Hidden Meaning in 'Husbands don't never wanna dance with their wives'? -
by TheDozyEmbrace 16 hours ago (Sun Mar 18 2007 11:30:19 )
Hidden Meaning in 'Husbands don't never wanna dance with their wives'? --- by brb50 --- 1 of 2
by - brb50 (Thu Feb 23 2006 19:17:44 )
I'm curious at Laureen's look at Jack when she says this. It seemed to indicate that there were undertones between her and Jack, like maybe she was implying something? Plus, Jack's, "I don't know, never gave it much thought" in brushing her off, and then immediately asking the other woman to dance? What was up with this? Any thoughts?
by - swt1962 (Thu Feb 23 2006 19:22:56 )
The grass is always greener...
by - VirginiaGal (Thu Feb 23 2006 20:36:38 )
I thought that was so rude of Jack to do that--ask the other woman to dance. Such a slap in Lureen's face. And then the whole time he was dancing with her and she was yapping and he had that smile on his face; maybe he DID have an affair with her and not Randall!
by - battlestar-fanatica (Thu Feb 23 2006 20:40:01 )
i guess jack was tired of Lureen and wanted to trade her bitchiness for LaShawn's yapping =)
by - the_snake152 (Thu Feb 23 2006 20:45:14 )
There was an interesting thread on here sometime backed that talked about the positioning of the camera at the time that he asked LeShawn to dance. It has been thought that he asked Randall to dance(then quickly looked at LeShawn), of course he wouldn't have danced with Randall, but was giving him some sort of hint. Does anyone else remember this thread?
by - VirginiaGal (Thu Feb 23 2006 20:46:59 )
but it does, indeed, look that way.
by - wtbgirl (Thu Feb 23 2006 20:50:52 )
UPDATED Thu Feb 23 2006 20:59:33
Jack sums up the situation with Lureen with his "phone it in" comment to Ennis. Clearly they are no longer sleeping together let alone dancing together. The significance is that the first night that Jack and Lureen were together they DID in fact dance, with Lureen giving Jack the moon-in-the-star-eyes-look to Jack while they danced. Fast forward 15 years or so and we have a VERY different portrait.
We don't see Lureen's pain as much as we see Alma's. Lureen's pain and bitterness over her increasingly loveless and sexless marriage mainfests itself via her increasingly brittle and bleached hair, and her becoming a "hard" business woman. She is a less sympathetic character ONLY in that we don't really get a chance to see her pain in all of this, but I think the "no dancing" comment is Ang Lee's way of us reminding us that Lureen's own hopes and desires for love were thwarted as well.
by - typhonblue (Thu Feb 23 2006 20:56:42 )
I never really got the "Lureen == SPAWN OF SATAN BITCH FROM HELL" angle.
I liked her. I thought she knew and she was basically teasing him about it in that situation. Lureen may have been a hard business woman, but she seemed pretty relaxed in her personal life, just letting things fall where they may. In some instances that could be considered a bad thing re: their son, but in others maybe she truly accepted Jack and what he needed.
by - balrog_ressurected_again (Thu Feb 23 2006 21:36:51 )
I felt Jack was further regaining his masculinity. He has been slowed castrated by this Delilah he married and by her father. Starting with her female on top thing in the backseat of Daddies Thunderbird.
Lureen was positioning herself as queen of the barn dance here. First she made sure the table knew she was Kappa Phi which outranked LaShawn's DeltaTri in sorority status.
Then her tone to Jack asking the question was to put him on the spot, make him uncomfortable and squirm. Jack was having none of it and answered with a tone of "your question is beneath me".
Then he imediately asks LaShawn to dance - remember she has low status now, he deliberately chooses the less desirable female to dance with.
He has just flipped Lureen off. He just sent Lureen a big ole' middle finger.
by - Flickfan-3 (Fri Feb 24 2006 07:31:57 )
yes--I was one of the posters who thought a wider shot would have shown that Jack was looking at Randall when he asks that question--remember there is no name attached to it--and that is why Randall kind of jumps--since he has been giving Jack the eye and vice versa probably since Jack and Lureen picked them up on the side of the road---the whole point of Jack dancing with LeShawn is that it gives RANDALL the opportunity to WATCH JACK'S PRETTY BUNS while pretending to watch his wife waltzing around the floor...this is Jack's way of saying "See how cute I am..." trolling for Randall's interest...and Randall snaps up the lure later on when they are outside on the bench...
by - Flickfan-3 (Fri Feb 24 2006 07:34:58 )
check out my post in response to someone earlier--think while Jack's dancing with LaShawn may be an insult to Lureen and some of your interpretations are valid, I think Jack's purpose served a different desire...
by - latjoremekeed (Fri Feb 24 2006 08:07:16 )
UPDATED Fri Feb 24 2006 08:09:31
I'm with everybody. I think Lureen understands, possibly subconsciously, about Jack's sexual orientation (by the end of the movie, she is aware of it consciously -- hence the little squeaks on the phone). Certainly she knows her marriage is less than satisfying sexually. So her remark is a veiled way to express frustration about that -- just as LaShawn's chattiness is a sign of her own marital frustration (as is WHAT LaShawn chats about; note how she repeatedly disparages Randall, his dancing prowess and earning power).
Jack asking LaShawn to dance is a retort to Lureen, but ALSO a way of sending a subtle message to Randall, of the sort the two keep exchanging throughout the evening.
Another great line is the one about women powdering their noses. Why would they do that just to go home and go to bed? Nothing happening there, that's for sure.
The beauty of this scene, as usual, lies in its understatedness. Without anybody saying anything directly about what's going on, we viewers can fully understand how the plot has just advanced.
by - terryhall2 (Fri Feb 24 2006 08:22:06 )
I think the statement of Lureen's gives a big clue, subconsciously, to Randall that Jack might not be interested in ladies.
by - stitchbuffymoulinfan (Fri Feb 24 2006 08:26:57 )
Another great line is the one about women powdering their noses. Why would they do that just to go home and go to bed? Nothing happening there, that's for sure
What do you mean? I have never thought too hard about this line - is there some hidden meaning to it?
As for the other scene, I think Jack was trying to defy Lureen in a way. I will have to look at his supposed eye contact with Randall next time.
by - latjoremekeed (Fri Feb 24 2006 08:41:32 )
UPDATED Fri Feb 24 2006 08:42:28
I read it as another line, like Lureen's husband dancing line, that suggests something about Jack and Lureen's marital life. I don't mean Jack was saying it consciously as a cue to Randall or anything like that. It's more like a literary touch or perhaps, like Lureen's remark, suggests unconscious meaning. He says it's silly for wives to powder their noses just before going home and going to bed. With their husbands, supposedly. Why bother to pretty themselves up just for that?
by - bing-57 (Fri Feb 24 2006 09:14:24 )
> a wider shot would have shown that Jack was looking at Randall when he asks that question
Wow. I thought I was the only one who thought that. I was definitely convinced that Jack was looking at Randall when he said that. I don't think a wider shot is needed to show that.
I expected him to turn it into a joke or something if Randall had reacted.
I do think that Randall noticed that Jack was looking at him and that's what prompted the later invitation to "go fishing."
by - RobertPlant (Fri Feb 24 2006 09:40:20 )
Jack asking LaShawn to dance is a retort to Lureen, but ALSO a way of sending a subtle message to Randall, of the sort the two keep exchanging throughout the evening.
I "like" the way he ignores Lureen. When she speaks, he's shaking ash off his jacket. Apparently he's not hearing Lureen, infact she has to touch him to get his attention. But at that point Jack, turning his back on Lureen (like she doesn't exist at all), looks at LaShawn/Randall and asks for dancing..
by - Flickfan-3 (Fri Feb 24 2006 09:50:01 )
isn't their dialogue another signal that these guys are gay---the question of why a woman would make herself pretty before going home with her husband just shows that there IS no allure coming from that side of the bed...nothing the women can do will light that spark...and the irony is that they don't have a clue that LaShawn and Lureen could be talking about the guys just like they are talking about the women---that going to "power their noses" is just an excuse for having some privacy to talk about things with someone of a like mindset--
if Randall/Jack was not interested in Jack/Randall, he would have found several things to do beside sit on the bench and make/consider that offer ... the thing I do think is interesting that is part of background in this scene is how they came to meet and what that might foreshadow about Ennis's perception of Jack's death--
I don't think Jack was gay bashed--but the idea that Jack would stop to help someone stranded on the road and maybe make a play for him thnking he had a similar orientation is set up by Jack stopping for Randall and LaShawn and definitely finding someone who has the same interests that he does--and really how unlikely would that be---pretty unlikely to my way of thinking...
McMurtry and Ossana did a great job of taking that one or two lines in Proulx's story and adding great deal of depth, ambiguity, and character insight in their adaptation...
by - brb50 (Fri Feb 24 2006 11:16:26 )
Wow, thanks for the interesting discussion guys! I'm glad I was able to bring something to this amazing post. Keep it up!
by - balrog_ressurected_again (Fri Feb 24 2006 11:43:33 )
What I got out of the bench scene was that Jack was kinda clubbed over the head by Randall.
Ole' Randall was the one with gaydar here and he was moving in on something he sees and likes. No mating dance for Randall. Direct, but said in a way such that IF he mistaken, he could claim a misunderstanding.
This was one of the most masterful propositions I've ever seen. Jack was all gulps, and wide-eyed looks. The only thing missing was his jaw hanging open. He didn't dare look at Randall and yet Randall looked directly at him.
That initial exchange of glances was Randall figuring Jack out while Jack was put on notice that this guy across the table was someone to reckon with. I don't beleive Jack suspected a thing.
ANd of course , could the both of them have sat with their legs any farther apart on that bench? You just knew something sexual was about to go down by the way they were sitting.
by - MaryFanatic (Fri Feb 24 2006 11:53:07 )
the reason why jack told ennis he was having an affair with a woman had to due with the fact that he knew ennis would have been hurt.it's probable that he was referring to randall but changed his gender while talking to ennis
by - the_snake152 (Fri Feb 24 2006 12:00:40 )
What is mentioned of LeShawn and Randall in the short story?
by - VirginiaGal (Fri Feb 24 2006 20:12:51 )
I hate to tell you this, Jack F. Twist, but that's just a euphemism for peeing!!
by - VirginiaGal (Fri Feb 24 2006 20:15:46 )
Not a word, if I'm not mistaken. Jack just tells Ennis he has a thing going with a ranch foreman's wife.
by - BlueMelon (Fri Feb 24 2006 20:55:13 )
About Lureen, I don't know if someone said this or not but I think alot of people do not look beneath the surface with her. I don't think she was the "bitch from hell." I think she loved Jack and I think that they were friends. I think that, as much as he was able to be, he was a good to her and tried to be a good husband. And I think she understood him. I think that's why they could stay married for such a long time. I think she knew him, really knew him, knew about him with men and knew he'd been in love once on Brokeback. Jack was too open a person for him to hide himself from her for 15 years.
So why would she stay with him? I think because in the end they were friends in a way that Alma and Ennis had never been friends. They were more companions to each other than passionate lovers and Lureen settled for that even though it didn't make her truly happy. Think about the times we see them together. It is obvious that Jack does not love her but it is also obvious that he treats her well, as best he can. There are very subtle things during the movie that indicate this. The way he touches her arm when he turns the TV off before the confrontation with his father in law. The way he backs her up with their son. The way he makes sure to kiss her before he leaves on a trip. Despite his lack of passion for her, he makes sure to respect her. That's why the scene at the dance seems so odd but if you think about it in another light not odd at all. Here he's sitting across from this man who's basically staring into his eyes, giving him a subtle hint that he's interested. Lureen and this woman are talking and he's pretty bored but he's gotta get out of the situation. I don't think Jack really wants to disrespect Lureen by having this eye thing with a stranger so he dances with the wife, maybe intending for Randall to dance with Lureen. I personally think Lureen is playfully bating him and he's playing along with the joke. In the end I think he has a comradely love for her and that's why when Randall makes a pass, he is so stiff. Having an affair with this man is too close to home. I mean, of the two of them, Jack has alot less ties to Lureen than Ennis does to Alma but it's the fact that they are friends and get along that keeps him with her. I don't think anything else would have. He, unlike Ennis, doesn't mind leaving.
So we get to the real sticking point - the deceased phone call with Ennis. Maybe I completely misread Lureen but she seemed like a tough woman who's desperately trying to hide her pain. Unlike Alma, she's strong, rugged, she's not going to come right out and sob on the phone. Especially because she probably knew all about Jack's double life, she's no dummy, and correctly placed Ennis in it. I think, towards the end of the call, when they talk about Brokeback she realizes that this is probably the love of Jack's life. Her eyes tear up and there is something very subtle in her eyes that looks to me like "It's you." She actually has to choke back tears, more like bite down tears because like I said she's tough. She's not going to cry on the phone with the man that Jack loved above her and his family. But even she has a heart and that's why she tells Ennis to visit Jack's parents, it's a gift. Why doesn't anybody see that? She sent him there because she knew who Ennis was and she knew that Jack would want his ashes to be as close to Ennis as possible. She also knew that she couldn't meet him, not face to face, she wasn't that strong. But she could make sure that Jack got what he wanted in the end. Her coldness is a facade and that's why Ang showed her eyes and the tears that Ennis cannot hear on the phone. The tears that she won't even let fall. That's the beauty of the film. Not the somewhat overdone Heaths and Michelles but the subtle Jake and Anne. Jake's drive away and the look on his face and the shift in his car seat is so much more moving than Heath's hitting the wall. It just seems like Jack and Lureen's pain is beyond letting tears fall and having blow ups and hitting people. It's like they know the tears won't help the situation. They are the quiet pain to Ennis and Alma's explosion.
I guess it's pretty obvious that I don't think Lureen killed Jack or had him killed. Why would she kill him? She had 16 years to kill him for his transgressions if that's what she wanted. Her father had 16 years to kill him for being gay if he even knew. She ran the business, her father had the money, she didn't really need to off Jack. She could have divorced him easy as pie. I doubt he would have put up much of fight (Which goes back to my original thought that they were companions and friends). No, I'm pretty sure it was a hate crime and she knew it but she's not going to tell every Tom, Dick and Harry who calls on the phone.
by - delalluvia (Tue Mar 14 2006 21:30:53 )
UPDATED Tue Mar 14 2006 21:31:42
I've talked to some people about that scene and finally had to say, "Lureen wasn't talking about dancing."
Just to see glazed eyes clear up and people go 'Ohhhhhh...'
Jack cut Lureen off from sex a long time ago and she's very sarcastic in her tone when she asks Jack 'Why do you suppose that is?" He fluffs her off then promptly asks LaShawn to dance, hinting to Lureen that SHE is who he's bored with, that's why they don't 'dance', but he's MORE than willing to 'dance' with another woman.
He both slams Lureen back for the comment and further disguises his gay nature by an overtly heterosexual action.
The chastened look on Lureen's face as they get up to dance convinces me that she bought it.
by - Wiggitywiggity (Wed Mar 15 2006 22:53:01 )
Wow Bluemelon...u summed up my thoughts perfectly. I don't think Laureen was a bitch at all. She was tough and assertative who genuinely did care for Jack, but was obviously frustrated from their sexless marriage. I think people tend to assume that a woman who doesn't cry, remains tough and assertative in the worst of times is a bitch, unfortunately...hopefully a stereotype that can be shattered in the future.
"I felt Jack was further regaining his masculinity. He has been slowed castrated by this Delilah he married and by her father. Starting with her female on top thing in the backseat of Daddies Thunderbird."
Since when does having a dominant and assertative female kills a man's masculinity?
..(unless of course he already has insecurities)
If you want to argue it along that line, we could say that Jack bottoming for Ennis would have 'castrated' his masculinity much further, than having Laureen playing rodeo on him.
I really don't understand why people have such black and white, subjective views in regards to masculinity and feminitity...I was kinda hoping that brokeback mountain may have broken those stereotypes.
by - taj_e (Mon Apr 10 2006 10:49:11 )
I find it funny though. I would do the same perhaps lol
To me Jack was replying for both himself and Randall as a joke and of course to get away from all the non-stop talking (only to end up with LaShawn)
Another thread was discussing this, as if Jack was flirting with Randall (which I disagree). Randall and LaShawn was pretty much like Ennis and Jack. And ironi was, Jack had always felt he was not part of the family when in fact, Lureen was never part of his
