What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'-- by plato21

[TOoP/Bruce]

What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by plato21     (Mon Jan 23 2006 18:04:44 )   
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What did Ennis mean when he says to Jack: "All them things I don't know (about your trips to Mexico) could get you killed if I should come to know them."
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by xsparkle_motionx     (Mon Jan 23 2006 18:06:13 )   
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He was jealous and threatening Jack.

I'm gonna pitch a pup tent on the QT with Jake G.
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by strawbs04     (Thu Apr 13 2006 11:55:07 )   
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He was saying that Jack better not tell him anything about being with another man because he would kill him....
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by girdie     (Mon Jan 23 2006 18:06:24 )   
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UPDATED Mon Jan 23 2006 18:08:34
He jealous, and he's basically telling him to watch himself or else. By "else" he doesn't mean he is going to kill him! LOL!! Some people actually take that literally! LOL!!
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by delalluvia     (Mon Jan 23 2006 18:06:32 )   
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What did Ennis mean when he says to Jack: "All them things I don't know (about your trips to Mexico) could get you killed if I should come to know them."

Means Ennis will kill Jack in a jealous rage if he finds out that Jack's been 'unfaithful'.
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by girdie     (Mon Jan 23 2006 18:09:38 )   
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He wouldn't kill him! LOL!!
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by aj-208     (Fri Jan 27 2006 09:52:26 )   
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After this outburst Ennis realizes he is devoid of that jealousy and rage when the woman in his life finds another man. (diner scene)

...

Then theres Juniors wedding announcement...he's still emotionally removed, catches himself, then conceeds in a loving gesture.


We end on a hopeful, self accepting and loving note.
===============================

Ok I have to go cry again.


Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by zigzo_pazoru     (Tue Feb 21 2006 19:16:13 )   
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After this outburst Ennis realizes he is devoid of that jealousy and rage when the woman in his life finds another man.

I love you.

I love people who show me obvious points that I don't catch onto, even after 5 times seeing the film.

*cries with you* A jealous Ennis is a scary Ennis. I'd hate to be the Mexican prostitute (or Randall) in bed with Jack when Ennis walks in the door. Yikes.


~~~~~~~~
I'll quote whatever I feel like quoting, GOSH!!
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by aj-208     (Tue Feb 21 2006 20:12:07 )   
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UPDATED Tue Feb 21 2006 20:20:13
Oh you're sweet. Thank you. After 8x viewing I'm still discovering more.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0388795/board/thread/36659293d=36694296?d=36694296#36694296
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by zigzo_pazoru     (Tue Feb 21 2006 21:06:50 )   
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Another good thread-link. Thanks So *not* getting Jack helped Ennis in a way, albeit tragic. The fact that he makes an excuse not to go to Alma Jr's wedding (which, excuses are purely a 20-year habit by now) and then almost immediately retracts that excuse made me very happy & confident in his ability to learn from his mistakes and to get through his pain. Most of all I was happy I could leave the theater reassured that Ennis would go on and love his children and let them bring him joy despite the secret silent numbness he would always feel in knowing Jack, who he severely loved, is gone.

Such stupidity on my part, to worry about Ennis weeks after I see the movie, smiling when I think about being born almost 2 years before Jack died, forgetting that in reality there is no sad old man in a trailer who was once Jack Twist's lover, no old man to console if I ever saw him walking down a lonely stretch of mountain trail. I've never wanted characters to be real like this before. I hate to sound so cliche, but Brokeback got me dang good.


~~~~~~~~
I'll quote whatever I feel like quoting, GOSH!!
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by afterpreg     (Tue Aug 15 2006 06:43:37 )   
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I never realized this!
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by idgeet     (Fri Aug 25 2006 23:16:56 )   
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bumping for obvious reasons!!

"...later." 
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by Sanggie     (Sat Aug 26 2006 05:42:50 )   
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saved!! bumpity
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by DryToast      (Mon Jan 23 2006 18:10:15 )   
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I wrote this on another thread, so forgive me if I quote myself.
I don't see Ennis's attitude toward Jack's seeing other men as anything so romantic as jealousy.... they are still to an extent pretending to themselves and to each other that they're not "queer." If Ennis knows that Jack is having sex with other guys, that makes Jack something far worse in Ennis's eyes than merely unfaithful, it makes Jack (and therefore Ennis) "queer." The threat of physical violence that Ennis makes to Jack is a homophobic response to Jack's and Ennis's own homosexuality.


"Sounds like Pansy has the croup."
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by girdie     (Mon Jan 23 2006 18:11:19 )   
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And then there's that! LMAO!! Very possible!
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by the_Poppuns      (Mon Jan 23 2006 18:12:42 )   
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Yeah, I'll go along with that.

When you cancel Arrested Development it hurts Jesus
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by plato21     (Mon Jan 23 2006 18:37:53 )   
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DryToast, that seem reasonable, but didn't he suspect Jack was going to Mexico, which is why he held off confronting him about it for years? How does he want Jack to take his comment: "..could get you killed if I should come to know them."
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by carjones51     (Mon Jan 23 2006 19:09:42 )   
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Bpilato, Ennis threatened to kill Jack b/c he was angry and upset to learn that Jack had slept with another guy. I know some posters believe Ennis was angry about Jack's Mexico trip b/c it "proves" that Jack is gay, but I don't believe that had anything to do with his anger. I think it was plain, old-fashioned jealousy.

I've only seen the movie once, but remember, Ennis asks Jack about Mexico and says he (Ennis) knows what Mexico has for boys like him (Jack). Jack admits to having gone to Mexico. Ennis becomes enraged at this point, and that's when he threatens Jack. The knowledge that Jack had been with another man (or men) devastated Ennis. He thought they were "exclusive."

Ennis wants Jack, but he doesn't want to give Jack what Jack really wants and he doesn't want Jack seeing anyone else. He wants Jack to be content and satisfied w/their sporadic meetings. Jack obviously feels constrained by the relationship b/c he speaks of Ennis keeping him on a short leash. Jack can't ge the relationship he truly wants. He can't spontaneously visit Ennis. He can't call Ennis. He can't talk to Ennis in public. He can only meet Ennis when Ennis wants. That's why Jack confronts Ennis after Ennis threatens him. He's fed up at this point.

Anyway, Ennis's anger and jealousy over Jack's "cheating" erupts into a threat.
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by DryToast      (Mon Jan 23 2006 20:22:28 )   
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bpilato, I think Ennis is essentially saying, "If you force me to face who we are and what we've been doing, I'll kill you." Of course, Ennis would only feel the anger and apprehension and not understand the reasons behind his feelings. (Of course I understand why people prefer to read this entire dynamic as mere jealousy. It's less complex and more romantic, and it reduces the movie to mere melodrama. I think the movie is more serious and intelligent than that.)

"Sounds like Pansy has the croup."
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by carjones51     (Mon Jan 23 2006 20:32:47 )   
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Must you be so insulting? Can't others have opinions that are different from yours?

Ugh . . . .
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by DryToast      (Mon Jan 23 2006 20:46:08 )   
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Must you be so insulting? Can't others have opinions that are different from yours?
I am acknowledging that others see it a different way, a way that I feel diminishes the movie. I wasn't insulting anyone. I wasn't even responding to you. If you choose to take my comment personally, that's your own hysteria. (Now you may feel officially insulted.)

"Sounds like Pansy has the croup."
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by carjones51     (Mon Jan 23 2006 20:56:33 )   
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So, why does it diminish the movie? Why must Jack be killed by hate-filled bigots for the movie to have any meaning? In the end, Jack is dead. How is died is really of no consequence, in my opinion. He's dead. Ennis had his chance w/Jack, and he didn't take it. If Jack really died as a result of a gay bashing, then aren't Ennis's fears confirmed? Didn't he make the right decision to keep Jack at arms length?

I think the movie's point --- at least for me --- was that you shouldn't let your fears or society or familial obligations stop you from being with someone you love. Life is short. So, if you love someone, you should tell him/her before it's too late.
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by DryToast      (Mon Jan 23 2006 21:09:21 )   
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UPDATED Mon Jan 23 2006 21:14:43
My post had absolutely nothing to do with Jack's fate.

I was addressing the topic of this thread, which is Ennis's attitude towards Jack having sex with other men. Ennis's internalized homophobia is essential to the meaning of this movie, and I think that reading his anger towards Jack as mere jealousy over-romanticizes the harsh realities of the movie.

I certainly agree that the movie's point is that "you shouldn't let your fears or society or familial obligations stop you from being..." ...I'd say "being yourself" rather than "being with someone you love," as you put it, because I think the point is broader than (but inclusive of) love. For Ennis, being himself would allow him to be with the person he loves.

Someone told a story on this board about hearing a guy crying in the theater after the movie, and the guy said to the girl he was with, "If you tell anyone about this, I'll kill you." That guy was Ennis as well (maybe that's why he was crying). He couldn't even accept his own feelings about a movie!

The movie is about a man who collaborates in his community's thwarting of his own happiness. I think that's why the film is touching such a wide variety of people.


"Sounds like Pansy has the croup."
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by carjones51     (Mon Jan 23 2006 21:43:57 )   
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UPDATED Mon Jan 23 2006 21:48:05
You know what? You're right! Sorry about that :-)


I had been in another post re: Jack's fate, and I guess my mind was still on that when I posted to you. Thank you for your response b/c you did answer my question.



I appreciate your interpretation. I saw it as jealousy b/c I believed that that after 20 years of being w/Jack, Ennis had "accepted" that he was attracted to Jack and loved Jack. I thought his hang-ups, at that point, primarily had to do w/society and his fear of gays being killed. So, when Ennis threatens Jack, I interpreted him to be speaking from a place of jealousy, not anger that Jack's homosexuality is more "real" b/c Jack had a fling (or two) in Mexico.


By the way, do you think of BBM as a romance movie? I certaintly do. It's not a happy romance, but I definitely view it as a tragic love story.
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by austendw      (Tue Jan 24 2006 05:39:18 )   
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do you think of BBM as a romance movie? I certaintly do. It's not a happy romance, but I definitely view it as a tragic love story.

I think I think of it as a strangulated love story.

Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by carjones51     (Tue Jan 24 2006 06:16:09 )   
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Interesting description. Why do you feel that way?
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by girdie     (Tue Jan 24 2006 06:34:17 )   
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Actually, I think it was just plain old jealousy. He shoved him in anger. Jack tells him he is having an affair with the rancher's wife, not the rancher. He knows it's acceptable among the two if it is a woman, but that Ennis would freak if he was seeing another guy.

As far as there being no villian, maybe society is the villian in this story. Think about it. Ennis is always looking around out of fear as if he is being watched,and well, if you believe Jack was murdered, than society killed him.
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by carjones51     (Tue Jan 24 2006 07:03:52 )   
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"Actually, I think it was just plain old jealousy. He shoved him in anger. Jack tells him he is having an affair with the rancher's wife, not the rancher. He knows it's acceptable among the two if it is a woman, but that Ennis would freak if he was seeing another guy."

Girdie, I agree. That's how I saw the scene as well. Ennis did shove Jack, and it seemed as if his anger was stemming from Jack's "infidelity," not his homosexuality.

I also think Jack lied b/c, as you said, he knew Ennis would be angry if Jack admitted to seeing another guy. Despite their rare dates, they are in a relationship of sorts. I still don't really view Jack as a cheater, but that's a different topic.

Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by girdie     (Tue Jan 24 2006 07:14:15 )   
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UPDATED Tue Jan 24 2006 07:15:45
Carjones- yeah, I think people tend to read too much into stuff sometimes. Also, it bothers me when people are angry at either one of the characters: "Jack cheated" or "Ennis didn't committ". There was no instruction manual on how to deal with what they were going through. Like I said before, this is not a man and woman we are talking about, but a man and man. Add to that it was the 1960's and you have a very complicated situation.
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by carjones51     (Tue Jan 24 2006 07:31:04 )   
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Girdie --- someone below posted that ppl may be over-analyzing this scene, and I tend to agree. I just think he was jealous and hurt that Jack had slept w/someone else.

I must admit that I've touted the "Ennis didn't commit" line before BUT it was always in response to the "Jack's a slut," "Jack's a cheater," or "Ennis's love is more pure" line. LOL :-)

In the end, I wish Ennis had done a little bit more to reassure my Jack. But as you said, the time and situation did not allow for that.
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by girdie     (Tue Jan 24 2006 07:35:55 )   
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UPDATED Tue Jan 24 2006 07:36:51
Carjones- Thanks carjones! I get what you mean about people ripping Jack apart. Ennis is my favourite, but I love the character of Jack Twist very much as well, and it angers me when people get pissed of at them or criticize them. Thanks, again.
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by carjones51     (Tue Jan 24 2006 08:16:42 )   
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Girdie ---- you're welcome :-)


The expectations some have for Jack are unreasonable in my opinion. I love both characters, but I would say most of my sympathy lies w/Jack. All he really wanted was to be in a real relationship w/Ennis, and he never got to have that. His relationship w/Ennis was likely "killing" Jack. He knows who he wants to be with for the rest of his life. He knows his feelings are reciprocated. He's willing to risk it all and be w/this person, but the person is not willing (or ready) to take those same risks. He tries to think of ways they could be together, but each time, Ennis knocks down those hopes. I'm sure Jack wondered how Ennis felt about him. Here he is willing to leave everything to be w/Ennis, but Ennis is not. It had to have crossed Jack's mind if Ennis really loved him. I just think that after 20 years, Jack was ready to take the next step, and I can't say that I blame him.

I know Ennis wasn't happy w/the arrangement either, but he could "stand it" for the most part. I just don't think Jack could do the same. As someone else posted, I think ppl view Jack as happy-go-lucky b/c he smiles and doesn't react, but that is a mask. I think Jack was very hurt by their situation. He just didn't let it show.
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by iroc95     (Thu Jan 26 2006 20:56:39 )   
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carjones51, You have a point is saying you think Jack lied about the affair with the rancher's wife. Jack may have been having a fling with the rancher instead, when Ennis went to visit Jacks parents, Jack's father said first Jack talk about working with Ennis on the family ranch & building a cabin together, then the father admitted to Ennis that when that idea didn't work out, Jack talked about another rancher he wanted to work with.
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by tmelchior     (Thu Jan 26 2006 21:25:38 )   
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FYI to all... Jack and Ennis were on BBM that first summer ONLY. They never went back. Its not clear in the movie, but stated specifically in the story.

"You know it could be like this, just like this, always" - Jack Twist

[TOoP/Bruce]

Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by xsparkle_motionx     (Tue Jan 24 2006 06:50:41 )   
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In my opinion...
Saying Ennis made his comment because he didn't want to face the fact that Jack was, indeed, a homosexual is over-analyzing the situation.
It was Pure D. Jealousy.
Never before had Ennis shown a hatred for homosexuals in such a violent way.
He even disdainfully talked about the murder of that gay ranch hand when he was a kid. Saying sadly that for all he knew his dad had done the job.


I'm gonna pitch a pup tent on the QT with Jake G.
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by austendw      (Wed Jan 25 2006 00:05:22 )   
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Well, strangulated in the sense of constricted. It's a relationship that survives, just, in terribly restrictive circumstances.

Relationships, all relationships (I mean of course, "romantic/sexual partnerships") are difficult. The best of marriages have their ups and downs. Long gay relationships are still often considered something of a rarity, and given the pressures and temptations, etc, that conduce to their wreckage, that's not surprising. (When I tell people that I've beenn in a relationship with another guy for nearly 18 years, they congratulate me as if I've successfully climbed Mount Everest.) I watched the film for the second time last night, and I became aware what a struggle Jack and Ennis had over those 20 years, given their circumstances, the restrictions and compromises and competing needs. And like any relationship, it had its overwhelmingly passionate beginning, and then the quieter years, and towards the end I got the feeling that their relationship was becoming very attenuated. Ennis couldn't get to see him as often as he wanted, but was also perhaps not making quite as much effort as he might have done a few years earlier. That's certainly what Jack felt. And Jack was becoming very pissed off because those increasingly infrequent high-altitude f_cks weren't enough to sustain him. He needed (had always needed) a more sustained, fuller relationship - more complete companionship.

And now I have no idea where I was intending to go with this reply. I've lost my drift entirely. Oh well, I'll post it anyway, just in case you or anyone else can discover some logic in it.

Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by nycbhh-1     (Thu Jan 26 2006 12:23:26 )   
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"Long gay relationships are still often considered something of a rarity, and given the pressures and temptations, etc, that conduce to their wreckage, that's not surprising. "

That's something that has always irritated me about one of the points members of the anti-gay moment like to use to make us sound like heathens. They love to say that gay men are so promiscuous in general. I just want to shout at them "Well what do you expect when people like you are doing everything in your power to keep us from having a fully committed relationship?" If they really were so concerned about promiscuity, they would support gay marriage.
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by austendw      (Thu Jan 26 2006 12:44:09 )   
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If they really were so concerned about promiscuity, they would support gay marriage.

Exactly.

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Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by austendw      (Thu Jan 26 2006 12:56:58 )   
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LOL!

Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by Laurent_jc     (Thu Jan 26 2006 11:50:51 )   
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Absolutely a true romance yes - what else !!
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by Ellemeno     (Tue Jan 24 2006 01:00:28 )   
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>> The movie is about a man who collaborates in his community's thwarting of his own happiness. I think that's why the film is touching such a wide variety of people.

Hi DryToast et al,

I was thinking today how there is no human villain in this movie. I mean LD Newsome is as bad as it gets. Or Jack's father, but whatever, there is no really, really bad guy in this film. The FEAR of bad guys has successfully taken hold and runs the show.
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by austendw      (Tue Jan 24 2006 05:34:58 )   
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I was thinking today how there is no human villain in this movie.

That's funny Ellemeno, I was only thinking yesterday how totally rotten all the fathers appear in the film. Newsome is a boorish pig; Ennis's father was a nasty, dangerous man who, as far as his son was concerned, could easily have participated in the murder of the old rancher; and John Twist, the stud duck, has, I think rightly, been described by people on another thread as "a bitter, narcissistic old coot who didn't care for anything he couldn't control", "utterly despicable," "monstrously hard and cruel, without a particle of love or compassion for anyone" and "a ratbastard".

Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by Ellemeno     (Wed Jan 25 2006 00:35:45 )   
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That's funny Ellemeno, I was only thinking yesterday how totally rotten all the fathers appear in the film.


As I wrote it i know I wasn't explaining myself well, but I got lazy. Yes, Jack and Ennis's fathers each had an ugly track record.. But I meant in the present (1963-early 1983, before Jack dies), no one is really evil. It's the fear of evil that keeps people in line.

"It's nobody's business but ours - and our IMDb friends'."
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by austendw      (Tue Jan 24 2006 05:11:12 )   
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Ennis's internalized homophobia is essential to the meaning of this movie, and I think that reading his anger towards Jack as mere jealousy over-romanticizes the harsh realities of the movie.

Yes, DryToast, I think you are right about Ennis and the issue of internalised homophobia. I don't think for an instant that it's as simple as mere jealousy: why otherwise was Ennis blithely unconcerned about Jack's confession of an affair with a rancher's wife? Ennis is... well, I can't say it better than you have done already: "If Ennis knows that Jack is having sex with other guys, that makes Jack something far worse in Ennis's eyes than merely unfaithful, it makes Jack (and therefore Ennis) 'queer.'"

There is an awful irony about this. Having in childhood seen a man killed because he was queer, and explicitly scared that this could happen to himself and Jack, Ennis still himself threatens to kill Jack... because he's queer. What a graphic demonstration of the way society's homophobia becomes part of Ennis himself. And as Jack's queerness has implications for Ennis's own sexuality, this episode reveals the psychological mechanism that so often gives rise to gay-bashing. How often have gay men been beaten and killed by straight guys who have actually had sex with their victims, and who then have to punish or even kill the supposed "cause" of their compromised sexuality? (I can't remembed all the details, but I remember watching a documentary about the murder of a transexual man: one of his killers, while kicking him to death, kept shouting "I can't be gay, I can't be gay.")

The wording of Ennis's threat also shows the strange self-deception that is involved in this sort of internalised homophobia. Ennis doesn't want to be told the facts of Jack's exploits in Mexico, yet by knowing there are facts which mustn't be spoken of, he already knows the truth of what he doesn't want to discover... if you follow my drift. It's a contorted, tortuous, self-deceptive logic.

Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by carjones51     (Tue Jan 24 2006 06:58:58 )   
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UPDATED Tue Jan 24 2006 07:09:38
Austendw, I think Ennis is not jealous when Jack sleeps w/the rancher's "wife" b/c that woman doesn't represent a threat to Ennis's relationship w/Jack. That's what Jack is "supposed" to be doing: sleeping w/women. It's what society expects, so Ennis doesn't care if Jack is sleeping w/Lureen, the rancher's wife, or any other woman.

However, if Jack is sleeping w/another man or men, Ennis would perceive that as a betrayal and a threat to their relationship. As far as men are concerned, they are only supposed to be sleeping w/each other. The potential to actually fall in love is greater w/a man than it is w/a woman for Jack, and Ennis knows this. If Jack is "connecting" with other guys, then Jack could leave him. That's why I saw Ennis as extremely jealous (and hurt) in the scene. In sleeping with other guys, Jack is, in Ennis's mind, cheating on him. There has to be some jealousy there.
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by tmelchior     (Thu Jan 26 2006 21:14:08 )   
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carjones51 - I totally agree. Ennis would not have threatened Jack because Jack's sleeping with other men is a revelation of their "gayness" - it had been 20 years, for God's sake! Ennis has a line somewhere... can;t remember exactly now, and maybe its in the story... where he says something like "what do others do" or "are there others like us" - which could be referring to gay men playing straight or just gay men. No, Ennis was jealous and upset at the potential of losing Jack.

"You know it could be like this, just like this, always" - Jack Twist
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by almine     (Wed Jan 25 2006 01:49:01 )   
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Yes, DryToast, I think you are right about Ennis and the issue of internalised homophobia. I don't think for an instant that it's as simple as mere jealousy: why otherwise was Ennis blithely unconcerned about Jack's confession of an affair with a rancher's wife? Ennis is... well, I can't say it better than you have done already: "If Ennis knows that Jack is having sex with other guys, that makes Jack something far worse in Ennis's eyes than merely unfaithful, it makes Jack (and therefore Ennis) 'queer.'"

When I first read the short story almost 2 yrs ago, this was my thought also. But as I lurked on boards discussing BBM, there were a lot more posts where people saw Ennis' anger as romantize jealousy. I am a bit swayed by this just because there is so much harsh reality with the story that I wanted a softer interperation for this scene/part. But I do have to agree that I think DryToast's comment is the original intent of the story.
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by PeterDecker     (Wed Jan 25 2006 02:02:41 )   
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Ennis can't deal with Jack being unfaithful to him with another man. Jack seems to be aware of this that's why earlier he mentions that he's having an affair with the neighbour's "wife" and not with Randy.

By this point, twenty years on, Ennis is well aware and has accepted that he and Jack are homosexuals. There's no more of that "I ain't queer s h i t." happening.

Ennis has the insane jealousy you get when someone you love cheats on you. It's best for everybody if Ennis doesn't know these things.
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by carjones51     (Wed Jan 25 2006 05:33:07 )   
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UPDATED Wed Jan 25 2006 05:45:00
PeterDecker, I'm with you on this topic. After 20 years, Ennis can't still be clinging to the belief that he and Jack aren't gay. Ennis knows who he is at this point in his life, or, at least, I hope he does. I think he makes the threat b/c he's upset that Jack slept w/someone else.

"Ennis has the insane jealousy you get when someone you love cheats on you."


Exactly!
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by austendw      (Wed Jan 25 2006 15:46:29 )   
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But, cj, why does Ennis talk about what happens in Mexico for "boys like you"? You don't feel that's slightly aggressive and accusatory? What does he mean here? He may know who or "what" Jack is, but that "you" very much distances himself from "it", wouldn't you say?

Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by LadyDi4476      (Wed Jan 25 2006 21:20:31 )   
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I agree austendw. When Ennis says "boys like you" there is some hostility going on there. It's like he's saying Jack is queer and he isn't. Basically he's saying he's not like Jack. He's not looking to get with other guys all the time. I think he didn't want to hear about Mexico for two reasons. One yes he was probably jealous and second he didn't want to acknowledge how Jack really is. That yes he is indeed gay. He's always had issues his entire life dealing with that subject matter. He barely wants to talk about it in terms of their relationship so he sure as hell won't want to hear about Jack screwing male prostitutes.


I wish I knew how to quit you-BBM
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by carjones51     (Thu Jan 26 2006 11:14:30 )   
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Hey, Austendw! I thought this post had died. LOL.


Anyway, I hear what you're saying. It does seem like Ennis is distinguishing himself from Jack. He says it in a hurtful, condescending tone, so I think he was also trying to hurt Jack.

I just think that when Jack confirms that he has been to Mexico, Ennis's jealousy and hurt erupts. He doesn't want Jack sleeping w/other guys, not b/c it proves Jack's gay, but b/c it threatens their relationship. I truly think Ennis has always known that Jack was gay. He knows Jack isn't, and has never really been, satisifed w/their relationship. If Jack is sleeping w/other guys, then Ennis knows he could lose Jack to some other man.

I think his threat is as simple as being angry that Jack has "cheated" on him.
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by austendw      (Thu Jan 26 2006 12:42:26 )   
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Well, cj, I guess I'm more sceptical about Ennis "knowing" all that much. I'm sure he is jealous, and angry, and all those things, but - I dunno - there's more to it than that. His aggression in that particular moment is too...cold.

But don't get me wrong, I think he feels all the things you are saying as well. He breaks down a bit later and at that point reveals his fear that Jack will really quit, his anxieties, his need, and the desperate vulnerability he has striven to hide from Jack and himself all these years.

Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by carjones51     (Thu Jan 26 2006 15:51:14 )   
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He was very cold in that moment, wasn't he? Do you think Ennis had been clinging to the fact that they weren't "queer" all those years? I guess I just like to think that Ennis made some steps toward personal growth. I don't think he was at the point where he would go to a Gay Pride Parade (lol) but I think he had acknowledged --- to some extent --- his sexuality at that point in his life.


The "boys like you" comment is a put-down though. He does seem to be differentiating himself from Jack. I just wonder why Jack decided to tell the truth.

[TOoP/Bruce]

Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by austendw      (Wed Jan 25 2006 02:27:23 )   
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UPDATED Wed Jan 25 2006 05:30:02
But I do have to agree that I think DryToast's comment is the original intent of the story.

I watched the film for a second time last night and I was struck by the similarity of Ennis's reaction to both Jack's admission that he'd been to Maxico and Alma's comments about Ennis and Jack's so-called "fishing trips". In both instances Ennis gets very up-tight and threatening: and I feel sure that's got something to do with his sense of himself being challenged.

But I don't rule out jealousy and possessiveness in his response either. I don't think anything much can be ruled out.

Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by jacktwist-19      (Thu Jan 26 2006 11:48:38 )   
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I do not think anyone on this thread has thought of one very basic dimension of Ennis' sexual bend: he is primarily straight. It is safe to infer that Ennis was a virgin when he teamed up with Jack on Brokeback. Remember, he said to Jack at one point, "Speak for yourself [Jack had implied that they would both go to hell] -- as for me, I have never had the opportunity to sin." At age 19, Ennis was completely adrift: orphaned, let go by both brother and sister, feeling unloved other than by Alma, from whom he was to be absent all summer. Light-hearted Jack is there to cheer him up, and, slowly Ennis, connects to this individual. The boys are 19, horny as hell, sequestered on the mountain top in total privacy, it's cold, and they lie side by side -- would it not be almost unthinkable if nothing happened, even with two "straight" guys? Then, to top if off, Jack clearly encodes to Ennis who the top man is to be. Later, when they deny being queer, they are sincere. However, as the story proceeds, it is clear that Jack is at least bisexual, whereas Ennis never shows the slightest interest in another male. It was only the Brokeback environment that licensed Ennis' inexplicable cross-over, and he thought the dynamics were exactly the same for Jack. So, when Mexico assignations asserted themselves on the part of Jack, Ennis sensed that Jack risked betraying the Brokeback pact: i.e., we are two straight guys [Ennis reasons] but by some unspeakable Brokeback magic this pact was forged. Conclusion, Ennis, in learning that there may be Mexican adventures in Jack's itinerary, feels that Jack could betray the pact. It is thus more rage at the possibility of betrayal than it is old-fashioned jealousy. That is my take. The great mystery of their relationship is this: do they fall in love because they are gay, or are they gay because they fall in love? No one can answer that, which is why most people revolt when they hear the movie being called a gay film. --John Dukes
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by lvwmprovost      (Thu Jan 26 2006 12:38:27 )   
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It was only the Brokeback environment that licensed Ennis' inexplicable cross-over ...

I've been thinking about that statement. What is the meaning of the motel scene with regard to that? It is the one time that Ennis has sex with Jack when they aren't on Brokeback Mountain. Why does Ennis take that risk? In his own hometown?
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by jacktwist-19      (Thu Jan 26 2006 16:14:24 )   
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Provost, Once the pact was made on Brokeback, where the sexual connection was made, they were "licensed" to continue connecting anywhere it was safe to do so: motel, tent on fishing trips, etc. Let's not forget that Ennis took a God-awful risk kissing Jack in full view of Alma -- all she had to do was open the door or peep out a window. I think it was a mistake on Lee Ang's part to allow this reckless kiss to go on so long. In fact, Alma should only have seen it a tiny split second, so, that later, she herself wondered whether her eyes were deceiving her. THat would have been more subtle.
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by Nickmac11     (Thu Jan 26 2006 17:01:33 )   
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I disagree with the claim that the reunion kiss should have been shorter merely because, sexuality out of the question, it's quite clear these two have greatly missed each other and, after four years apart, I think that's quite an expected reaction. Especially if (Now assuming both are completely, 100% gay) these two haven't been able to be fully sexually satisfied and they now have the chance.
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by moviemom44     (Thu Jan 26 2006 15:53:23 )   
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The great mystery of their relationship is this: do they fall in love because they are gay, or are they gay because they fall in love?

Wow! I'm still trying to wrap my mind around that one! I thought about how alone in the world Ennis was, but never put it together like you did, bobjones-19.

I also believe Ennis' threat was rooted in his inability to think of himself as "queer", something that would have been inescapable if he acknowledged Jack's desire for sex with other men. He was just trying to protect what little hold he had on the one relationship that had any real meaning to him, the one complete connection that he had with another human being. Like you said, Ennis may know deep down that Jack is attracted to other men, but as long as it is never openly acknowledged, then Ennis can believe that Jack lives just like he does, only having sex with women when the two of them are apart. Jack must know Ennis feels this way, or why would he lie about "the ranch foreman's wife"?

Truth -- say it now or die lyin'" -- Fergus (ROAR)
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by peekingthrough     (Thu Jan 26 2006 14:54:57 )   
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Ennis' reaction to Jack is clearly an emotional one. Strong emotions occuring in the moment are far more complex than can be reduced to one word, "jealousy" or one phrase, "internalized homophobia". They are intertwined with self-image, projections of fears and desires onto others, and personal history.

A character like Ennis is so far removed from any understanding of his own emotions that when they do "well up" there is an overwhelming tangle of feelings that is impossible to untie. If Ennis is unable to identify what specifically is happening to him, it is impossible for an observer to characterize the intrinsically subjective nature of this tangle. This is the reality of emotions, especially negative ones.

Emotions, and the reactions they create, can be intellectualized and categorized for discussion purposes, but they are anything but black and white. They are not that simple in real-life and, brilliantly, they are not that simple in this film. This is why this is a phenomenal movie. It doesn't reduce true-life emotional complexity to simple answers.

The length and intensity of discussion in this thread is testament to the filmmakers' vision and success in portraying the characters' complex emotions. Both interpretations of Ennis' reaction are simultaneously correct and the true complexity lies in this understanding.

It is also interesting to be self-reflexively aware that while you are interpreting Ennis' reaction you are involving a complex tangle of your own emotions, intellect and personal history.
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by thatwritergirl33     (Thu Jan 26 2006 21:42:05 )   
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Peekingthrough:

Regarding your whole entire comment...thanks. Your last two paragraphs have completely explained the muddle that's been going on in my fence-straddling Libran head for the entire duration of this thread.

"we are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of dreams..."
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by austendw      (Fri Jan 27 2006 04:28:28 )   
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UPDATED Fri Jan 27 2006 04:36:06
Yes, peekingthrough, I think you're entirely right about the complexity of issues involved here. No-one can categorically exclude one or other aspect, emotion, feeling, motivation. There is more rather than less.

It is also interesting to be self-reflexively aware that while you are interpreting Ennis' reaction you are involving a complex tangle of your own emotions, intellect and personal history.

This becomes even more obvious when issues of sexuality are discussed. People view the film differently according to their sexuality, experience, politics even; they empathise with the characters; they read their own subjectivities into them. For one gay person Ennis is obviously gay and closeted; the movie becomes "richer" or "clearer" when you see it that way. And then others come along, perhaps straight, or bi-sexual, and see it as much "richer" or "complex" if you see Ennis as obviously bi-sexual... no, no, straight, and romantically attached to only one other person who just happens to be a man...etc etc. People invest a lot emotionally in the film and get upset when other interpretations challenge their own. Here politics comes into the mix: Posters insinuate that people who don't see Ennis as 100% gay must have a suspicious, sinister agenda, the straights are trying to co-opt him, devalue gayness, disappear it. The commitment to the film becomes proprietorial and possessive.

What is equally obvious, however, is that people sometimes (ofgten even) seem quite unaware that they are doing this. To a certain extent that's inderstandable. We can never get behind our subjectivity; we can see ourselves seeing, but cannot see ourselves seeing ourselves seeing... if you get my drift. Nevertheless it is always right to acknowledge that we bring ourselves and our past to any viewing of a film, we always carry our own baggage, and must never mistake our views for a somehow more authoritative vision.

Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by TomHm23     (Thu Jan 26 2006 13:14:50 )   
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I think Ennis is essentially saying, "If you force me to face who we are and what we've been doing, I'll kill you." Of course, Ennis would only feel the anger and apprehension and not understand the reasons behind his feelings. (Of course I understand why people prefer to read this entire dynamic as mere jealousy. It's less complex and more romantic, and it reduces the movie to mere melodrama. I think the movie is more serious and intelligent than that.)

Honestly I don't see why jealousy would be less complex since I happen to think it's a very layered emotion to have. I think by now Ennis has come to terms that at least what they are doing is "queer". I mean he already had a conversation with Jack telling him that he felt like people would know just by looking at him. Ennis may still be struggling with it but I dont' think at this point he's denying it to the extent that he'd get mad at Jack for saying it. He does say "boys like you" which could imply that Jack is more gay than he is but if that's what he believes, facing that part of the issue still wouldn't seem to be what would bother him so much as the jealousy. (Of course "boys like you" could just as easily be something like "boys that can't hide it and are always jumping into situations w/o thinking" or whatever.) I do think the movie is serious and intelligent but I don't agree that jealous is merely a melodramatic emotion. It's complex in itself. Some people just get mad and yell. Others actually kill people over it because the emotion is so unstable. This movie has a lot of things in it that we can analyze and take apart, I'm just don't think EVERYTHING about it has to be this way and I don't think the space where this line is said is long enough for Ennis to go through more emotions than his fear that what they have isn't special enough to have it just be them two. JMO.
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by carjones51     (Thu Jan 26 2006 16:02:52 )   
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UPDATED Thu Jan 26 2006 16:09:06
Good post, Tom!

"I don't think the space where this line is said is long enough for Ennis to go through more emotions than his fear that what they have isn't special enough to have it just be them two. JMO."


I agree. Until this post, I hadn't really given that line much thought. Ennis makes this threat right after Jack confirms that he's been to Mexico. I don't remember the exact dialogue, but Ennis said something to the effect of, "What I don't know . . . all those things I don't know could kill you if I should come to know them." In other words, "I'll kill you if I find out you've been cheating on me."

And as you said, jealousy is a complex emotion. I saw Ennis as extremely jealous and rageful in that moment, and didn't think it was melodramatic. He reacted in the way I expected. Ennis thinks they are "exclusive," and Jack has proven that they aren't --- at least sexually.
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by jerome_otrp     (Thu Jan 26 2006 14:39:31 )   
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Well said, DryToast! I don't think that you're insulting anyone by giving your analysis beyond what other people might see as a plain jealousy in this particular dynamics. Let me also add that Ennis has this difficulty of accessing and therefore entirely expressing his feelings for Jack. Just remember that scene when he felt sick and angry at himself at the same time when he and Jack parted ways after their summer in BB. It's one of my favorite scenes in the movie coz it's so raw and honest!
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by ilnbnblm     (Mon Jan 23 2006 23:02:08 )   
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Being poor in English, I can't get what Ennis mean by saying it for a long time. And to my surprise, many people here are not sure about it either. Interesting!

And now, I'm totally with you on the interpretation.

After seeing the movie 3 times, looking through the novel in Chinese version and dwelling on some comemts, I think the words come out of fear or anger or worry( worrying about Jack might be kiiled by others, not by him literally, for the thing he didn't know yet), rather than jealousy. As a line in the screenplay goes:
Ennis Del Mar: You know I ain't queer.
Jack Twist: Me neither.
"The threat of physical violence that Ennis makes to Jack is a homophobic response to Jack's and Ennis's own homosexuality. " This is the point.

Ennis was always hiding from himself, he din't realize what a connection was between he and Jack until Jack died( He called the connection as "the thing").Or just tried to deny it even though he knew it subconsciously.

PS: pay some attention to Jack's answer to the sentence "...But you didn't want it...and then you ask me about Mexico and tell me you'll kill me for needing somethin' I don't hardly never get...." Seeing from the context, it's more of an accusatory answer toward Ennis' "fear" .

I think it will be more obviously clear if check it out in the novel.

Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by pfn216     (Tue Feb 14 2006 16:42:17 )   
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Thats a good interpretation
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by doctordon     (Thu Feb 16 2006 10:08:17 )   
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I think that you are on to something with this line of thought. Ennis is very complex, for an undeducated poor rural ranch hand. I like that about the film. I come from a rural midwest background and get sick and tired of the elites from the cities thinking that folks like us can't feel or think deeply or in any complex way. We're all part of the human race, same limitations, same possibilities.

I think that in addition to your proposition, Ennis also could not bear to confront the fact that Jack is unfaithful to him with another man because it would hurt him hard for the same reason that it would hurt any person hard if they knew that the one they loved was unfaithful. Ennis has perfected the skill of repressing what he can't tolerate. Out of sight, out of mind. It's how he survives at all. So that, too, would be threatened if Jack told him the truth about Mexico.
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Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by bktrini21     (Thu Apr 13 2006 07:33:08 )   
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Wow...didn't even think about that...very valid point though...I definitely agree but I still say there was a bit of good old fashioned jealousy in there as well though ..Ennis loved Jack, and when you find out that someone you love is "giving the goods" to someone else, jealousy is a natural reaction.
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by allovertheworld     (Mon Jan 23 2006 18:43:21 )   
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Someone else on a similar thread suggested that it was jealousy, and also might've been the closest Ennis came to saying "I love you". He was jealous and angry at Jack for fooling around with other guys because he wanted him for himself.

Sounded better the way the other guy described it.
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by SweetlilG     (Mon Jan 23 2006 18:44:37 )   
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this is how Ennis wants to tell Jack.. how much he loves him that he would "kill" him (we all know he wouldn't kill him) but in rage and anger we say things we don't mean them literally! so i take it that Ennis was jealous at this point and this is his way of telling Jack how much he loves him that he would kill him if he finds out about what he did in Mexico!

  !!The Brokeback Mountain Maniac YEE-HAW!! 
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by the_Poppuns      (Mon Jan 23 2006 18:46:33 )   
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I think he might've killed him. I said in another thread that he gets his emotions out by punching. If he was that hurt, you never know.

When you cancel Arrested Development it hurts Jesus
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by flashframe777     (Mon Jan 23 2006 18:47:50 )   
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He meant "don't tell me about you having sex with other men. I get really jealous."

"You bet." --Ennis del Mar

[TOoP/Bruce]

Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by stitchbuffymoulinfan     (Mon Jan 23 2006 18:46:25 )   
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UPDATED Thu Jan 26 2006 19:16:55
I initially thought that Ennis was jealous, but he could be resentful of the fact that they are both, indeed, gay.

I do like to think that it hurt Ennis that Jack's slept with other men; I think Ennis feels betrayed.

www.jlodown.com
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Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by RTprod     (Mon Jan 23 2006 19:57:14 )   
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UPDATED Tue Jan 24 2006 05:27:35
This is such a strange, beautiful line of written dialogue, the kind that doesn't really sound that natural coming out of the mouth, although Ledger pulls it off with aplomb. I'm not sure Ennis would say such a mouthful. I always thought he would say something simpler, like: "All those things I don't know could get you killed if I should ever find out."


"The huge sadness of the northern plains rolled down on him..."
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by plato21     (Tue Jan 24 2006 04:21:49 )   
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I agree, it is a strange sounding line. It's interesting to note that according to Jack's father, Jack planned to bring another friend to the farm the help fix it up. Jack told his father that in the sprng, which was months before the touching last scene together with Ennis. What with Mexico trips, and the new friend, Jack had been drifting away. I would think that Ennis must have sensed this too in their last meeting.
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by austendw      (Tue Jan 24 2006 05:18:52 )   
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Jack told his father that in the sprng, which was months before the touching last scene together with Ennis.

Well I'm not so sure about this, bpilato. In the story certainly, Jack and Ennis meet for the last time in May, which I would classify as spring, and I'm not sure that there is any suggestion in the film that it is now high summer: it's certainly a good time before August when Jack was hoping to meet up with Ennis again. Many people have concluded that it was immediately after the last meeting with Ennis that Jack went back to his parent's place and mentioned the new "ranching-partner", and that this was a direct reaction to that final meeting. "I wish I knew how to quit" you, says Jack, and then he tries to think of a way.

Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by lo-eveline     (Tue Jan 24 2006 05:28:46 )   
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I tend to think it's a mixture of lot of feelings when he said that:

1. Ennis' own fear - that if Jack sleeps with other guys, it means Jack is queer and that he's in love with a queer himself, which means he is queer as well (other users explained better than I do)

2. Jealousy - there's got to be some degree of jealousy and hurt when he said that. Ennis doesn't get jealous when Jack sleeps with other women, cos Ennis knew how he feels about women himself and know that it's not the "real thing" (as Ennis said in the book "I like to make love to women too, but damn, it ain't as good as this (ie with Jack)")

3. Fear that Jack can actually leave him. Ennis wouldn't/couldn't sleep with other men, but this proves that Jack could and had. At the back of his mind, he might feel threathened by this. Remember when Jack cried "I wish I knew how to quit you", that's the point when Ennis broke down - he realised that it could actually happen - that Jack could leave him and this desvastated him.

Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by tbarry23     (Tue Jan 24 2006 07:03:35 )   
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It's VERY clear from the dialogue that he believes Jack is queer (his "boys like you" comment). It is jealousy. There is nothing else to it. He knows what Jack has done in Mexico, and when Jack confirms it by saying he went to Mexico, he's pissed off that Jack would even consider being with any guy other than him. Just look at his restraint when Jack's father tells him about the other guy from Texas. It has nothing to do with his own internalized homophobia.
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by carjones51     (Tue Jan 24 2006 07:23:38 )   
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Tbarry23, I agree w/you. I forgot about Ennis's "boys like you" comment. That just confirms, to me, that Ennis knew Jack was gay and had always known Jack was gay. Ennis is also very well aware of Jack's "displeasure" w/their relationship. He knows Jack wants more and has wanted more for a long time. Now, Jack has confirmed that he's been to Mexico. Ennis speaking from a place of jealousy, rage, and fear. He doesn't want Jack to be w/other guys. He's angry that Jack has "cheated" on him. And he's afraid that Jack will leave him or find love w/someone else.

Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by dnbfan     (Thu Jan 26 2006 09:51:54 )   
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With respect, if it were 'very' clear what he meant then we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Lo-evelyn sets out the points that dry toast and austen have made well. In my experience, there is rarely such a thing as a 'primary' emotion, for want of a better word. We rarely ever feel just one emotion to the exclusion of all others at any time, human nature is far more complex than that. How often do we say to ourselves 'I just don't know how I feel', or 'I don't know what to think'? This makes life, and movies like this, all the more interesting for it.

Others have suggested that Ennis has moved on and accepted his sexuality, but if he has come so far then why do they always return to the same spot to conduct their relationship? I think that the fact that Jack is prepared to travel so much further than Ennis might reflect the distances that each has travelled in accepting their sexuality.

Might the jealousy that Ennis feels be more than romantic jealousy? Might Ennis also be slightly jealous of Jack's happy-go-lucky approach to life, or the greater freedom that Jack's financial success allows him or the fact that Jack has clearly come to terms with his sexuality more Ennis has? It is possible.

Lo-evelyn's point about the fear of being alone might merit more discussion. After all, Ennis's parents died when he was young, and then his siblings quickly left the scene (sister married, brother - don't remember). Yet at the same time he shies away from human contact - one of the many ironies in the film, e.g. Ennis is reluctant to move to the town centre from their lonely tenancy. Perhaps this reflects his position in relation to the main stream of society that his sexuality places him, in that era and place?

What does anyone else think?
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by carjones51     (Thu Jan 26 2006 12:01:43 )   
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"Others have suggested that Ennis has moved on and accepted his sexuality, but if he has come so far then why do they always return to the same spot to conduct their relationship?"


I always thought this was b/c of Ennis's fear that he and Jack would be killed for being gay. I didn't think it had anything to do w/him denying his sexuality. Remember when Ennis asks Jack if people look at Jack funny like they "know." Ennis felt that like the townspeople "knew" about him. Knew what about him? The only answer I can come up w/is that Ennis fears that people know that he is gay.

dnbfan, I also thought that Ennis would only meet Jack in the middle of nowhere b/c of Ennis's fear that he and Jack would be killed if caught together. Anyway, that's just my opinion.
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by dnbfan     (Thu Jan 26 2006 13:27:16 )   
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I agree that was a factor in the beginning however I also feel that it is more complicated than that. Nothing in film, well good films at any rate, is there by chance. Everything is there for a reason and I very much doubt it is purely coincidence, or lack of imagination or fear of being attacked that causes them to return to the exact same spot for twenty years. Interesting...
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by carjones51     (Thu Jan 26 2006 15:37:24 )   
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Well, dnbfan, Brokeback is where they met and fell in love. It represents the place where they were truly free to love and happy. I think that summer was the only time Jack and Ennis were ever truly happy. Jack loves Brokeback so much he tells his wife he wants his ashes spread there. Ennis was having so much fun on Brokeback that he doesn't want to leave.

So, maybe, they always return to Brokeback b/c it holds such fond memories for them. What do you think?
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by austendw      (Thu Jan 26 2006 12:19:16 )   
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Yes. I missed Lo-evelyn's post somehow. I agree entirely that there are a lot of things going on here. Ennis is not a simple person and he rarely expresses himself very clearly. When he does, there's a lot going on underneath. So yes, all these things are there: jealousy, possessiveness, sexual confusion, fear of competition, fear of being alone. But not just simple jealousy.

It's funny. Ennis and Jack never "name" their "relationship", they're never really "official," it's always a convenient arrangement - "this thing" that they do. Until this last meeting. Ironically the relationship is retrospectively acknowledged and made "official" when Jack cries: "I wish I knew how to quit you". By the threat of quitting, he announces that they were "together". It's as if a "marriage" is acknowledged only by mentioning divorce... if you catch my drift.

Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by xokatyxo     (Wed Jan 25 2006 05:46:58 )   
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I took it as Ennis's way of saying "Shut up before you say something we'll both regret."

Or, uh, to be even more concise "Don't go there".

You know, because it's one thing to have an idea that your boyfriend has done some messing around.. it's quite another to hear the DETAILS.


"What you call sin, I call the great spirit of love, which takes a thousand forms."
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by carjones51     (Thu Jan 26 2006 11:36:45 )   
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"You know, because it's one thing to have an idea that your boyfriend has done some messing around.. it's quite another to hear the DETAILS."


Exactly. And it is something else entirely to have your suspicions CONFIRMED. That's just what Jack did: confirmed Ennis's suspicions that he had been messing around.

I really don't think Jack was going to offer up any details though. LOL! He just said, "Heck yeah, I've been to Mexico."
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by maxou10     (Thu Jan 26 2006 12:41:02 )   
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I have to agree with the good old jealousy theory. When I read the short story that's exactly what I got from it. Ennis loves Jack so much that it hurts him dearly to know that Jack's been sleeping around. He tries to hurt Jack back by telling Jack "...I heard about places like that for boys like you in Mexico." (paraphrasing) Which akins to calling Jack a *beep* Therein lies the irony.
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by plato21     (Thu Jan 26 2006 16:03:17 )   
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In the book, the author makes it clear that his asking the question about Mexico is the turning point in the story.

Ennis: The tradeoff was August, You got a better idea?
Jack: (Bitter and accusatory) I did once.
(Ennis walks away to tend the horses then walks back at a deliberate pace.)

Ennis: You been to Mexico, Jack?
Jack: Hell yes, I've been. Where's the *beep* problem?
(Author's description: Braced for it, and here it came, late and unexpected)

What follows is Ennis's acidic threat, Jack's accusation, Ennis's breaking down, and Jack's silent look of regret and resolution as Ennis drives off. It is only a short time later, according to the events, that Jack has found another friend to fix up his father's farm.

[TOoP/Bruce]

Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by txdaydreamer     (Thu Jan 26 2006 12:48:15 )   
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I think he was worried that Jack would die the way the elderly gay man did in Ennis's childhood so Ennis threatened Jack.
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by andyvc     (Thu Jan 26 2006 14:21:37 )   
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Plato21,

I think Ennis might have meant that if he gets any STDs from Jack then he'll kill him. Maybe, maybe not...food for thought.
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by maxou10     (Thu Jan 26 2006 14:25:29 )   
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Hogwash! Don't forget the story was in '63 in rural America. These people did not get enough education to know about STD's.

Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by adamkeller     (Thu Jan 26 2006 16:44:40 )   
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I haven't read all these posts, but anyway, with regard to the original question, I think it was part jealousy an part internalized homophobia. It was a REALLY *beep* up situation. There were many layers of bad feelings there. Ennis must've been thinking deep down "well, sh*t, now not only am I gay, but my lover won't even be faithful to me"... it's an affront to his whole existence as he sees it. It's easy to understand why he'd be infuriated at both himself and Jack.
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by Rontrigger     (Thu Jan 26 2006 21:20:24 )   
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But it was the early '80s by the time of this confrontation. And Ennis would have at least heard of the "clap" and syphilis. AIDS still hadn't entered the rural consciousness much, but the other two can be scary enough.

"You can't have Ennis without Jack."--Annie Proulx
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by Ellemeno     (Fri Jan 27 2006 02:08:44 )   
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Re "boys like you,"

It could also partly be his own self-loathing smearing on to Jack in regard to simply enjoying sex with Ennis himself.

"You got a better idea.......hm?"
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by iluvmovies2000     (Fri Jan 27 2006 09:26:49 )   
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Hi all, I just saw BBM last night with my friends for my birthday. (Warning, this may ramble a bit due to said birthday).

My take on it was that it was mostly jealousy. In reading this thread, I can also see the "internalized homophobia" perspective, though I still lean more towards jealousy. I see it like this: Jack is more expressive, more emotive. Ennis is more quiet, subdued, private(i'm trying to use better words, but I think you get the idea).

For instance, near the beginning of the movie, when the two of them are talking, Jack says to Ennis "That's the most you've said in two weeks" and he replies "I think that's the most i've said all year". He keeps to himself, but was able to open up with Jack. Think of the difference in how they interacted with their children. We saw a scene with Jack bonding with his son in the tracter, letting him "drive" it in a circle, while with Ennis, he's always aloof...he leaves them alot, usually with them calling for him "Daddy, daddy", trying to get his attention. Elma calls him out for not supporting his children, and eventually divorces him. He's not a "people person" I guess. He has trouble connecting with most other people...even his own family. It wasn't until the very end, that he finally connects with his eldest daughter.

Notice how much he perks up at the very sound of Jack's truck pulling up to their apartment...he is only this way with Jack...only Jack makes him feel this "happy", for lack of a better word. He connects with Jack, but only up to the point that his own private nature allows him. He's more closed off, Jack wants more than just "a few high-altitude f**cks". You have this dynamic in a lot of relationships...you have some people who can't say "I love you", even if they feel it, you have some who are more needy than others when it comes to emotional confirmation, always wanting to be assured by their partner. I think it's telling when Jack says "I'm not like you" before the high-altitude line...to me, he's saying he can't just compartmentalize his feelings the way Ennis can, he can't just turn it off and on as he sees fit. Was it Jack that said something like "sometimes I miss you so much I can't hardly think of anything else"? I'm not sure, but if it was him, that further illustrates that.

I think Ennis, in feeling that he can connect the way he does with Jack and ONLY Jack, felt very jealous thinking about Jack connecting with another(or others). I think the "guys like you" line could mean guys like him that need to express that connection as frequently as Jack needs, and wanted to with Ennis...that's why Jack said don't threaten him for getting something he can't hardly get from Ennis.

People want to feel unique...Ennis felt what he had with Jack was unique. To know that Jack could "connect" with other guys the way he had connected with himself, I think, would definitely cause Ennis to feel that his unique thing was Jack is threatened, and thus he would be very jealous of that. I also agree that "Jealousy" is not a simple or one-dimensional emotion. Just because it's a more common phrase than "internalized homophobia" doesn't make it less complex. It's as valid an interpretation to that scene as interalized homophobia is. To gloss it over as "romantic" does it a dis-service.
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by kaos-23     (Fri Jan 27 2006 10:07:08 )   
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I agree with a lot of the comments by iluvmovies2000.

I also saw BBM for the first time last night. I think Ennis has mixed feelings and I think it's partly jealousy. I also think that it's partly his fear of identifying either himself or Jack as 'queer'.

Ennis sees their relationship as this strange 'thing that grabs hold of us', it's ok with him as long as he can compartmentalise it and keep it in a specific place (Brokeback Mountain, symbolically).

But if Jack is going out and having sex with other men, that means he's gay and that has implications for Ennis as well.

I'm not saying this is 'the truth' about this scene, just my interpretation. The reason I liked the film so much was that it had many ambiguous scenes / lines of dialogue where you could interpret the meaning in more than one way.
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by mallion8904     (Fri Jan 27 2006 09:32:54 )   
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bump
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by Front-Ranger     (Tue Feb 14 2006 16:01:28 )   
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My interpretation is that Ennis is telling Jack that if Jack "turns him into a queer" that they could both get killed. In other words, he is saying the same thing as when he says, "This thing takes a hold of us in the wrong place, at the wrong time, and we're dead." Only it's said with more desperation and urgency.
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by plato21     (Tue Feb 14 2006 16:28:39 )   
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Front-Ranger, think about what Jack says a few sentences later---

<<Count the damn few times we been together in twenty years. Measure the ***kin short leash you keep me on, then ask me about Mexico and then tell me you’ll kill me for needin it and not hardly never gettin it. >>

Jack probably knows Ennis better than anyone, including Ennis himself, so he must have seen this line as a serious threat. In fact, this is probably the very line that kills the relationship for Jack.
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by carjones51     (Thu Feb 16 2006 08:54:09 )   
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UPDATED Thu Feb 16 2006 11:20:00
Plato, I don't think Jack took Ennis's threat to kill him seriously. Jack didn't think Ennis was going to kill him. He did know that Ennis was very angry and jealous. That's why Jack lied and said he was seeing the rancher's wife. Jack knew Ennis would flip if Ennis knew that Jack was really sleeping w/the rancher and not the wife. Ennis is possessive of Jack, but is unwilling to give Jack what Jack really wants: a real relationship.

Ennis does threaten Jack. I think Jack is more taken aback by the audacity of the threat. Essentially, Ennis is angry b/c Jack has slept w/another man, but Jack wouldn't have slept w/other guys if he could have been w/Ennis on a permanent basis. I think that's why Jack gets upset and tries to explain his actions. He reminds Ennis that they could have had a life together, but Ennis didn't want it. He reminds Ennis that they rarely see each other and that Ennis keeps him on a "short leash." Jack, basically, asks Ennis how he can be angry w/him for having sexual desires and needs when they aren't really in a relationship. If Jack could have things his way, he and Ennis would have been living together years ago. Jack has spent 20 years waiting for Ennis to say, "Now, we can be together." Ennis is never going to say that.


Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by romeshvr     (Thu Feb 16 2006 09:36:14 )   
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I like to know how Ennis knew about Mexico in the first place? Jack obviously never told him so how does Ennis know what goes on in Mexico. Specifically how does Ennis know what Mexico has for boys like Jack? Ennis is paranoid to be even seen with Jack but he knows about Mexico?? Whose he been talking to??? No one has so far answered this question for me. Anyone want to try... You bet
Romesh

Jack Twist to Ennis Del Mar "Am pretty good with a can opener, though."
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by carjones51     (Thu Feb 16 2006 11:01:01 )   
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Romeshvr, I had the same question. Someone said maybe the guys Ennis works with have made mention of Mexico and guys going to Mexico for male prostitutes. I don't know. LOL! I've wondered about that myself b/c Ennis appears to be an extreme loner. Maybe, it's just common knowledge that one can get male prostitutes in Mexico.
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by EnnisLovesJack     (Thu Feb 16 2006 11:03:27 )   
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bump

"Redlined it all the way, couldn't get here fast enough."
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by romeshvr     (Thu Feb 16 2006 12:48:21 )   
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“You been a Mexico, Jack?” Mexico was the place. He’d heard. He was cutting fence now, trespassing in the shoot-em zone.

The above is from the original short story. Ennis brings up Mexico after Jack's following comment about sweet life...

“I did once.” The tone was bitter and accusatory.

It is almost like Ennis brought it up knowing he was touching a subject he shouldn't have. Ennis was probably hurting when Jack said 'I did once'.

Romesh

Jack Twist to Ennis Del Mar "Am pretty good with a can opener, though."

[TOoP/Bruce]

Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by lcpeters_88     (Wed Mar 22 2006 10:16:08 )   
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I agree with the people who think it was jealousy...I started crying when Ennis said this, and I was thinking, "Just tell him you love him, damn it!" They never told each other that they were in love, but it was so obvious. I think Jake was really great in this movie...the way he looked at Ennis was so amazing, like he was really in love with him. I don't think he's gay, I just think it's wonderful acting.

I prefer a man who lives and gives expensive jewels... 
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by ladycricket     (Wed Mar 22 2006 11:22:53 )   
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UPDATED Wed Mar 22 2006 11:24:47
I think the scene is open to interpretation. You don't have to believe anything anyone else tells you, it's how you respond to it. I read the book before I saw the film (as did most) and the distinct impression I got from the book in the lead up to the dialogue was that it was jealousy on the part of Ennis, pure and simple. But that was just me, other people might have a different take. But when Jack talks about Ennis keeping him on a 'short leash' it's obvious to me that Ennis is the dominant one in the relationship. After all, the whole thing is based on Ennis' refusal to commit. They do what Ennis wants all the time. He's like the alpha male. So it seems logical that the alpha male is definitely capable of extreme jealousy when that which he keeps on this 'short leash' has been galavanting off without his knowledge.

I think he's dead jealous Jack has been having a fun secret little time without his sayso or his involvement - that Jack is actually capable of making decisions that don't involve him. I just think it has more to do with plain jealousy than the threat of 'outing'. I don't think he'd be processing that deep to begin with. I'd have thought the first base instinct would be jealousy.
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by Front-Ranger     (Wed Mar 22 2006 11:56:49 )   
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I think Ennis' fear overrules any jealousy he might allow himself to feel. Even though Jack is 1200 miles away, he thinks day and night that word might get out. Road crews, ranch hands and any male gathering there is always a lot of homophobic talk, especially in states like Wyoming. Even the strange way that Ennis phrases this threat shows the edge of his fear. He is too afraid to even admit that he might LEARN of something, he has to say "If I should come to know them." So sad.

Front-Ranger
"There ain't no reins on this one."
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by jshane2002      (Fri Mar 31 2006 21:24:49 )   
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bump
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by joyce023     (Fri Apr 7 2006 10:19:52 )   
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bump
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by binbinc     (Fri Apr 7 2006 11:44:46 )   
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bump
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by joyce023     (Thu Apr 13 2006 06:41:30 )   
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bump
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by princessbuttercup70     (Thu Apr 13 2006 07:15:21 )   
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I have a slightly different take on the meaning of these words. "Could get you killed if I come to know them" may mean if the fact that Jack is having sex with other men and word of this gets around so much that Ennis finds out about it, it means a lot of people know and some others (gay haters) would want to kill him for it. Does anyone else see this as a possible meaning? I just can't see Ennis wanting to kill him, plus he already knows about Mexico at this point and hasn't killed him yeat!
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by bmcneil-1     (Thu Apr 13 2006 07:43:46 )   
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some others (gay haters) would want to kill him for it.


princess--do you mean they would want to kill Jack or Ennis?
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by joat69     (Thu Apr 13 2006 07:44:11 )   
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My interpitation of what Ennis said is that if he finds out the details that he could kill him. Jack also understands it that way, because he told Ennis that measuring the short lease he keeps on him and he neading something that he can't hardly get "that you want to kill me for".
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by riverviewantique     (Fri Apr 14 2006 21:26:42 )   
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Ennis could never kill Jack... he was just mad that jack was bit*hing to him because they couldn't hook up again till November and Ennis honostly couldn't. Jack wouldn't accept this because he needed to be with Ennis always, he couldn't get enough of him. Ennis was also scared that Jacks going to other guys could let out their secret and cause them both great harm. Alma had probably told someone about Ennis and Jack. I am sure Alma jr knew when she said to Cassie that her daddy isn't the marrying kind. Aguire may have left it slip too. Those cowboys were tough guys and fist fights were common. When Ennis said Jack could get killed if he came to know them I am sure he ment a fist fight. Ennis could never really harm Jack... look how he broke down afterwards at the lake scene. Ennis really loved Jack but in his world it wouldn't be accepted. Thats the point of the whole movie. Remember Ennis sitting in the meadow far off when they had to leave brokeback? He was sulking because he had to leave the secret world of Jack and Ennis which he loved and go back to the real world of his day (and ours) where all is not accepted. Going back to Alma, knowing that he loved Jack more that her,but getting married was the statue quo.
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by joyce023     (Thu Apr 27 2006 11:35:16 )   
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bump
bump (nm)   
  by DryToast      (Thu Apr 27 2006 21:49:38 )   
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 "And that's for not calling the liquor store!"
Re: bump (nm)   
  by pockethankie      (Fri Apr 28 2006 01:21:36 )   
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There are no pacts between lions and men
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  by joyce023     (Sun May 21 2006 10:15:52 )   
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Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by joat69     (Sat Aug 26 2006 06:49:02 )   
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Bump
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by CowboysInLove     (Fri Sep 8 2006 22:48:20 )   
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Bump
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Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by jackie-77     (Thu Nov 23 2006 23:03:47 )   
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bump
maybe I should say 'Spoiler'   
  by Dancing_Bear     (Fri Nov 24 2006 00:29:07 )   
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UPDATED Thu Nov 30 2006 08:11:19
When Ennis accuses Jack of shenanigans with other men I think it was insecure jealousy too, but now after you guys pointed all these things out, it brings to mind something romantic I hadn't thought of before. Ennis knows Jack went to Mexico (and he probably heard tell about 'Mexico' in a derisive manner from other ranch hands over the years, just speaking their mind) and fears Jack might find another guy to replace him. The sincere statement Jack makes "I wish I knew how to quit you!" practically brings Ennis to his knees with tears and emotional lashing out, obviously he fears losing his relationship with Jack. When he visits Lightning Flat and Jack's father starts making those nasty statements about how Jack had lately started talking about another fellow he was going to bring into the family milieu to 'help out' (like jibing for a jealous reaction from Ennis), Ennis looks up, all alert. Ennis knows Jack has been with other guys, and I think he probably wonders at that point if he indeed may have been outed. But then he goes up to Jack's spartan bedroom and finds no evidence of any other men in Jack's life. He finds the shirts tucked all the way in the back of the closet. So it's a reaffirmation that he was really the only guy that Jack truly loved. As for any 'internalized homophobia', REVISING THIS PART OF MY POST: after reading ClancyPants posts I think Clancy was right about Ennis tamping down his gay nature all his life and absorbing the the societal veneers that had been layered on during his childhood. I truly did gloss over seeing the little clues from the beginning of the film until the tent scene. (back to original posting)Ennis had a lively sense of self-preservation after seeing dead Earl, much livelier than Jack's. I think he was so shocked by Alma confronting him about the fishing creel because he suddenly knew that she knew his secret and that if she blabbed she could get him killed. He knows he isn't on the best terms with her and it scares the bejesus out of him. Anyway, even though he tells Jack he would kill him he would never do it. He's just thumping his chest and letting Jack know this topic is too painful for him to know the details. Maybe I'm just naive but I think if he had internalized homophobia, he would have marched out of the tent after Jack came on to him that first time, grabbed a big rock and smashed Jack's face. Jack somehow knew though, that he wasn't in that danger zone with Ennis. Which brings me to a question, was Ennis still intoxicated when Jack makes his play for him in the tent?
(by the way, I still haven't read all the posts on this board so if I'm just rehashing, sorry!)
Re: maybe I should say 'Spoiler'   
  by Dancing_Bear     (Fri Nov 24 2006 02:08:11 )   
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Arrgh, self-correction here.... I don't think that cowboy toy was something that Ennis whittled and Jack swiped, otherwise Ennis would have taken it home along with the shirts.
It's not. It's a toy from Jack's childhood.   
  by toycoon      (Sat Nov 25 2006 16:50:19 )   
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UPDATED Sat Nov 25 2006 18:59:08
I must say I'm vicariously enjoying your energy, Dancing Bear.
I've read your other posts and it's fun to feel the excitement in them.

Fast or slow, I just like the direction you're goin'.
Re: It's not. It's a toy from Jack's childhood.   
  by Dancing_Bear     (Sat Nov 25 2006 17:36:54 )   
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Oh thank you, I've really enjoyed your insightful posts too, everybody's in fact. I've learned so much about what things to look for in the movie from everyone's contributions, now I'm considering hooking up my tv (13", darn) to a stereo receiver and more powerful speakers so I can really crank up the volume and hear all those faint phrases you guys say you can hear Ennis whispering to Jack, such as "Later..." and "C'mere!". I see the subtitles but I don't always hear so well and I haven't caught those yet. I've been a huge fan of Heath Ledger for awhile now (I always find his performance so genuine and incredible, no matter what the movie itself turns out to be) and I only first saw Brokeback last week... I think I was afraid to see it because I heard it was grim. But no words can really describe the feelings you come away with after seeing this film, and it has taken hold of me much as it has with the people on this board! )
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by mutton-5     (Sat Nov 25 2006 17:41:05 )   
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poor ennis, living 2 lives, the one life faithful and true to his love for jack. his quick temper, you know. he threatens jack, if he comes to find it were true about other men in jack's life.
Re: What did Ennis mean...'if I should come to know them'   
  by Dancing_Bear     (Sat Nov 25 2006 21:36:13 )   
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Er, in my wordy exposition above I said "Jack sincerely says "I wish I knew how to quit you!" - but no, I am actually convinced it was INSINCERE, he was only saying that to get some kind of reaction from Ennis, some affirmation of love, which he badly needed. When he complains that seeing Ennis is like trying to see the Pope, that's a plain cry for reassurance that Ennis still cares as much for him as ever. By this time Ennis is well and truly paranoid, he has already been wondering if Alma ever blabbed, and he is supersensitive to any hint from the people around him that there's any question about his sexual preferences. So it may well be that it's much much harder for Jack to get together with him these last few years of their relationship, and it may have been many a time Ennis has put him off because of having to make money to pay the childcare payments.