Report of Brokeback Mountain Symbols (Spoilers) -- by flashframe777

[TOoP/Bruce]

by - frog123 (Sat Jan 21 2006 16:01:31 )   

""by - delalluvia
1) Sheep - society, as in 'following like sheep', Jack & Ennis ride the herd, outside of it, not a part of it.
2) dead sheep - gutted, hollowed out - sheep's clothing, hiding something that isn't what it seems
3) Brokeback - the last straw, what burdens
4) colors - blue, red, black and lack of color and what they represent
5) names - Twist - cowboy lingo; also not straight, a surprise; Ennis Del Mar - island of the sea; Signal - warning or sign; Riverton - moving slowly, winding past, flow, Lightning Flat - as in struck by lightning
6) coyotes - tricksters gods, teaching lessons by tricking - not always a pleasant experience
7) flattened harmonica - not harmonic, discord
beans = staple/mundane, elk/wild game = speaks for itself
9) black/white hats - experienced/no experience, guileless/earthy
10) methodist/pentecost - methodists have a system, things are done right a certain way/The Pentecost refers to the day wherin the descent of the Holy Spirit —a transformative and profound experience""

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

""by - flashframe777
1) The sheep--Adam's most favored animal in Eden.

2) The murdered sheep - the end of Ennis' innocence.""

WOW double wow!!!

I love IMDb...I see new things about BBM everyday!

Thank you so much x



www.ennisjack.com



by - SeattleDreamer (Sat Jan 21 2006 16:13:31 )
1) Opening scene, Ennis and Jack waiting for Aguirre. Aguirre shows up, doesn't look at them, walks into trailer. You see Ennis just stopped on the steps, looking very awkward, waiting for permission to go in. Here Ennis and Jack are portrayed as "boys", lacking confidence, unsure of their future. No surprise that Aguirre refers to them as "boys"..... "you boys looking for work you better get your asses in here pronto". If these were older men, do you think Aguirre would have ignored them like that walking in? Also, no surprise that there was no diaglogue whatsoever with Ennis and Jack in that opening scene..... children do not talk. They are boys at the beginning, turn into men on the mountain. Very poignant scene.

2) Also, did you notice that right after that scene, they are walking to the bar, and Jack is walking in front, and Ennis is way behind? They are not talking to each other, yet you have to presume that Jack proposed they go to the bar, and Ennis, the shy one, lags behind.
Re: Brokeback Mountain Symbols Thread (spoilers)   
by - delalluvia (Sat Jan 21 2006 17:28:25 )   
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seattle

No surprise that Aguirre refers to them as "boys"..... "you boys looking for work you better get your asses in here pronto". If these were older men, do you think Aguirre would have ignored them like that walking in? Also, no surprise that there was no diaglogue whatsoever with Ennis and Jack in that opening scene..... children do not talk. They are boys at the beginning, turn into men on the mountain. Very poignant scene.

Aguirre called them a 'pair of deuces'.





by - shrinkrapt (Sat Jan 21 2006 17:32:08 )   
As mentioned on another thread, fire is very symbolic. As Ennis is psyching himself up to apologise to/shag Jack in the tent, he stokes up the fire (passion) and gets up, leaving it blazing mightily.







by - mikel1814 (Sat Jan 21 2006 18:14:03 )   
UPDATED Sat Jan 21 2006 18:22:59
Ok here it goes, there are tons. LOL

Beginning of movie. Semi truck travelling right to left at dusk, Ennis gets out holding nothing but a brown paper bag. All his worldly posessions. This is Ennis' right of passage into a whole new world that he isn't expecting.

End of movie, Ennis climbs into a truck holding nothing but a brown paper bag. What in the beginning of the movie is nothing but odds and ends, trivial materials...extra shirt, tooth brush, razor...becomes a sacred container for the most important thing in his life...it shows that Ennis comes into the movie with what he thinks is important - the few things he has, and ends realizing how trivial all of that really is. The truck drives left to right at dusk and we go into the coda of the movie. This is the beginning of his closure.

Jack Twist. Verbs for struggling to break free. Twist is the term rodeo riders use for the strenth and agility in the legs required to hold on to something for as long as possible to win in the end. Jack, like a jackrabbit.

Black hat. The tragic character. The "bad guy" in the sense that he is more the antagonist of the film. He is fated to meet his demise from the beginning. The person who takes dangerous risks. This is a cinematic term, I'm not saying that Jack is bad, it's just ancient story telling. You cannot have an Ennis Del Mar without a Jack Twist. He is the one that brings about the drama, and in true Greek form, is the one that triggers the change in the protagonist. In this case, loving so much that it kills him.

Blue eyes, blue shirt. Color of the sky. Color of dreams. You can almost imagine him being poor, staring out that dingy bedroom window at the sky at age 15, dreaming of being somewhere else, knowing he doesn't belong there. Staring at the sky for so long that his eyes start to soak up the color.

Ennis Del Mar, Island of the Sea. Walking five paces behind Jack to the bar after they meet. Sitting and pouting on the last day of Brokeback on that hilltop. Alone. Browns and beiges, muted. Playing it safe. Holding in all of his color. White hat. The good cowboy. The one that is going to grow, learn, the protagonist.

Joe Aguirre. Authority. Government, Society. If Brokeback Mountain is the Christian "Eden," Aguirre represents judgement. "He's got no business making us do something against the rules." This is interpereted two was by both characters subconsiously. Jack is saying that he and Ennis should be together, it's in the stars. They should not be apart. It's against the rules of love and fate. Ennis does not respond to this statement, but stares into the distance. He was taught to respect authority. His father plays a strong role in his life, especially since he is dead. He holds his father up next to God. Ennis senses Jack's meaning here but, just like "sticking with the beans," he follows the rules set out by God. By society. By his father. By Aguirre. It isn't until he finally decides to kill the elk that he finds a a way to nurture Jack. Later Aguirre interrupts the utopia. Joe is the name of the everday man. He is just your average Joe. He represents what common society belives. Aguirre is similar to the word "Augerer." An Auger is a one of a group of ancient Roman religious officials who foretold events by observing and interpreting signs and omens. "Look what the wind blew in..."

The sheep have been discussed already. Lamb of God, after Ennis has his "opportunity" to "sin," the lamb has died. This is merely a coincidence, a result of the sheep not being watched. But the death, the sound of flies, the sheep ripped open, seems to Ennis as a sign from God and authority that the rules have been broken. He is now a sinner.

As the movie progresses, the colors I mentioned earlier begin to appear in many places. Jack's "blue parka." Ennis has a light blue truck. In our first scene with Alma, she is wearing Ennis' beige, in her hat. She has adopted the heart of Ennis. Ennis' winter hat is blue. He is still connected to Jack. Later, we see Ennis getting ready to head off to visit Jack, and he's wearing a Beige shirt with blue stripes. This is probably the time in the film in which he is the most balanced. He has the best of both worlds. This has a claming effect on him, but as we all know, things do not stay this way for long in life, and things begin to go downhill.

Blue is also the color of love in this film. It's almost as if it's a beacon, or a neon sign trying to attract Ennis' attention to reassure him of love. First it's Jack, then Alma Jr. is wearing bluebird earrings when she's trying to convince him to let her move in with him - let her love him, let her into his life. (Where bluebirds sing and there's a whiskey spring.)

The tents in the last several trips are also blue, they are the safe haven of their love, next to the rushing blue water, under the big blue sky.

Jack's mother at the end of the film is wearing a blue sweater, there is a blue towel hanging from the stove and a blue coffee pot. Everything else in that scene is washed out white, but it's as if the area around her is awash in a blue aura. She represents love. Alma Jr's sweater at the end of the film has large blue stripes on it.

Although there aren't very many things in Jack's room, which has a ghostly, tomb like feel to it, the things that are there represent all of his dreams.

The cowboy on the desk, the baby shoes on the dresser, the gun hanging from the wall. The stick on the window ledge, to hold open the window - to allow the sounds of the outside - the sounds of the wind in the distance - his childhood dreams...to reach him inside. And yet Ennis still hasn't found the answer he is looking for. He is drawn into the closet, and he finds it.

The mailbox. Putting his address stickers carefully in place. Finally allowing for communication. Finally allowing those that love him in.

Alma Jr's future husband is "Kurt." or "Curt" Curt means "terse, using few words, getting to the point without being overly expressive." Alma has fallen in love with a man like her father. Of course she has.


And of course, the open window at the end. Ennis' dreams - a wide open field, with no Mountain towering over him. We are trapped inside the claustrophobic trailer, yet we are allowed to gaze out of the window. Into the distance like Jack did as a child. Into Ennis' future, which seems hopeful. A blank, uninterrupted canvas. Another chance to get it right. Next to that, Ennis' world, his daughters blue sweater, his lovers blue shirt. His worldy posessions, locked deep inside.

[TOoP/Bruce]

by - chefjudy (Sun Jan 22 2006 12:20:27 )   

this is great - please read







by - flashframe777 (Sun Jan 22 2006 14:53:31 )   
Michael1814...that was absolutely beautiful.

"You bet." --Ennis del Mar




by - mikel1814 (Sun Jan 22 2006 20:22:29 )   
Thanks for the bumping and compliments. That's usually how I end a really good Saturday night...




by - breakfastonmars (Sun Jan 22 2006 21:05:50 )   
Mike, I second (or third) that --- beautiful post! Beautiful thread.

I want to add a few things (then I have to go to bed).

I find the recurence of the opening scene (that shot where the truck is driving on the screen) later in the movie to be one of the most (if not the most) beautiful shot in the movie.

It is such a wide shot and at first Ennis is traveling in a truck with someone, and in the later shot he is travelig in his own car.

I find the second shot to be so beautiful and lonely. Just Ennis traveling at dusk and it is such a wide shot on a lonely country road that you can just sense this beautiful loneliness watching Ennis drive through on that road with not a single other being in that shot. And having the same shot twice in a movie - but with twenty year's difference and once right before he is to meet his true love and the second time after he has lost hime - speaks volumes about time, to me.

Also, I believe that there is hardly any score in the first four year's that Jack and Ennis are apart after herding the sheep... the score starts again when Jack re-appears on Ennis' doorstep. I thought that was a beautiful and clever touch.

Also, to me Ennis folding his daughter's sweater was a very symbolic gesture. He at first wants to give it back to her, but then folds it for her when he knows she has gone. This is a very paternal gesture (folding a child's clothig for them) and says, to me, that Ennis knows that this someone will be apart of his life, so he is keeping something of hers in his trailer for when she comes the next time. He is accepting that she is in his life this way, and he seems content with this fact.

Also, at the end when he asks "Does he love you?" when his daughter says she is getting married... I believe this is the first time that Ennis utters the word love in the movie, perhaps in his life.

His marriage to Alma was not about love (at least not on his part) and he could not admit that he loved Jack, so him saying this was a very monumental step, in my view. In asking that question he is saying "I realize that love is important"... which to me is what really struck me.

The journey that Ennis goes through is about accepting that love is important. A natural after-effect of realizing the importance of love is realizing the importance of self-love, but it is about Ennis' acceptance of love first and foremost.





by - kodack10 (Sun Jan 22 2006 21:31:58 )   
That was beautiful breakfast on mars. Sharing those ideas are what I love about movie boards. The movies over, you've spent your two yours watching it. But you spend the next month discussing it, analyzing it, thinking about it.

Kodack





Sheep shagging might have been less controversial.   
by - kodack10 (Sun Jan 22 2006 20:25:28 )   
I had a strange thought during those scenes in isolation up on the mountain. A film about guys being lonely and having sex with sheep would have probably gone over with the public easier than a film about honest love among 2 men.

That thought doesn't reflect an opinion of the movie, it's more of an opinion of the masses of people who won't see this movie.

Kodack




Re: Sheep shagging might have been less controversial.   
by - delalluvia (Sun Jan 22 2006 20:32:17 )   
I posted this on another thread:

Ennis is looking at the disemboweled sheep - what's left? A sheep-skin, the wool of a sheep.

As in 'pulling the wool over one's eyes' or 'wolf in sheep's clothing' the sheepskin has come off to reveal someone who isn't what he seems -

cut to

Jack, naked and exposed {doing laundry) shivers and looks around.

and this symbol was mentioned in another post/thread. As Ennis is hugging the shirts to him at the end, and someone remarked how the hanger hook made a question mark shape against his face.

Upon my 9th viewing today, I realized that instead of a question mark, it - if anything other than just a hanger - could symbolize a shepherds crook.

[TOoP/Bruce]

by - meryl_88 (Sun Jan 22 2006 23:26:36 )   
Thanks to everyone for the marvelous insights. Every time I see the movie I see more because of these threads.

I'd just like to mention a couple of things having to do with Ennis and Jack being symbols of Earth and Air, respectively.

Regarding the scene where Alma, kneeling on the bed, embraces Ennis from behind, coaxing him to accept a move into town where he won't feel so lonely: others have noted elsewhere that Ennis's face becomes a mask at the word "lonely" as his thoughts presumably turn to Jack. Watching the film after reading the comments here, I realized suddenly that Ang Lee absolutely tells us this is the case: in the pause before Ennis turns to kiss Alma, the wind can be heard distinctly beating against the house. This sound would not have been there as the actors shot the scene but added later by the sound effects department. It literally gave me chills.

The scene at the Twist house: I used to feel sorry for Jack's mother that she couldn't give Ennis her son's ashes due to the father's obdurate refusal. However, now I've come to feel that in the act of putting the shirts into the bag which Ennis is holding for her, she is actually committing Jack (the blue shirt) to the Earth (Ennis/the brown bag) symbolically. The rite is still accomplished.

One more thought, about the dead sheep discovered the morning after Ennis and Jack first have sex. When I first saw the film, I saw it mainly as a symbol of punishment for Ennis's irresponsibility. But in later viewings it became more of a symbol of things to come, a mute warning that something had now changed that would set them on a tragic course. The bloody sheep, watched helplessly by the whimpering dog, calls up the image of Ennis mourning the murdered Jack. Or you could take it to symbolize how Ennis and Jack are destined to be "gutted" over the years by their fears, secrecy and lies, while their loved ones stand by, powerless to change things.






by - SpookyRabbitInDaYard (Sun Jan 22 2006 23:34:50 )   
The piece of music that is missing from the soundtrack CD (one of them, there is at least one more...), I think of as the death theme.

It begins with the dead sheep, with the flashback of Earl's death by dragging, with the postcard and its red word and with the discovery of the shirts.

Powerful piece of music, really well used...


"Yes ma'am, I'll have a cup a coffee, but I can't eat no cake just now."





by - Julie01 (Sun Jan 22 2006 23:43:13 )   
hey, that's my favorite music from ther movie--not on the sound track?

"You come back and see us again"--Jack's mother
Re: Brokeback Mountain Symbols Thread (spoilers)   
by - SpookyRabbitInDaYard (Sun Jan 22 2006 23:48:13 )   
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Nope. It's all minor key keyboards and the only real violin in the movie.

I guess they thought it would interrupt the country/acoustic guitar flow of the CD?

It's my favorite music too, Julie! Very dramatic...

"Yes ma'am, I'll have a cup a coffee, but I can't eat no cake just now."

[TOoP/Bruce]

by - henrypie (Tue Jan 24 2006 09:10:24 )   

meryl88:
I had not thought of the act of putting the shirts in the brown bag as a symbolic interring of Jack's remains -- absolutely beautiful and well-observed. Thank you.





by - bjblakeslee (Tue Jan 24 2006 04:08:44 )   
>>This thread is about the use of symbology used in Brokeback Mountain.

Add what you know to the list:

1) The sheep--Adam's most favored animal in Eden.

2) The murdered sheep - the end of Ennis' innocence. I posted this before on another <<

Ennis talks to Jack about having shot a cayote with "balls the size of apples" on one of his returns to the camp. This also amplifies the Eden theme with a "forbidden fruit" reference.





by - Countess_of_Moldovia (Tue Jan 24 2006 09:06:28 )   

I don't follow this board too closely so forgive me if I'm posting incorrectly or redundantly or whatever.

Sheep have always been a biblical sign of innocence. Christ refers to the church (the body of believers) as sheep, and he says "you must become like little children to follow me."

In short, sheep represent blind purity and innocence.

HOWEVER,

The metaphor is extended by the reference to Christ as the sacrificial sheep. He is also refered to as a Lion amongst other things, all depending on the particular aspect of his personality that is being discussed.

Jesus as the Lamb of God is the ultimate sacrifice - the blood that must be spilled to atone for the sins of the world.

I believe the dead sheep is used in both capacities here, first as a sign of the end of innocence (as someone once said) and as a foreshadowing of Jack's ultimate death, the blood that will be spilled on account of his love and "sacrifice" (I use that term metaphorically) for Ennis.



http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14118






by - ThE_FiLmMaKer90 (Tue Jan 24 2006 09:15:06 )   
I really need everyone to go read this post:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0388795/board/nest/34552269
cheers
[email protected]


by - Flickfan-3 (Tue Jan 24 2006 09:21:40 )
breakfastonmars--you referred to Ennis folding Jr.'s sweater--notice how he did it--held it tucked under his chin, took both sleeves out and folded into the middle--like an embrace in and of itself, before folding it and putting it on shelf in his wardrobe

the hanger hook--very well could symbolize a shepard's crook--but remember at the last reunion--I think in the story it is Jack that draws a comparison between a coat hanger used to open a car window (there is that allusion again) -- something about how it is bent almost back to original and does not show any ill effect of being undone and I am sorry I don't have that quote handy because it seems doubly strong with the effect of the shirts entertwined and embracing--not just each other but their own individual fates--



by - delalluvia (Tue Jan 24 2006 11:44:18 )   

flickfan

the hanger hook--very well could symbolize a shepard's crook--but remember at the last reunion--I think in the story it is Jack that draws a comparison between a coat hanger used to open a car window (there is that allusion again) -- something about how it is bent almost back to original and does not show any ill effect of being undone and I am sorry I don't have that quote handy because it seems doubly strong with the effect of the shirts entertwined and embracing--not just each other but their own individual fates--

I don't see how that follows. Can you explain more?

Team Jolie


by - Flickfan-3 (Tue Jan 24 2006 12:43:17 )   

dellaluvia
sorry my connection/explanation was confusing
I meant that 1--there was specific mention of a coat hanger in the original story during the last reunion/fight scene on the mountain when one of them --think it was Ennis but can't say for sure --compares their fight to a coat hanger that can be bent out of shape to pop open a car door through its window(again the window/door images) and then can be reshaped to its original form w/o showing any damage or change from the original---
2)in the movie the coat hanger is on inside of closet door with the two bloodstained shirts entertwined--I remember this second coat hanger as having a wooden crosspiece -- not a wire hanger-- so it is not the kind that can be used to jimmy a car door -- this relationship is now fixed, can't be changed from its original shape--won't be opening any more "windows" --since Jack is dead and Ennis has gone through his catharsis-- but it still supports and uplifts the two shirts, the symbols of their metaphysical, eternal embrace.
Any better?


by - delalluvia (Tue Jan 24 2006 16:54:26 )   

ejunk

Naw, Ennis was just carving a rough horse shape. There was no cowboy on top. Jack's 'cowboy' looked like a favorite childhood toy. I think it's just a symbol that both men wanted to be cowboys and neither quite made it.

flick
sorry my connection/explanation was confusing
I meant that 1--there was specific mention of a coat hanger in the original story during the last reunion/fight scene on the mountain when one of them --think it was Ennis but can't say for sure --compares their fight to a coat hanger that can be bent out of shape to pop open a car door through its window(again the window/door images) and then can be reshaped to its original form w/o showing any damage or change from the original---

I think the POV is the author's - couldn't say otherwise if it was Ennis or Jack's opinion since the short story is mostly Ennis' POV, but right after this section about the fight, it segues into Jack's POV.

2)in the movie the coat hanger is on inside of closet door with the two bloodstained shirts entertwined--I remember this second coat hanger as having a wooden crosspiece -- not a wire hanger-- so it is not the kind that can be used to jimmy a car door -- this relationship is now fixed, can't be changed from its original shape--won't be opening any more "windows" --since Jack is dead and Ennis has gone through his catharsis-- but it still supports and uplifts the two shirts, the symbols of their metaphysical, eternal embrace.

Ah, gotcha. Mmm, a possibility I grant you, but for this to make sense in the movie, there would have had to have been mention of the hanger in the movie's story, but it was not for obvious reasons. So your suggestion of the hanger's symbolic meaning depends on the fans of the movie/story being able to shift from the story to the movie for it to make sense. Those only familiar with the movie won't get it. It would be like an 'in' joke that only few would understand.

Team Jolie






Re: Brokeback Mountain Symbols Thread (spoilers)   
by - ejunk86d (Tue Jan 24 2006 15:17:25 )   
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One thing that struck me was "The cowboy on the desk." When they were on the mountain the first summer, Jack's up sleeping with the sheep and Ennis is in camp. I think it's even raining and he's in the tent (will have to go see movie again to confirm this). Anyway, Ennis is carving a horse and rider; did he give that to Jack and that is what is on his childhood bedroom's desk?

Thoughts on symbolism (if any)?

[TOoP/Bruce]

Jack Nasty loves you!

by - RobertPlant (Wed Feb 1 2006 05:51:28 )
Maybe it has already been noticed:

- The water, that washes away the "sin"...
Jack washes his clothes after their first night..

- Moreover he's naked and shivers..
nudity and "cold" here may represent his vulnerability and fear in front of his feelings

Btw in my opinion this scene means that the one with Ennis is his first
experience with an other man.





by - fernly (Sat Feb 4 2006 00:30:15 )   

UPDATED Sat Feb 4 2006 00:31:46
lightning--Jack is from Lightning Flat..
in the story's reunion scene after Alma had seen them kiss, "Behind her in the room the lightning lit the window like a white sheet waving"...
in the movie, (help me out here, I don't remember exactly when this scence occurred, damn I'll have to go see the movie, again) Jack is sleeping on the mountain, sheep dog near him, lightning in the distance - maybe over the camp where Ennis is?




Re: Brokeback Mountain Symbols Thread (spoilers)   
by - RobertPlant (Sat Feb 4 2006 02:15:49 )   
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Yes, Jack is looking at the camp...on one of the first nights they spend there.




by - jmmgallagher (Fri Feb 10 2006 22:02:46 )   
There is so much trash on this board, and this thread is pure gold.

BUMP!

"And it was light--"






by - cheriberry (Fri Feb 10 2006 22:14:24 )   

This thread itself is a symbol -- of the end of intelligent life as we know it.


by - jmmgallagher (Fri Feb 10 2006 22:22:16 )   

Of course, we have to hear from the dark side....





by - Front-Ranger (Sat Feb 11 2006 12:36:02 )   

What about laundry. On the mountain, Jack launders his and Ennis' shirts in the stream on the day after the tent scene. Later, we see Alma using a washboard to do the family laundry in the kitchen. Then they move to an apartment over a laundromat. As time goes by, the laundering becomes more high-tech, but it still seems to stand for something primordial.






by - ulm89 (Sat Feb 11 2006 17:47:18 )   
IMPORTANT:

I don't know if anyone noticed a parallelism... (maybe it's just in my mind dunno..) :
ennis finds the sheep dead, violently killed by another animal----> ennis remembers when he was a child and saw a man terribly killed by his father (more or less in the same position of the sheep)---->Jack dies beacause he was abandoned like the sheep and ennis didn't take care of him...

another thing: did anyone notice that the little cowboy on Jack's desk at the end of the film was made by ennis at the beginning?

did anyone also notice that Jack, even though he is much more active and "revolutionary" than ennis, often tries to imitate him? for eg when he says he's not a begger to the barman (ennis had told Jack something very similar when Jack had offered him some money)or when Jack marries that f....g Laureen only beacause Ennis was about to get merried to Alma...






by - RobertPlant (Sun Feb 12 2006 02:20:20 )   
I agree about the meaning of the dead ship...

As for the little cowboy: Ennis was making just a horse (without cowboy) and it was pretty larger than the one on Jack desk.
Anyway everybody makes this association..maybe you could think they had similar objects, Ennis' room had to be more or less like the Jack's one, when he was a kid.

Finally I don't think Jack marries Lureen to imitate Ennis, but to "settle" down in every respect.

I'm packing my bags for the Misty Mountains
over the hills where the spirits fly



Symbolism: the calves   
by - pipedream 2 days ago (Thu Mar 16 2006 01:33:56 )   
UPDATED Thu Mar 16 2006 08:38:29
I posted this in another thread yesterday, but thought it just fits in here:

Did anybody notice how Ennis mentions calves two times in this movie when talking about his work?

During Cassie's and Ennis' first conversation she asks him what he does for a living and he answers that until yesterday he was castrating calves (don't know the exact wording for I saw it dubbed). Why doesn't he just say he was a ranch hand? Of course it has a meaning. To castrate a calf means to turn in into a sexless being, only there to live and eat, put on weight and someday get eaten.
At that point in his life Ennis sort of is like a sexless being himself: his life reduced to mere existence, him being there only to eat and drink, smoke, sleep, go to work and pay for the kids. He is only a shell of a human being and a shadow of his former self, except for the time he can spend with Jack. However, these occasions are obviously getting even rarer as years go by. Their happy days are positively numbered.

And now, remember the supermarket scene earlier on? Before he leaves Alma with the kids he says he has to be there when the cows were going to calve: New life to be born, happy days with Jack still ahead! Upcoming opportunities to seize!

From the fact that years later he had to castrate the beasts rather than help them into this world you can tell that even his job is getting more and more depressing, just like his life.



If ever I should tell the moment: Oh, stay! You are so beautiful! Then you may cast me into chains, then shall I smile upon perdition! (Goethe)



Re: Symbolism: the calves   
by - Front-Ranger 2 days ago (Thu Mar 16 2006 07:46:36 )   
Great insight. Also, what about calf roping. Ennis' father was "a fine ~" The bartender asked Jack if he'd ever tried ~. Before you castrate em you have to catch em. Does the symbolism have to do with cutting short one's life and opportunities or restricting them to what society says is okay?

Front-Ranger
"There ain't no reins on this one."






by - (name removed by request0 2 days ago (Thu Mar 16 2006 18:08:33 )   
Eating elk: Jack has a mouthful (overly full)--Jack lived life more fully (bit off more than he could chew?). Ennis is nibbling off a bone--Ennis took whatever bones life threw at him; he never sought anything for himself.




by - reannawrites 1 day ago (Fri Mar 17 2006 12:30:01 )   


This might not be very symbolic - but there were several cigarette butts in Lureen's ashtray in the scene with her and Jack before he leaves for his trip and is looking for his parka...I just felt it represented all of her repression and tension...non-stop smoking.

Great thread guys - some of these ideas above are truly amazing.






Add what you know to the list:

1) The sheep--Adam's most favored animal in Eden.

2) The murdered sheep - the end of Ennis' innocence. I posted this before on another <<

Ennis talks to Jack about having shot a cayote with "balls the size of apples" on one of his returns to the camp. This also amplifies the Eden theme with a "forbidden fruit" reference.
Re: Brokeback Mountain Symbols Thread (spoilers)   
by - Countess_of_Moldovia (Tue Jan 24 2006 09:06:28 )   
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I don't follow this board too closely so forgive me if I'm posting incorrectly or redundantly or whatever.

Sheep have always been a biblical sign of innocence. Christ refers to the church (the body of believers) as sheep, and he says "you must become like little children to follow me."

In short, sheep represent blind purity and innocence.

HOWEVER,

The metaphor is extended by the reference to Christ as the sacrificial sheep. He is also refered to as a Lion amongst other things, all depending on the particular aspect of his personality that is being discussed.

Jesus as the Lamb of God is the ultimate sacrifice - the blood that must be spilled to atone for the sins of the world.

I believe the dead sheep is used in both capacities here, first as a sign of the end of innocence (as someone once said) and as a foreshadowing of Jack's ultimate death, the blood that will be spilled on account of his love and "sacrifice" (I use that term metaphorically) for Ennis.



http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14118



by - ThE_FiLmMaKer90 (Tue Jan 24 2006 09:15:06 )   

I really need everyone to go read this post:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0388795/board/nest/34552269


cheers

[email protected]




by - Flickfan-3 (Tue Jan 24 2006 09:21:40 )   

breakfastonmars--you referred to Ennis folding Jr.'s sweater--notice how he did it--held it tucked under his chin, took both sleeves out and folded into the middle--like an embrace in and of itself, before folding it and putting it on shelf in his wardrobe

the hanger hook--very well could symbolize a shepard's crook--but remember at the last reunion--I think in the story it is Jack that draws a comparison between a coat hanger used to open a car window (there is that allusion again) -- something about how it is bent almost back to original and does not show any ill effect of being undone and I am sorry I don't have that quote handy because it seems doubly strong with the effect of the shirts entertwined and embracing--not just each other but their own individual fates--


Re: Brokeback Mountain Symbols Thread (spoilers)   
by - delalluvia (Tue Jan 24 2006 11:44:18 )   
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flickfan

the hanger hook--very well could symbolize a shepard's crook--but remember at the last reunion--I think in the story it is Jack that draws a comparison between a coat hanger used to open a car window (there is that allusion again) -- something about how it is bent almost back to original and does not show any ill effect of being undone and I am sorry I don't have that quote handy because it seems doubly strong with the effect of the shirts entertwined and embracing--not just each other but their own individual fates--

I don't see how that follows. Can you explain more?

Team Jolie
Re: Brokeback Mountain Symbols Thread (spoilers)   
by - Flickfan-3 (Tue Jan 24 2006 12:43:17 )   
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dellaluvia
sorry my connection/explanation was confusing
I meant that 1--there was specific mention of a coat hanger in the original story during the last reunion/fight scene on the mountain when one of them --think it was Ennis but can't say for sure --compares their fight to a coat hanger that can be bent out of shape to pop open a car door through its window(again the window/door images) and then can be reshaped to its original form w/o showing any damage or change from the original---
2)in the movie the coat hanger is on inside of closet door with the two bloodstained shirts entertwined--I remember this second coat hanger as having a wooden crosspiece -- not a wire hanger-- so it is not the kind that can be used to jimmy a car door -- this relationship is now fixed, can't be changed from its original shape--won't be opening any more "windows" --since Jack is dead and Ennis has gone through his catharsis-- but it still supports and uplifts the two shirts, the symbols of their metaphysical, eternal embrace.
Any better?
Re: Brokeback Mountain Symbols Thread (spoilers)   
by - delalluvia (Tue Jan 24 2006 16:54:26 )   
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ejunk

Naw, Ennis was just carving a rough horse shape. There was no cowboy on top. Jack's 'cowboy' looked like a favorite childhood toy. I think it's just a symbol that both men wanted to be cowboys and neither quite made it.

flick
sorry my connection/explanation was confusing
I meant that 1--there was specific mention of a coat hanger in the original story during the last reunion/fight scene on the mountain when one of them --think it was Ennis but can't say for sure --compares their fight to a coat hanger that can be bent out of shape to pop open a car door through its window(again the window/door images) and then can be reshaped to its original form w/o showing any damage or change from the original---

I think the POV is the author's - couldn't say otherwise if it was Ennis or Jack's opinion since the short story is mostly Ennis' POV, but right after this section about the fight, it segues into Jack's POV.

2)in the movie the coat hanger is on inside of closet door with the two bloodstained shirts entertwined--I remember this second coat hanger as having a wooden crosspiece -- not a wire hanger-- so it is not the kind that can be used to jimmy a car door -- this relationship is now fixed, can't be changed from its original shape--won't be opening any more "windows" --since Jack is dead and Ennis has gone through his catharsis-- but it still supports and uplifts the two shirts, the symbols of their metaphysical, eternal embrace.

Ah, gotcha. Mmm, a possibility I grant you, but for this to make sense in the movie, there wo

[TOoP/Bruce]

These threads are cool.

Concerning the contrast between the Thanksgiving turkey cutting scenes. .. when keeping in mind the form of turkey carving, we see Jack actually doing the main carving of the turkey with a real knife, and just after taking over the position of lead duck or whatever the father-in-law called it. This established Jack's masculinity and role as hero, (albeit a tragic one since he "saves" Ennis in the end through his own death).

Contrasting that to the other thanksgiving where Monroe is using an electric knife (though definitely accurate in establishing a period fad) where Ennis isn't even doing the carving, Lee is establishing Ennis as being compromised in his masculinity, playing second fiddle to someone who isn't even man enough to use a real knife to carve the turkey. His state is that of one who is fallen and in need of rescue, an angel with no wings.. .


next - the scene where Jack suggests shooting a sheep. Simply put, Ennis states that he's content to endure beans until the next allotment of food arrives, but Jack states "Well, I'm not". Beans symbolizing the poor, mundane and lowest desireable element of sustenance, fresh meat symbolizing bounty and richness, a wealth of existence. .. something Jack always reaches for while Ennis is afraid to do it. It's a metaphore of their future relationship, and indeed their lives.

Jack is the risk taker, willing to break rules, Ennis is the fearful one, who survives. But just barely.

[TrollHammer]

I just want to add that the above post starting "These threads are cool" was
by iamlaron   (Sat May 20 2006 00:36:59)

and that the following question got posted -- which I think may have gotten its own thread later:

by BannerHill   (Thu Jun 22 2006 10:49:21)   

Why was there a pentagram pianted on the side of the barn outside of Jack's window?

Oracle, you totally rock.  Right now I'm mostly just saving copies of threads off the other board, but I do plan to repost them here if I can possibly manage it.  My copies are mostly recently saved, so they're missing Clancy and toycoon and Dozy and you.

TrollHammer