Garden of Eden Symbolism -- by henrypie

[TOoP/Bruce]

Garden of Eden symbolism   
  by henrypie     (Sun Jan 22 2006 17:05:51 )   
   
I know there are threads galore dealing with but I lost them all.... Here's my point real quick and then someone can give me a link to an existing thread and we can let this thread fade out:

Day after the first night in the tent: while Ennis is discovering the slain sheep, losing his innocence in a way (much commented upon), Jack is washing his clothes in the river. He crouches, shivering, smacking his shirt with a stick; his body language spells shame -- he's trying to wash out the stain of his sin, and he's NAKED -- the original awareness of sin God visited on Adam and Eve.

I'm sure someone has commented on this, but maybe it got buried.

For henrypie so loved Brokeback Mountain, that she gave her only free Sunday afternoon to see it again.

Re: Garden of Eden symbolism   
  by thefleetsin     (Sun Jan 22 2006 17:10:02 )   
   
Can we all say, STREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEETCH!! LOL

Is there anything that has ever been produced that Christians cannot read some whacked out biblical reference into.




Jack was washing his clothes because they were dirty? Just a wild guess on my part. LOL






Steve

Re: Garden of Eden symbolism   
  by henrypie     (Sun Jan 22 2006 17:13:47 )   
   
But he's so obviously naked. I don't think it's a stretch at all and I'm not looking for Christian allegory. I just think I found a whiff. He's
crouched
naked
shivering
whacking

mmmmm

Re: Garden of Eden symbolism   
  by thefleetsin     (Sun Jan 22 2006 17:16:41 )   
   
Yes I understand the whacking part now. It's much like Adam 'whacked' when Eve was off shopping for fruits and vegetables.




Steve

Re: Garden of Eden symbolism   
  by egoamo     (Sun Jan 22 2006 17:17:01 )   
   
What sin? If you think that they "sinned", then you are missing the whole point of the movie.

Re: Garden of Eden symbolism   
  by montferrat     (Sun Jan 22 2006 17:21:45 )   
   
Actually henrypie does bring up something worth discussing. I felt there was some sort of sybolism or foreshadowing going on when it cut from the disemboweled sheep to a "vulnerable" ie: naked Jack.

"hunh?" ~ Ennis del Mar

Re: Garden of Eden symbolism   
  by henrypie     (Sun Jan 22 2006 17:23:06 )   

Rrrrrrr

First of all, I know they haven't sinned, but they don't know that. And even cutting sin from our vocabulary (please!), they certainly lost their innocence. They're AWARE now of how they feel. This is a little metaphor in a movie of metaphors -- Brokeback Mountain itself is a pretty juicy metaphor for the higher plane of their relationship, above all the lies, fears and disappointments of the world below.

Re: Garden of Eden symbolism   
  by delalluvia     (Sun Jan 22 2006 18:02:25 )   
   
Um, if you're looking for symbolism of that scene, perhaps this POV will help - but it's not biblical.

Ennis is looking at the disemboweled sheep - what's left? A sheep-skin, the wool of a sheep.

As in 'pulling the wool over one's eyes' or 'wolf in sheep's clothing' the sheepskin has come off to reveal someone who isn't what he seems -

cut to Jack, naked and exposed.

How's that?

Re: Garden of Eden symbolism   
  by poorlittleteacher     (Sun Jan 22 2006 18:08:20 )   

There's some Eden symbolism there. Eden was too perfect for this world, and even though it could possibly have stayed around if all involved kept their eyes closed and just ran around naked (kinda a salty view of Jake's utopia but a bit accurate), someone (Ennis, in my opinion) had to fall and remind them that their asses were showing and it's best to cover up.

Something like that.

Re: Garden of Eden symbolism   
  by b_hynds     (Sun Jan 22 2006 18:08:51 )   

"Ennis is looking at the disemboweled sheep - what's left? A sheep-skin, the wool of a sheep.

As in 'pulling the wool over one's eyes' or 'wolf in sheep's clothing' the sheepskin has come off to reveal someone who isn't what he seems -

cut to Jack, naked and exposed.

How's that?"

Oh I like that POV!


"I did once" - BBM

Re: Garden of Eden symbolism   
  by henrypie     (Sun Jan 22 2006 18:12:07 )   
   
Comment on the Bible as literature: the Bible is literature, a treasure trove of stories and legends. It's also a religious text (that's the trouble). The end.

Re: Garden of Eden symbolism   
  by Yuki_Cross     (Sun Jan 22 2006 22:32:07 )   
   
<< For henrypie so loved Brokeback Mountain, that she gave her only free Sunday afternoon to see it again. >>

Amen, sister! I saw the 4pm show by me-self this Sunday afternoon. Sheep be damned....

Re: Garden of Eden symbolism   
  by Spooky_Rabbit     (Sun Jan 22 2006 22:38:22 )   
   
Thank you for the thoughts posted here. Very interesting, much food for thought...

I am certain this film is going to spawn entire courses in universities based upon threads like this one.

There is so much to soak in and connect. Ang Lee the genius? Or Larry McMurty and Diana Ossana and Annie Proulx?

All of them I'm sure, but alot of the "bookending" in the film and the visual metaphors must belong to Lee...


"Yes ma'am, I'll have a cup a coffee, but I can't eat no cake just now."

Re: Garden of Eden symbolism (SPOILERS, of course)   
  by austendw      (Mon Jan 23 2006 04:34:11 )   

UPDATED Mon Jan 23 2006 04:35:08
I agree with you entirely, Casey. Some time back I intended to write on this subject, prompted by a post that, while it pointed up some interesting thoelogical/biblical issues, seemed to me to attribute a too fully articulated and schematic theological scenario to the story. But this didn't come to pass for some reason or another: probably just my laziness.

Whether consciously or not, Proulx and the adapters of the film have infused the story - particularly the early Brokeback Mountain scenes, with resonant allusions to Biblical myth - especially the Garden of Eden episode.

For a start let's make one thing clear: none of the story/film makers believe that Ennis & Jack's relationship is, in an absolute, theological, judgmental way, a "sin". I suspect that it is aversion to such an idea that prompted some of the more aggressive posts on this thread. (In fact, to digress for a moment, I actually suspect that the ancient writer of the Garden of Eden story was somewhat ambivalent upon this issue. After all, while Adam & Eve do disobey the instruction not to eat of the tree, their transgression is not exactly unbeneficial. God is represented as lying to them: they are told they will die on the spot if they eat the fruit. Not so. And the supposedly wicked serpent turns out to be quite right when he says: "God knows that on the day you eat it your eyes will be opened, and you shall be like God, knowing good and evil." It is the acquisition of this knowledge that makes mankind "god-like". Without it what would we be? Merely children. This is analogous to the Greeks' story of Prometheus: he also transgresses, this time by stealing the fire of the gods. And what would mankind be without fire?)

But while no-one wishes to claim that our protagonists "sin" in a theologically absolute way, within the confines of their world and their time, they do break a very serious taboo. Their behaviour is thus, in their own minds, significantly transgressive; both have disobeyed the law of their time; both have eaten the forbidden fruit; they have lost their "innocence" (or, perhaps more accurately, their ignorance). As you have so rightly pointed out, the "morning after" scenes show Jack naked, exposed, vulnerable, (perhaps anxiously guilty also? Washing his clothes to clean metaphorical as well as literal stains?) and Ennis suffering a sense of shame and guilt at the consequences of his actions. Jack and Ennis are henceforth exposed to danger: the danger of exposure. Whether eventually Jack actually is murdered or not, Ennis's memory of the old rancher's death clearly reveals that by transgressing their world's sexual rules, they are at risk of merciless mortal punishment. Ennis's guilt, shame and fear stay with him throughout his life.

One can perhaps go a little further with the Eden parallel. In the biblical myth, Adam & Eve's sin is discovered by God when he was "walking in the garden in the cool of the day". Just as Aguirre, god-like, spies on Jack and Ennis from a distance; he knows what they are up to. It also seems to me that the film points up the Eden parallel when Aguirre calls them down from the mountain early (it's in the story, but less emphatically) - they are almost literally expelled from their Paradise. I am not suggesting that Aguirre does it simply because he's seen their behaviour, (this expulsion is more an allusion to the myth than an exact allegorically parallel,) but he certainly loses confidence in them, and there is no doubt that, because of what he saw, he will not be hiring Jack the following year. (Is my memory defective or does he actually say “Get out of my office” at the end of that scene? Another explicit expulsion?) Either way, there may be no cherubim and no flaming sword, but there is no way that Jack and Ennis can go back; their Paradise is lost, and they spend the rest of their lives trying to recreate it. Just as Adam is cursed with a hard life ("by the sweat of your brow you shall eat") so Ennis toils to scrape together a living; and Jack complains towards the end "Nothin never come to my hand the right way."

Perhaps it is this dark mythic resonance that speaks to so many people, that makes the film so much more universal in appeal than its story would ever have lead one to expect.

(This may be highly fanciful, but I was wondering how Annie Proulx chose the foreman's name. Did she have a reason? Was it plucked from the ether? Did she unconsciously associate the name with the Werner Herzog movie known in the US as Aguirre: The Wrath of God?)



Re: Garden of Eden symbolism   
  by Jamessemaj12     (Mon Jan 23 2006 04:59:23 )   
   
UPDATED Tue Jan 24 2006 05:20:22
I don't buy that cause for one I don't think JACK would consider being with Ennis a sin as much as Ennis would and also I believe it is the shirt of Ennis he is washing not his and if that's the case the whacking of the shirt would be in anger from Ennis acting like a drunk frat boy after they were with each other. I still say the slain sheep is to reinforce the guilt that Ennis feels over sleeping with Jack. He thinks had he not slept with Jack the coyote would have not been able to kill the sheep so he naturally feels guilty about having gay sex and then seeing this animal which he thinks would be alive had he not been with Jack naturally adds to his guilt.
just my 2¢ worth :-) .


"But all in all, it's been a fabulous year for Laura and me." BUSH. after 9/11 attacks, 12/20/2001

Re: Garden of Eden symbolism (SPOILERS, of course)   
  by delalluvia     (Mon Jan 23 2006 05:49:05 )   

(This may be highly fanciful, but I was wondering how Annie Proulx chose the foreman's name. Did she have a reason? Was it plucked from the ether? Did she unconsciously associate the name with the Werner Herzog movie known in the US as Aguirre: The Wrath of God?)

Hiya austen, actually someone brought up this exact same idea on an earlier thread, but after some thought, we decided that Proulx would not use another movie as a symbolic point and instead went with the translation of the name:

name Aguirre from Aguilar - Basque origin from aquilla eagle - meaning Aguirre is literally 'eagle-eyed'

Re: Garden of Eden symbolism (SPOILERS, of course)   
  by Jamessemaj12     (Mon Jan 23 2006 06:26:46 )   

Thank you for that info Delalluvia , that makes much more sense. It's good to know that Symbolism played important a role to LEE as it did PROULX.


"But all in all, it's been a fabulous year for Laura and me." BUSH. after 9/11 attacks, 12/20/2001

[TOoP/Bruce]

Re: Garden of Eden symbolism   
  by jmmgallagher     (Mon Jan 23 2006 06:38:38 )   
   
Just LOVE learning that Aguirre = eagle, and that he is not only dour, but eagle-eyed.

And yes, Brokeback may be chilly, but it is Eden for sure.

Great stuff on this thread--

Re: Garden of Eden symbolism (SPOILERS, of course)   
  by austendw      (Mon Jan 23 2006 06:47:40 )   
   
Aguirre is literally 'eagle-eyed'

Thanks, del. That make's perfect sense. I didn't think my suggestion was terribly plausible.



Re: Garden of Eden symbolism   
  by Ellemeno     (Mon Jan 23 2006 06:50:30 )   
   
henrypie, I got your back, girl! (If a trifle late, but I finally got some sleep after a few days of chronic exhaustion from being on this board.)

Just two points I want to add,

I don't think that what Jack is feeling is shame. I never pick that up from him, the whole movie. I think he's more feeling great worry at how Ennis is taking the whole thing. That seemed like a very hostile, "You're pathetic" look Ennis gives him as he rides away for the day. So this is a very hard day for Jack to endure - What's Ennis going to say when he comes back from tending the sheep? Has everything been ruined, all the sweetness and teasing, has he just lost his friend, should he have not risked? Or is everything going to move forward and deepen, is this the most important day of his life?

The other piece, that I didn't notice anybody say in this particular thread, is that the shirt Jack is whacking is Ennis's. And I like that image - he's doing something extremely intimate and caring for Ennis, but he's also whacking it, not with rage, I don't think, but with confusion, impatience, worry. And of course it's in a river, which has loads of symbolism.

What a huge day for Ennis too, with all he has to work out while he's tending the sheep. How lucky for him that he gets to kill the coyote that gutted the sheep, what a release. That probably helped give him some peace. What's the symbolism there? And why do we see the coyote skin hoisted like a flag? I know that technically it's to serve as warning to other coyotes, but is it to say that Ennis's wild side is the victor today?

Re: Garden of Eden symbolism   
  by henrypie     (Mon Jan 23 2006 06:58:49 )   
   
Ellemeno,
Beautiful, beautiful.

On the coyote hoisted like a flag: I find it chilling because it foresees the "hoisting" of Earl's body. "All you coyotes out there, this is what happens to you when you kill a sheep!" Just as Ennis's dad would have made sure Earl's body said "All you sissyboys out there, this is what happens to you when you love a man!" Note that killing a sheep and loving a man are both the natural destinies of these creatures and to stop them is to impose a law enforceable only by violence. Also note that Ennis is the enforcer in one realm, and the (would-be) punished in another.

Re: Garden of Eden symbolism (SPOILERS, of course)   
  by delalluvia     (Mon Jan 23 2006 11:53:57 )   
   
UPDATED Mon Jan 23 2006 11:54:28
Thanks, del. That make's perfect sense. I didn't think my suggestion was terribly plausible.

No prob austen, the wrath of god idea is kick@ss, but Proulx was more into the symbolism of names (Twist, Ennis Del Mar, Signal, etc) so it just stood to reason Aguirre would just be one more.

Re: Garden of Eden symbolism   
  by Ellemeno     (Tue Jan 24 2006 05:12:56 )   
   
>> Note that killing a sheep and loving a man are both the natural destinies of these creatures and to stop them is to impose a law enforceable only by violence. Also note that Ennis is the enforcer in one realm, and the (would-be) punished in another.

Whew. You know, about two minutes ago I was practically peeing myself because I was reading that hilarious "Lines we won't hear" thread, and now I'm whomped by the ludicrous tragedy that your sentence above invokes.

"It's nobody's business but ours - and our IMDb friends'."

Re: Garden of Eden symbolism   
  by poorlittleteacher     (Tue Jan 24 2006 05:21:25 )   
   
<<The other piece, that I didn't notice anybody say in this particular thread, is that the shirt Jack is whacking is Ennis's. And I like that image - he's doing something extremely intimate and caring for Ennis, but he's also whacking it, not with rage, I don't think, but with confusion, impatience, worry. And of course it's in a river, which has loads of symbolism. >>

Thank you for pointing that out! I'd not noticed that. How beautiful...every scene in the movie really does have a purpose..

Re: Garden of Eden symbolism   
  by meryl_88     (Tue Jan 24 2006 09:33:44 )   
   
Ellemeno,

I find myself agreeing with you that Jack is less affected by shame in this scene than by anxiety over what Ennis is feeling. The filmmakers provide a supremely simple visual description of his emotional state: vulnerable, ill at ease, preoccupied in thinking of his friend/lover (the washing of Ennis' shirt). It is interesting that immediately after this we are shown Jack and Ennis together on the mountain. Clearly Jack has ridden up to see Ennis to sort things out rather than waiting for him to come down for supper as would have been their usual routine.

austendw, your discussion of the Garden of Eden references is terrific, especially the comparison of Aguirre to the God figure. Thanks!

Re: Garden of Eden symbolism   
  by headrosie     (Tue Jan 24 2006 09:42:27 )   

Another wonderful thread, thanks for helping me get even more out of this incredible film.

Re: Garden of Eden symbolism   
  by delalluvia     (Tue Jan 24 2006 11:39:28 )   
   
Inerestingly meryl, we did notice this in a thread long long long time back that

Jack has ridden up to see Ennis to sort things out rather than waiting for him to come down for supper as would have been their usual routine.

But notice, Jack didn't confront Ennis about it. He just saddled up, rode out to where Ennis was with the sheep and then sat down to wait for Ennis to come to him.

Team Jolie

Re: Garden of Eden symbolism   
  by Petronius Arbiter II     (Tue Jan 24 2006 12:04:28 )   
   
UPDATED Tue Jan 24 2006 12:07:09
If you choose to invoke the movie "Aguirre, the Wrath of God" as having any kind of allegorical intent, as opposed to the less intensive symbolism of "eagle-eyed," then you should be aware that in that movie, Aguirre is anything but godly. "Demonic," "power-mad," "bloodthirsty and cowardly," are all more appropriate adjectives for that character. "Stark raving insane" is how Aguirre becomes by the end of Herzog's very well-crafted film (and "godly" is only how Herzog's Aguirre sees himself,) or you could just settle for "imperialistic."

Herzog's Aguirre is the collective madness of imperialism, the end result of looking at our lives as a sort of "Survivor Island" game in which there can be only one winner, and winning "isn't the most important thing, it's the only thing."

There is, as I see it, some sort of more than superficial, less than truly deep resemblance between Herzog's Aguirre and the Aguirre of "Brokeback Mountain." Joe Aguirre is deliberately violating grazing law, and many an environmentalist will tell you that sheep are far worse in its impact on the environment than cattle. He's a petty criminal, after all, and a sort of imperialistic invader of the common turf, contributing to the ruin of the "garden," for his neighbors and his own descendants.

The Biblical reference that comes to mind for me? Fill in the blank: "The love of ________ is the root of all evil." Hint: it ain't sex, though Freud maintained in "Civilization and Its Discontents," speaking of Marxism's take on the matter, that maybe we should throw some sex in there too.

"I don't deduce, I observe."

Re: Garden of Eden symbolism   
  by meryl_88     (Tue Jan 24 2006 13:06:14 )   

delalluvia, thanks for your reply.

"But notice, Jack didn't confront Ennis about it. He just saddled up, rode out to where Ennis was with the sheep and then sat down to wait for Ennis to come to him. "

This is interesting in itself, because isn't it the first of many examples we have in their relationship of Jack's reluctance to confront Ennis and thus scare him off? It reminds me of the earlier scene where Ennis warned Jack to be careful of the mare because "she has a low startle point." So does Ennis, and Jack instinctively knows this and proceeds accordingly. (In the first tent scene, in fact, Ennis reminds one of nothing so much as a startled horse, whom Jack then proceeds to calm down with soft words.)

This pattern holds true for the entire span of their relationship until Jack finally has reached the point in their last meeting where he can hold off no longer. Time is running out, and he speaks his mind to the point where he actually suggests leaving Ennis. And here Ang Lee inserts that wonderful image of the young Jack and Ennis in the embrace by the campfire--the happiness of which Jack knows not to disturb by turning in Ennis's arms to face him fully. Now in the present, Jack has at last "turned to face him fully" and realized that, as he has always feared, it has probably only made Ennis retreat further. The expression on his face as Ennis drives away says everything about Jack's tragedy.

Sorry, henrypie, that really wasn't a discussion for this thread, but I can't get enough of analyzing these wonderful characters and how Ang Lee illuminates them.

Re: Garden of Eden symbolism   
  by henrypie     (Tue Jan 24 2006 13:12:49 )   
   
Gracious, meryl 88, no apology necessary. Your comments are great. The low-startle-point animal point is so apt, and reminds me once again of how Jack is so at home in the world of animals (they both are). On their way up the mountain the story has him carrying a puppy in his jacket (the cuteness of which would probably spoil the whole movie, hence the omission), "for he loved a little dog." I have a friend whose boyfriend is very shy, and she described getting to know him as "moving the food bowl closer and closer" until he was really comfortable with her. A nice reminder that we're all animals, some more scared than others.

Re: Garden of Eden symbolism   
  by Ellemeno     (Tue Jan 24 2006 15:12:57 )   

For I so love a little dog and a fictional man with a low startle point that I give this one of my many begotten bumps.

"It's nobody's business but ours - and our IMDb friends'."

Re: Garden of Eden symbolism   
  by delalluvia     (Tue Jan 24 2006 17:04:27 )   
   
meryl88

"But notice, Jack didn't confront Ennis about it. He just saddled up, rode out to where Ennis was with the sheep and then sat down to wait for Ennis to come to him. "

This is interesting in itself, because isn't it the first of many examples we have in their relationship of Jack's reluctance to confront Ennis and thus scare him off?

Exactly my point.

It reminds me of the earlier scene where Ennis warned Jack to be careful of the mare because "she has a low startle point." So does Ennis, and Jack instinctively knows this and proceeds accordingly.

Well actually, since Jack is experienced riding bulls, I imagine he already knew this once he got on the horse.

(In the first tent scene, in fact, Ennis reminds one of nothing so much as a startled horse, whom Jack then proceeds to calm down with soft words.)

This EXACT description was brought up on a thread months ago. Yes, Ennis is a primitive man, unsure of his feelings and inexperienced (green) and Jack is the man who's there to tame him - he talks soft, offers assurances (it's alright, shhh) and comfort (c'mere), always trying to keep him from stressful situations (never telling Ennis that Aguirre knew about them or the truth about his other relationships) because he never knew when Ennis might suddenly erupt into violence or run off.


Team Jolie

Re: Garden of Eden symbolism   
  by meryl_88     (Tue Jan 24 2006 18:11:27 )   
   
delalluvia:

Yes, Ennis is a primitive man, unsure of his feelings and inexperienced (green) and Jack is the man who's there to tame him - he talks soft, offers assurances (it's alright, shhh) and comfort (c'mere), always trying to keep him from stressful situations (never telling Ennis that Aguirre knew about them or the truth about his other relationships) because he never knew when Ennis might suddenly erupt into violence or run off.

I love that Jack is attracted to Ennis because he senses the wild part of him. This is what makes their chemistry so compelling. Jack the dreamer doesn't want to settle for a quiet life. He wants to ride bulls and live large. He may not always be lucky at it, but just as he consciously chooses the skittish mare, he chooses Ennis as his lover--like a moth to a flame.

[TOoP/Bruce]

Re: Garden of Eden symbolism   
  by henrypie     (Tue Jan 24 2006 19:09:03 )   
   
UPDATED Tue Jan 24 2006 19:09:50

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That's a half a heart of Jacks for you, Ellemeno. (gets squished. like hearts in real life.)

Re: whacking the shirt   
  by Flickfan-3     (Tue Jan 24 2006 19:22:51 )   

think the emphasis on the "symbolism of whacking the shirt" is a little overdone--yes it is Ennis's shirt Jack is washing--the same one he will steal away at the end of the summer and he is now the camp "tender" /the caregiver his nature really lends itself to, and this comes after important scene w/Ennis
but if you rethink the scene logically--and if you have ever camped out--, I think he is whacking the shirt naked because

A)if he kept his clothes on they would just get wet from the splashing of the water and he would wind up with wet clothes so he may have taken them off and left them away from the water and will dress after he is done

B)the water in the stream is probably just short of ice cold and he is trying to keep his hands from freezing by not immersing them in the water with the shirt any more than he has to

C)there is no wash board as Alma used in her scene nor soap from what I can tell and soap does not lather all that well in running, freezing water, so without touching the icy water and the icy shirt and to break the sweat and grime in the shirt, he uses the stick to beat the dirt out of the fabric--believe me if you have tried washing dirty clothes in cold water w/o soap it is no easy thing
and finally

D) in material I have read--fiction and non --and movies I have seen that have included scenes like this one--such as in Dances with Wolves (although the women weren't naked) --it is often very common for people to use implements like sticks or rocks even, to force water through the material and try to keep the skin of the hands from being abraded any more than necessary. I have seen women in the mountains of Mexico using sticks to hit their clothes when they wash in streams running beside the roads, so I don't think Ang Lee staged this scene in this manner SIMPLY as a symbolic venue--Can we see underlying meaning--sure because that is the magic of his vision--it is always multi-textural--but let's don't beat this topic to death.

Re: Garden of Eden symbolism   
  by Flickfan-3     (Tue Jan 24 2006 19:40:06 )   
   
Henrypie--think your first example is one of many that can be evidence of the Garden of Eden imagery--but seems like it stalls and does not persue other scens
I was struck especially by the contrast between the shots out in the mountains where they have the fullest expression of joy and pleasure in their physical relationship--until the last contretemps--and the unhappy, forced relationships that are full of shadows and dark corners in their city lives.
The light that fills the outside shots contains a purity not found in any interior location until Ennis gets to Jack's family home and Mrs. Twist's eyes have a luminous quality that lights Ennis's soul as well as ours.
I think that contrast between natural world and man-made one reflects the idea of Eden as a world untainted by society's evils, offering a heaven-on-earth sanctuary that all souls long for. Outside they are free and unfettered, can be the boys they were never allowed to be during their own childhoods.

There are no pretty scenes in town, no interior space that offers the warmth and purity that they find in the mountains-- even the snow/cold is pure and untainted by worldly things like car tracks and city grime as the Thanksgiving scene when Ennis fights the truck driver. I know that heat/cold are strong symbols of their emotional needs, i.e. Jack is always mentioning he is cold and Ennis was freezing when the snow fell on the mountain -- but think the concept of natural world is best world holds true for the most part.

Re: Garden of Eden symbolism   
  by Ellemeno     (Wed Jan 25 2006 01:18:14 )   
   


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That's a half a heart of Jacks for you, Ellemeno. (gets squished. like hearts in real life.)


I'm so glad I didn't miss this. And I'm sad because Jack and Ennis never got Valentines from each other. Thanks, henrypie. Is this for so loving a little dog?

"It's nobody's business but ours - and our IMDb friends'."

Re: Garden of Eden symbolism   
  by henrypie     (Wed Jan 25 2006 09:47:41 )   
   
Ellemeno,
it was to you for 'getting' me.

Re: Garden of Eden symbolism   
  by henrypie     (Wed Jan 25 2006 09:51:20 )   
   
All good points!
The more overt G of E references (as I see them) are few, but the mountain/nature itself theme extends right through. Perhaps a nice time to remember that Heath is named for Heathcliff from Wuthering Heights (Wuthering Brontes as my dad affectionately calls it), one of the great nature vs. civilization novels in English. Mmmm. Rugged, untameable Heathcliff!

missing the point   
  by bhgardner     (Wed Jan 25 2006 10:03:06 )   
   
The question isn't why they wash their clothes, but why the clothes-washing is in the movie. They do lots of things we don't see-most of their weeks on the mountain, in fact. Out of everything Jack did that day, why did Lee choose this one thing to show?

Partly, because it gives an opportunity to show Gyllenhaal naked; but this could be done other ways.

Re: Garden of Eden symbolism   
  by easybake4you     (Wed Jan 25 2006 10:45:38 )   
   
I do agree with the biblical references henrypie but I tend to see Brokeback Mountain as Heaven rather than Eden. I posted this response earlier in a wonderful thread started by CaseyCornelius about the Classical Literature References in BBM. If you haven’t looked at this thread, I think you would find it helpful!

My earlier post: Has anyone noticed the biblical references? I saw Brokeback Mountain as Heaven that Jack and Ennis were finally cast out of because of Ennis’ sin. Hell would be the worlds that the two created without each other. Jack could also represent a Christ figure in that his death cleanses Ennis of his sins and lets him break free. Ennis then turns around and chooses a life of solitude and devotion to him like a priest. He even constructs a shrine to Jack to remember him. The slaughtered sheep Ennis found after their night together could represent a sacrifice for Ennis’ sins or foreshadowing of Jack’s death/sacrifice. Looking to religion could also help in explaining Jack’s father when he says he knows what Brokeback Mountain is. I saw that remark as having a double meaning. He knows what it is in a figurative sense but not literally. He has never been to “Heaven” but he knows what it is. I also see Ennis’ trailer at the end as a purgatory to wait for the next life with Jack.

There are many allusions that could be attributed to the Bible and your references have illuminated one that I had missed. Thank you. I intend to look for more and other references to literature, mythology, etc. when I see this movie again this weekend.

I would also be interested to see if anyone else has found anything relevant to this later in the movie!

Re: Garden of Eden symbolism   
  by centerforants321     (Wed Jan 25 2006 11:42:53 )   
   
I could see how this works...
Jack and Ennis could symbolize the loving couple in a beautiful place. God could resemble their society...punishing them for their "sin," though they could not stop their love for eachother, as Eve could not stop her curiosity. Their punishement would be the pain they have to endure while they keep their feelings bundled up inside. The snake that led Eve to the fruit could be symbolized as the cold weather that lead Ennis to the tent. But I don't really know the story of Adam and Eve perfectly so sorry if some information is inacurate...

I also saw some forshadowing/symbolism when the coyote ate the sheep. It was as if the sheep was jack and the coyote were the bashers. There was no significant difference from the dead sheep and all the others, but the coyote decided to kill that one sheep. THere was no real significant difference between Jack and all other people, but the bashers decided to pick him. (even if its just in ennis's mind) Ennis felt it was his fault the sheep died, because he was not with it to fight off the coyote, as Ennis probably felt it was his fault that he didnt get a ranch with Jack. Ennis thinks he should have been their to help Jack, and thinks the bashers came because Ennis wasnt there to protect him. THis is probbly why he imagines the bashers, he feels it's his fault. The cattle dog could be Jacks wife... sitting helplessly by the dead sheep. Just some thoughts..

Re: Garden of Eden symbolism   
  by centerforants321     (Wed Jan 25 2006 11:45:02 )   
   
Ps. when I say "sin' I mean in the eyes of the society. They felt they needed to punish Jack for doing, what they thought, was a 'sin'

[TOoP/Bruce]

Re: Garden of Eden symbolism   
  by Flickfan-3     (Wed Jan 25 2006 17:57:53 )   
   
Centerforants--sorry but have to disagree with your comment "THere was no real significant difference between Jack and all other people, but the bashers decided to pick him" when you compare Jack's death to the sheep's.
Maybe I saw a different movie but thought BBM is about how Jack and Ennis are different from society--of course, the bashers picked Jack because he was gay/homosexual/different. Certainly he coyote didn't pick the sheep because he was gay but probably because he/she was maybe away from the flock, was isolated -- that aloneness also made Jack vulnerable.

Re: Garden of Eden symbolism   
  by vanessa4     (Thu Jan 26 2006 10:00:27 )   

Jack and Ennis could symbolize the loving couple in a beautiful place. God could resemble their society...punishing them for their "sin," though they could not stop their love for eachother.

I would rather think that Jack's mother represented God. An unforgiving "society" killed her only beloved son. She shows her unconditional love to Ennis in the way that she treats him and looks at him. That loving invitation to become her son also is his if he chooses to accept it.

Re: Garden of Eden symbolism   
  by Flickfan-3     (Thu Jan 26 2006 10:04:03 )   

Nice to know that someone else thinks God might be a woman--could explain her strength and the luminous presence she brings to those few scenes.

Re: Garden of Eden symbolism   
  by XxXSongbirdXxX     (Fri Feb 17 2006 08:31:12 )   
   
"Um, if you're looking for symbolism of that scene, perhaps this POV will help - but it's not biblical.

Ennis is looking at the disemboweled sheep - what's left? A sheep-skin, the wool of a sheep.

As in 'pulling the wool over one's eyes' or 'wolf in sheep's clothing' the sheepskin has come off to reveal someone who isn't what he seems -

cut to Jack, naked and exposed.

How's that?"

Wow, that's very good! Very deep, I could never have that of that! Nice .

I need you now - You've knocked me off my feet-Oasis
Jack and Ennis

Re: Garden of Eden symbolism   
  by starboardlight     (Fri Feb 17 2006 09:44:50 )   
   
Nice to know that someone else thinks God might be a woman--could explain her strength and the luminous presence she brings to those few scenes.


and that unearthly, ethereal light in her kitchen. i can go with that.

Re: Garden of Eden symbolism   
  by Flickfan-3     (Fri Feb 17 2006 14:48:42 )   
   
apparently they shot that on location with natural light--don't know how he did it but think that scene alone qualifies as great enough for the Oscar win--but realistically, I saw most of the nominees for Best Photography and there are other great shots in each one---Prieto's work throughout the film makes terrific use of available light and night shots which would seem to me to qualify as requiring more artistry and skill---but I don't know nothin' about birthin' no films, Miz Scarlett....

"...That's the beauty of argument, Joey. If you argue correctly, you're never wrong..."


Re: Prieto's Example of Hammershoi -- Visual Influence   
  by austendw      (Sat Feb 18 2006 01:19:03 )   

And here's the Dreyer pic (for 'twas I who mentioned him)

http://www.princeton.edu/~csrelig/cinema/

and this:

http://www.theambler.com/images/ordet.jpg


Re: Garden of Eden symbolism   
  by rsd9     (Sat Feb 18 2006 01:36:04 )   

In the garden of Eden, honey,
don't you know that I lo-ove yo-ou?
In the garden of Eden, baby,
don't you know that I'll always be tru-ue?

Re: Garden of Eden symbolism   
  by terryhall2     (Sat Feb 18 2006 02:25:14 )   

What shame?? There is none whatsoever on Jack's part..he's shivering 'cos he's cold!

Re: Garden of Eden symbolism   
  by naun     (Sat Feb 18 2006 03:25:47 )   
   
UPDATED Sat Feb 18 2006 03:29:22
I would rather think that Jack's mother represented God.

I mentioned in another thread that she is often shot with a cross prominently visible in the background. When Ennis is seated you see a cowboy hat in the background directly over his head. In this context it looks almost like a halo.

I hadn't caught this thread until now. Some great posts here, especially that one from austendw.

Re: Garden of Eden symbolism   
  by naun     (Sat Feb 18 2006 04:09:37 )   
   
[Re Aguirre] Fill in the blank: "The love of ________ is the root of all evil."

I love the way Proulx gets Aguirre's personality across in his speech patterns (superbly done in the movie by Randy Quaid). Here's somebody who seemingly only ever speaks in the imperative, who does not seem to have any capacity for give and take except of the money kind. He does not ask the boys their names; in Proulx' original he almost completely avoids even using the pronoun "you".

Re: Prieto's Example of Hammershoi -- Visual Influence   
  by austendw      (Sat Feb 18 2006 13:57:20 )   
   
Casey, it was on the Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' thread, here:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0388795/board/inline/32434607?d=34621775#34621775

And don't worry about the credits!


Re: Garden of Eden symbolism   
  by starboardlight     (Sat Feb 18 2006 15:36:24 )   
   
I mentioned in another thread that she is often shot with a cross prominently visible in the background. When Ennis is seated you see a cowboy hat in the background directly over his head. In this context it looks almost like a halo.

I hadn't caught this thread until now. Some great posts here, especially that one from austendw.


and that absolutely amazing shot for over Ennis's head with her hand reaching down to touch his shoulder, God's Eye point of view, shall we say. I love that.

Re: Garden of Eden symbolism   
  by boom_e85     (Sat Feb 18 2006 15:47:06 )   
   
Call it what you will, but did anyone else notice Ennis and Jack's conversation about their religions, and then Jack said how they'd both go to hell but Ennis said, "Speak for yourself. I ain't had the chance to sin yet." (or something like that). And then in the next scene they have gay sex. I thought it was ironic-funny. I love me my Brokeback Mountain.

Re: Lightning Flat -- Prieto on the Kitchen Scene   
  by starboardlight     (Sat Feb 18 2006 15:51:03 )   

UPDATED Sat Feb 18 2006 15:54:08
CaseyCornelius wrote:
don't know about you all, but this is, hands down, my favorite scene in the film. Absolutely brilliant.


It's hard for me to say which is my favorite scene, but I do absolutely love this scene. Visually it's a beautiful scene, but beyond that, the emotions and the characters are so amazingly drawn. It is definitely the scene that kicked my emotional butt.

I don't want to dive too deep into Christian theology, not being a Christian myself, but as far as Christian mythology and literature is concerned, it merits some consideration. It's strange to think about Mrs. Twist as God. Does that make this kitchen heaven? The light quality is just gorgeous. (And thank you for posting those images that serve as Prieto's inspirations.) However, in your classical reference thread we've also discussed comparing that kitchen to Aeneas' descent into hell. In other threads, people have called John Twist, the devil. The idea that God and the devil are married and grappling with one another for Jack's souls. The devil ends up with Jack's corporeal remains, but God freed his spirit by teaching him how to love. The idea that heaven and hell is the same place is also fascinating. Ennis would have to be in this kitchen one way or another. If he had accepted Jack's vision of a life, this would have been part of their heaven? But because he was unable to accept Jack, this place is at that moment the hell he must suffer.

Re: Garden of Eden symbolism   
  by scarlet_poppie     (Mon Mar 20 2006 19:09:45 )   
   
there's a price to pay for homosexuality [in the minds of backward ignorant people, but this movie deals with those people who populated most of the earth unfortunately back then] the 2 men who were gay and lived on a ranch on their own? one of them gets killed, sacrificed, martyred, for standing for what he believes, but what the society won't accept.
when ellis sees the slain sheep, it's again like a sacrifice. and the fact that it takes place when he was being irresponsible, and not being careful [by staying down with jack instead of spending the night with the sheep] shows him what could, and probably will happen if they let this thing run wild. it also will give way to the story we hear later on about the 2 men, which is basically the whole reason why ellis won't give it all up to be with jack.
the sheep has little to do with jack naked cleaning his clothes.
i always chuckle at that scene because he looks so caveman, beating his clothes with a stick. i wonder what the book says.


it's a dirty world Reich, say what you want

Re: Garden of Eden symbolism   
  by taj_e     (Tue Mar 21 2006 08:12:34 )   
   
UPDATED Thu Mar 23 2006 06:32:25
henrypie
This is indeed a good thread
Thanks to the many posts that try to stick to the subject
I'm a bit concern of how Christianity teachings are included in here, however I must agree that it has to a certain point 'applicable'
Perhaps we need to draw all the 'characters' involved, the scene, the events etc

Location: Garden of Eden=Brokeback Mountain
God: Aguirre
Adam and Eve: Ennis and Jack
Sin: Homosexuality

It was Aguirre that hired both Ennis and Jack. He placed them up on the mountain and clearly told them that they can do everything (camp and sheep tendering) except 'sleeping/staying' together
Aguirre might have been clear about his 'command', however Jack/Eve seemed not to understand them at all (all the rules etc)

Assuming they both were not aware of such 'sin' (staying together/homosexuality), and upon committing them, they both knew what they had committed

Aguirre knew this and throw them out of Eden (cut short their stay)
The dead sheep was a clear message to Ennis/Adam. Casey mentioned about the coyote. Ennis perhaps was trying to remind himself that it will not be easy for both of them
However, we are reminded that grace is needed for redemption. Someone need to die. Jack perhaps knew this better than Ennis
(ALL the above is not in order btw, and the fact that Jack/Eve died. This is how it is obviously in contrast with the biblical teaching)
(ADDITION: From another thread discussing on Jack's death, it was mentioned on one of Lee's interview that he was initially filmed the 'second death scene' way back from the dead sheep)

This might sound crazy, come to think about it, perhaps Ennis represent both Adam and Eve. While Jack represent both Satan and later 'Jesus'
That the dead sheep, coyote, Eden was meant for Ennis all the while

Having said the above, I must stress again that BBM does has some biblical symbolism there, but doesn't really follow the flow of the 'story'.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0388795/board/thread/38161424?d=38161424#38161424

Need help...   
  by taj_e     (Tue Mar 21 2006 08:16:59 )   
   
... anyone has any clue how BBM got the tagline 'Love is a force of Nature'?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0388795/board/thread/38161424?d=38161424#38161424

[TOoP/Bruce]

Re: Garden of Eden symbolism   
  by terryhall2     (Tue Mar 21 2006 08:52:50 )   

I see no sin here but a young man, naked as God intended, in all his glory cleaning the shirt of his lover in pure water, in God's natural surroundings . How natural is that? I'm sick of these biblical references. God is life, nature, there is no sin as Christians would call it.

Re: Garden of Eden symbolism   
  by taj_e     (Tue Mar 21 2006 09:04:11 )   
   
terryhall2
I have yet to see any Christian complains about the OP topic

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0388795/board/thread/38161424?d=38161424#38161424

Re: Garden of Eden symbolism   
  by naun     (Tue Mar 21 2006 18:56:24 )   
   
A few more, very speculative, observations on biblical symbolism -- even though, as a non-Christian, I feel at something of a disadvantage offering them. An observant poster noticed a while back that there is an anchor-shaped lamp in Jack's bedroom. The anchor is, of course, a nautical object: "del Mar". But lately, thinking about the biblical symbolism occasionally discussed on this board, it has occurred to me that the form of an anchor is often associated with a cross. If you google for "anchor crucifix" you'll see some examples of what I mean. It may be that the anchor in Jack's bedroom is a kind of counterpart to the cross downstairs. I'm also reminded of a friend's response when I mentioned the sloping ceiling of Jack's bedroom. To me it recalled a tent. She suggested it was also like the roof of a church. Later, reading a post expressing a Christian perspective on the movie, it hit me that the shirts themselves may have religious significance, because the bloodstains on the wrists so strongly evoke the Crucifixion.

Re: Garden of Eden symbolism   
  by santsa70     (Mon Mar 27 2006 11:02:49 )   
   
Well, I have to say I didn't look into it as deeply as you have, but I do think that Brokeback Mountain is, in its own right, a Garden of Eden. A place where love can bloom without the interruption of fellow man. I think all lovers should have their own Brokeback Mountain--its such a beautifully romantic idea.

And also, ignore the people who tell you you're wrong for believeing theres biblical references in their. Those people are either christian/jewish-phobic, blind to subtext, or just plain mean. You are a thinker, don't let anyone ever get you down about that.

Re: Garden of Eden symbolism   
  by taj_e     (Tue Mar 28 2006 08:17:51 )   
   
naun
Perhaps it is not surprising at all understanding Jack's background
And the fact that he died, it's like the only thing he can think of
'Jack's blood cleansed Ennis, washed him free'

Ennis was free from sin/guilt. Ennis have seen love/grace (perhaps real love/grace). He has been 'born again'. Free to love and be loved again
Source of strength, no more NO to love. Not from Alma Jr's invitation...

I'm not sure why he stop at Ennis, when he first introduced himself to Jack. I thought it was very uncommon then not to give your full name (rude even?). And we see he learnt the lesson when he gave his full name to Cassie

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0388795/board/thread/38161424?d=38161424#38161424

Re: Garden of Eden symbolism   
  by pkdetroit     (Fri Mar 31 2006 07:32:30 )   
   
Hiya Austen! Greetings Del!

All the great stories were written generations and generations ago. There really is nothing new, only variations on a theme. Oh but what a variation BBM is!
For those of you uncomfortably with any christian allegory/symbolism in this movie, think on this; all these myths-stories were around long before christianity. Even before judaism. Many beliefs pre-date judeo-christianity and used the same myths to explain the world, society and the rules of life.
It should be no surprise that sheep, being one of the first animals to be domesticated, are featured in many myths especially in the literature of semi-nomadic desert dwelling peoples for whom cattle raising would not be as viable an option. Sheep and goats would have a high value as producers of meat, milk and fiber, that importance is reflected in myths.

Even though I am a non-christian, I too was struck by certain scenes of the movie as having a distinctly "biblical" feel to them. One in particular was the scene when Ennis' father takes his sons to see Earl's body. I was reminded of both the Abraham-Isaac-Ishmael story and Jehovah-Adam-Eve story. The stark dry rock of the hot gully, the towering angry father figure, images that are seared in our memories just as they were in Ennis'.

"It was the Summer that Sebastian and I went to the Incantadas"

Re: Garden of Eden symbolism   
  by paintedponyxox      (Fri Mar 31 2006 13:08:27 )   
   
I used to think this scene was greatly misunderstood, because almost everyone who sees it thinks that they are being punished for their carelessness and for being sinners. When I saw it with my friend, at the part when we see the dead sheep he turned to me and kind of laughingly said, "Every time you have gay sex, God kills a sheep." But I think Ang Lee did actually mean for us to think of it that way, because that is exactly what Ennis is thinking about. He sees the dead sheep and immediately sees a negative consequence to his and Jack's actions. Ennis is completely paranoid about this kind of thing; he thinks that if he and Jack do this, they WILL be punished, because that is what he learned when his father showed him that man who had been killed. He doesn't even pursue any more "activity" with Jack until after he gives him some kind of assurance that this is a secret that will never leave this mountain and is nobody else's business.
I think it also just a bad omen of things that are going to come as a result of what has just started - the dead sheep definitely represents dead Jack. Ang even said he originally was going to use this footage again at the end of the movie, cutting from the image of Jack laying dead to the sheep laying dead to show the parallel. So cutting right from that to Jack naked and vulnerable as he's washing his clothes makes perfect sense.
Of course, the whole Garden of Eden symbolism is definitely there as well. So that's at least three layers to this part of the movie that can be found.

Re: Garden of Eden symbolism   
  by MtBecky      (Fri Mar 31 2006 13:15:24 )   
   
Wouldn't you like to just have a quiet afternoon with Ang Lee and ask him about all the symbolisms and what they really mean?? I have always wondered about Jack washing his clothes naked and what that meant. I mean with a movie that is full of symbolisms, it has to mean something and the couple of different points of view here, both seem to make sense to me...so I wonder what the real meaning is. I hope Ang Lee comes forth and enlightens us one day.

Re: Garden of Eden symbolism   
  by gtaylor0     (Sun Apr 16 2006 06:05:42 )   
   
Actually, I think he's beating Ennis' clothes - his white shirt, the one Jack steals as a momento. I don't know what it symbolizes, exactly; that's for better metaphorical minds than mine.

Re: Garden of Eden symbolism   
  by vaporize     (Wed Apr 26 2006 22:12:21 )   
   
About the dead sheep. Did anyone bring up the fact that the sheep is symbolic of Alma? The sheep is blood stained on its white coat. In the scene where Alma sees Ennis and Jack kissing, she is wearing a red dress and a white coat. The dead sheep was shown after the first tent scene I believe, and Alma was shown after they were kissing. Did anyone else see this correlation?

"Overrated" is so overrated.

Re: Garden of Eden symbolism   
  by weaselprince71     (Wed Apr 26 2006 22:46:33 )   
   
UPDATED Thu Apr 27 2006 12:20:45
I got the same impression (re: Eden in general, and the cut from the dead sheep to naked Jack in particular), I'd just never articulated it as cleanly and precisely as henrypie.

But I was a bit perplexed, on first viewing, by the seeming coyness of Jake's pose by the stream: it seemed very tight and self-conscious for someone who's out in the wilderness with no reason to suppose anyone could be watching; but the impression seemed too strong not to have been deliberate on Gyllenhaal and/or Lee's part. I figured Jack's glum, vaguely anxious demeanor was due to some lingering doubt about what'd they'd done, and about Ennis's gruff non-reaction the morning after. But after reading the OP, the rightness of the pose is that much clearer to me.

I'd be astounded if any of the "Eden" stuff wasn't intentional on the part of Lee and the screenwriters. The juxtaposition of the first tent scene with the dead sheep is just too pointed not to have been meant quasi-allegorically (but in a complicated and subtly disturbing way) by the moviemakers. (It appears nowhere in the Proulx story). Jack's "shivering naked laundry day" by the stream only completes the metaphor.

There's a lot of subtle stuff in the movie, and while I'd be the first to say that some folks on these boards have carried the analysis a bit far (the whole "numerological" thread strikes me personally as pretty silly) this particular bit of symbolism is too obvious to be coincidental: Joe Q. Public at the cineplex certainly isn't under any obligation to "get it," but no serious student of film technique could miss it.

Re: Garden of Eden symbolism   
  by Santinos_Bridesmade     (Sun Jul 9 2006 06:33:14 )   
   
I always thought of Brokeback as their Garden of Eden.

"We celebrate Labor Day by not going to work?"

Re: Garden of Eden symbolism   
  by retropian     (Thu Aug 10 2006 17:13:52 )   

It occurred to me that Aguirre (eagle eyed) represents God of the old testament here. It is he that places Jack and Ennis in Eden. It is he who designates their roles. It is Aguirre who spies on them from afar, just as God spies on Adam and Eve. Like God, he discovers their "sin" or "transgression". They have eaten from the Tree of Knowledge (Jacks nakedness). He casts them out.

The next year when Jack returns Aguirre acts as the Cherub that bars the
way back to Eden. He represents the exclusionary principle/actions of a bigoted society. Jack and Ennis are now in a wilderness of the soul and the way back to Eden is seemingly blocked.

I appreciate your kind comments.

I too have wondered about the meaning of the "Uncle in the Hospital" scene and what it might mean. I like your idea that it points to Jacks "inability to influence the outcome of life or death", just has he is unable to influence Ennis to take up the "sweet life". It reiterates or forshadows "if you can't fix it, you gotta stand it".

Re: Aguirre - 'Cursed is the ground ----'   
  by skessa     (Thu Oct 5 2006 05:39:24 )   
   
never enough time to read. bump.

i'm a non-native speaker. if you find my language awkward – send me a private message!


Re: Garden of Eden symbolism   
  by Dancing_Bear     5 days ago (Wed Dec 6 2006 07:36:49 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
I think the scene of Jack washing Ennis's shirt not only shows another aspect of his continual efforts to nurture Ennis but also a sly hint that Ennis's shirt is frequently in his hands and can easily be secreted later when he wants to take it. But I thought this was a very interesting thread. Question: In terms of Christian interpretation, is Satan all-seeing too? Or is only God all-seeing?