (and I can make this comment because I am a Catholic – much as I’d love to be able to say I “believe in the Pentecost” like dear Jack’s Mama LOL). What made the act all the more despicable was because it was perpetrated by men in positions of trust. And I am appalled that this cretinous Kritias comes from the admirable Sokrates’ “camp” (for want of a better word! LOL):

“He was not much above thirty then, but already affected the philosopher in mantle and beard. He had a hungry-looking face, with the skin stretched tight on the cheekbones, but was not bad looking apart from his thinness.”

One slimey, sneaky bastard!
« Last Edit: January 16, 2007, 07:18:56 am by Kerry »
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Offline Kerry

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Re: Mary Renault Book Discussion
« Reply #202 on: January 16, 2007, 07:00:31 am »
ok...a bit of background first (for David the dropper of eaves)

at the first of the chapter Alexias arises early to go see the fleet about to embark on an invasion of Syracuse and to purchase flowers for a dinner party his father is giving that evening...he left in the dark and when he returns it is light and he finds the Herm out front of the house has been vandalized!! A troubling event...his father takes one look and says the house must be purified! About this time they hear a commotion; turns out several houses have had their Herms vandalized....

the city is in an uproar, this is a very bad omen to happen right on the eve of the launch of the new campaign....

Who has committed this outrage??! some say it is the Spartans, some that the Herms had been damaged here and there and no one noticed, some that this or that group had done it; and some accused Alkibiades (remember?? the young god who had once relieved himself in the garden of Alexias's house during a dinner party?)

Everyone is abuzz wondering who has brought this bad luck down on the city....

Just as we all know what tragically befell Sokrates, I also happen to know, from the sources, of Alkibiades’ fate. But I’m not reading ahead with TLOTW, so I’m going to find it interesting to see how MR describes these events.

Alkibiades is described as a dazzling character. A show pony. A peacock. As radiant as an incarnate God. We know that Alexias, for example, mistook him for the God Hermes! And he inspires either love or hate in those who know him (which appears to be most of Athens). There don’t appear to be any half measures with Alkibiades.

I personally saw the smashing of the Herms as slightly more than a “troubling event.” The ancient Greeks were deeply religious people, who loved and respected their Gods. This was an heretical act of sacrilege most foul. It could be likened to a church burning in our own time. Or the desecration of a church altar. What gave it an added troubled dimension was that they were on the verge of war with Syracuse. And it was considered that if the sacrilege had been perpetrated by someone from within the City, the Gods would judge them accordingly and side with the enemy in the war. There was a precedent. Read your Homer, lad!
« Last Edit: January 16, 2007, 07:21:41 am by Kerry »
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Offline Kerry

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Re: Mary Renault Book Discussion
« Reply #203 on: January 16, 2007, 07:13:03 am »
but Alexias must go off to school....everyone is ill at ease and gossiping...he is relieved when it is time to burn off some energy in the gymnasium....they go out and strip off (remember this is Greece and all exercise is taken nude)...everyone is talking and yelling so loudly no one can hear so their instructor takes a few boys off to coach and set the rest to practising their wrestling moves.

Men who are not exercising, are strolling around the grounds arguing and debating who has committed this horrible outrage of destroying the Herms...Alkiabides is named as a possible suspect...gossip is that he broke the Herms in arrogance and a drunken spree...

(a bit of background...Socrates was Alkibiades's teacher, and people blame him for anything Alkibiades does wrong....he is not one to deal lightly with BS and tends to anger people who can not follow his logic so he is not well liked by the general populace)

So Alexias sees Socrates involved in a loud argument with a man and goes over to stretch his ears...the argument gets heated and the man gives Socrates a ringing blow on the head...everyone is outraged but Socrates is not...he nods at the man and says

"Thank you. Now we can all see the force of your arguement"

the man raises his fist to strike again and out from Socrates friends steps a young man...

"and caught the man by the wrist. I knew who it was, not only from seeing him with Socrates or about the city, but because there was a bronze statue of him in Mikkos's hallway, done when he was about sixteen. He was a former pupil, who had won a crown for wrestling, while still in school, at the Panathenaic Games. He was said too to have been among the notable beauties of his year, which one could still believe with no trouble. I saw his name every day, since it was written on the base of the statue; Lysis, son of Demokrates of OExone"

he calmly used a wrestling hold to force the man back and tumbled him down the steps and into the dirt of the wrestling grounds...much to the delight of the boys...

the men went about their conversation...and Alexias stood admiring Lysis...

then Lysis turned and saw him...

Kerry??

would you like to cover this scene for us??

LOL!

I would be pleased to.

There is a great deal going on here. Jess has already described the turmoil in the city. Because Sokrates is an associate of Alkibiades, and Alkibiades is being blamed by many for the desecration of the Herms; ergo, Sokrates, through association, is also being linked to the violation. Sokrates has a reputation for not necessarily being a particularly “religious” man. Because he is so publicly out there, in the agora, he is attracting attention and abuse.

Let us not underestimate the enormity of this despicable outrage. It is an aggressive, forthright attack on the Gods - by mere mortals! Far more serious than common vandalism. There’s a great deal of tension in the City. People are very stressed. Tempers are at boiling point. How will the Gods get even?

A man has lost his temper with Sokrates and is shouting at him. Sokrates holds his own, shouting back, though also using reason, trying to convince the man that Alkibiades should be considered innocent until proven guilty, “The law of evidence for instance?” says Sokrates.

I smiled when the hot-head called Sokrates a cunning snake who could argue black white. I have no doubt that this is true, on both counts!

The man strikes Sokrates. How does Sokrates react? Does he reciprocate in kind or verbally? No. In reality, Socrates was known for his sense of humour and MR obviously knew this from her research, because she provided Sokrates with these words, “Thank you. Now we can all see the force of your argument.” It made me laugh. Sokrates the pacifist, turning the other cheek, looong before Jesus Christ or Mahatma Ghandi!

At this point, we are introduced to Lysis for the first time. He is in the company of Sokrates and comes to his defence. A noble young man. And we know he didn’t lose his temper because we are told that even as he was repelling the attacker’s advance, he retained a calm demeanour, “as if he were sacrificing.” I loved that!

When Kriton tries to convince Sokrates to sue the street thug, Sokrates responds, “Last year an ass bolted in the street and kicked you; but I don’t recall you suing him.” Priceless!

And he chastises Lysis also with, “Just when he was starting to doubt the force of his argument, you re-stated it for him with eloquence and conviction.” That put the young buck, Lysis, right back in his place!   

Though there are no overt fireworks between Alexias and Lysis at this meeting, there is a great deal of simmering underlying sexual tension between them.

This is what we are told about Lysis:

* Alexias had seen him with Sokrates in the past. I’m guessing that Alexias thought he stood-out from the crowd.

* A bronze statue had been made of him when he was 16.

* Alexias saw his name “every day” on the base of the statue, so he must have been admiring it.

* Alexias comments that someone should do a new statue of him now that he is a man. This means to me that Alexias thinks he is beautiful and should be immortalised in bronze.

* He won a crown for wrestling.

* He was “among the notable beauties of his year, which one could still believe without trouble.”

* He was tall and slim.

* He is gracious and courteous. Well-bred. I know this because after he has defended Sokrates, we are told that he looks at Sokrates, “as if with apology for his intrusion.“

* Alexias has seldom heard his voice (could be somewhat like Ennis in this regard?!), except at the horse races, when his voice can be heard over everyone else. Alexias has made a point of listening for his voice! There are sparks!

* Lysis is a man of fashion. Metrosexual? He has the new look - a shaved face!

* I love this description which I am compelled to quote verbatim, "His hair, which he wore short, lay half-curled against his head, and being mingled fair and brown, gleamed like a bronze helmet inlaid with gold.”  He is beautiful, indeed!

* The scene when Lysis turns around and catches Alexias staring at him is particularly charged with sexual dynamism, “He smiled at me however, as if to say, ‘Come nearer, then, if you like; no one will eat you‘.”  Delightful.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2007, 07:29:43 am by Kerry »
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Re: Mary Renault Book Discussion
« Reply #204 on: January 16, 2007, 09:08:40 am »
very well stated...I LOVE to read your posts!

running late this morning and will post more later!!

Offline Kerry

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Re: Mary Renault Book Discussion
« Reply #205 on: January 16, 2007, 05:58:35 pm »
Mary Renault throws certain words into the mix of her narrative which we are expected to understand. And it is often easy to skim-over them and miss an important point.

The very first sentence of chapter 3 is an example:

"When I and the other boys of my age became ephebes . . ."

What is an "ephebe"? It is important that we know this, before we can progress further.

Here's what Wikipedia has to say:

"Ephebos (often in the plural epheboi), also anglicised as ephebe (plural: ephebi), is a Greek word for an adolescent age group or a social status reserved for that age in Antiquity.

Though the word can simply refer to the adolescent age of young men of training age, its main use is for the members, exclusively from that age group, of an official institution (ephebia) that saw to building them into citizens, but especially training them as soldiers, sometimes already sent into the field; the Greek city state (polis) mainly depended, as the Roman republic before Marius's reform, on its militia of citizens for defence."


Ephebe-

« Last Edit: January 16, 2007, 06:35:01 pm by Kerry »
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Offline Kerry

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Re: Mary Renault Book Discussion
« Reply #206 on: January 16, 2007, 06:42:37 pm »
Alkibiades was a real historical personage who lived in Athens 450-404BC. He really was as handsome as Mary Renault describes him. Here's the proof -

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Re: Mary Renault Book Discussion
« Reply #207 on: January 16, 2007, 07:26:06 pm »
and while we are talking real historical characters we can't pass up Alexias's classmate and friend, Xenophon...anyone that has ever had dealings with horses will recognise that name!

MR is quite the name dropper!!

Offline Kerry

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Re: Mary Renault Book Discussion
« Reply #208 on: January 16, 2007, 10:39:25 pm »
and while we are talking real historical characters we can't pass up Alexias's classmate and friend, Xenophon...anyone that has ever had dealings with horses will recognise that name!

MR is quite the name dropper!!

Xenophon
427-355 BC

(this bust rendered later in life)

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Offline Kerry

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Re: Mary Renault Book Discussion
« Reply #209 on: January 17, 2007, 08:00:11 am »
I was delighted to read that Alexias chose to sing a love ballad about legendary lovers, Harmodios and Aristogeiton at the dinner party. A beautiful song, sung by a dazzling young man, in illustrious company. Alas, Kritias has to destroy the charmed atmosphere conjured-up by Alexias and his lyre, by making a licentious remark.

Mary Renault will again write about Harmodios and Aristogeiton in a later book, “The Persian Boy,” where the story of their tragic love is told through dialogue between Alexander and Bagoas:



“Al’sander,” I said, “who were Harmodios and Aristogeiton?”

“Lovers,” he said sleepily. “Famous Athenian lovers. You must have seen their statues on the terrace at Susa. Xerxes took them from Athens.”

“The ones with the daggers? The man and boy?”

“Yes. It’s in Thukydides . . . What’s the matter?”

“What were the daggers for?”

“Killing the tyrant, Hippias. Though they never did it. They only got his brother, which made him more tyrannical.” He roused himself to tell the story. “But they died with honour. The Athenians set great store by them. I’ll send them back sometime. Very old statues. Stiff. The beautiful Harmodios, he’s not fit to do up your shoes.”


A great compliment to Bagoas, from Alexander. Harmodios, knows for his legendary beauty, “not fit to do up (Bagoas’) shoes.” Bagoas must have been quite a heart-breaker!
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