Was Jack asking RANDALL to dance...?? -- by BannerHill

[TOoP/Bruce]

Was Jack asking RANDALL to dance...??   
  by BannerHill     (Sat Apr 1 2006 17:11:12 )   
   
UPDATED Mon Apr 3 2006 23:25:55
When they are all sitting together at the dance, Jack asks LaShawn to dance. I wonder if he was kind of flirting with Randal and purposefully asking neither one of them in particular but LaShawn assumed that she was the one being asked.

After seeing it nine times, I only just now thought of this.

We see Jack asking the question, but we cut to RANDALL'S startled reaction, then his quick turn left to his wife.

Did Jack instigate Randall's subsequent proposition?


Hmmmm?


I always felt that Randall's come-on seemed to come out of thin air. This would explain a lot.



"Hey Ennis, do you know someone named 'Jack'?"

Re: I wonder if Jack was asking RANDAL to dance...   
  by caoilfhionn     (Sat Apr 1 2006 19:26:05 )   
   
it took reading a lot of posts about the eye contact between jack and randall, as well as seeing the movie a couple of times, but i think i got it now. i think you are right that YES he was flirting with randall.

i'm not sure, but i wonder if what lureen was saying when she said to jack, "why don't husbands ever seem to want to dance with their wives?" if she was meaning sex instead of dancing.

randall's ok, but i got so upset when he and jack were checking each other out. no one could replace ennis!!

do you think that jack was used to having guys come on to him? he seemed to be shocked when randall asked him to go "fishing."

Re: I wonder if Jack was asking RANDAL to dance...   
  by OBsessedwithorli1     (Sat Apr 1 2006 19:31:11 )   

I didn't see any eye contact. In fact, I thought Jack went out of his way to avoid eye contact with Randall. I certainly don't thin Jack was flirting with Randall or asking him to dance. But you question is very compelling, and I'll watch this scene with particular interest when I get the DVD.

Re: I wonder if Jack was asking RANDAL to dance...   
  by BannerHill     (Sun Apr 2 2006 11:35:32 )   
   
Next time you see it, look for the reaction to Jacks "Wanna dance" question. We see Randall's suprised reaction, then his quick turn to the left for his wife's reaction. I wonder who Jack was directiong his question to?





"Hey Ennis, do you know someone named 'Jack'?"

Re: I wonder if Jack was asking RANDAL to dance...   
  by Pursy     (Sun Apr 2 2006 11:53:29 )   

Jack looked directly into Randall's eyes when asking to dance. They both seemed to understand as he looks at his wife to dance with Jack.

"We die only once, and for such a long time."~Molière~

Re: I wonder if Jack was asking RANDAL to dance...   
  by BannerHill     (Sun Apr 2 2006 11:58:58 )   
   
Really? Are you sure?

That would make a whole lot more sense. I always thought Randall's approach outside seem unprecedented.



"Hey Ennis, do you know someone named 'Jack'?"

Re: I wonder if Jack was asking RANDAL to dance...   
  by Front-Ranger     (Sun Apr 2 2006 12:11:29 )   
   
The camera work makes it ambiguous. It's almost like Ang and Prieto were plotting how they could start discussions, and they did. And now a question for you, Banner-Hill. Wanna dance?
Front-Ranger
"There ain't no reins on this one."

Re: I wonder if Jack was asking RANDAL to dance...   
  by amandazehnder     (Sun Apr 2 2006 12:14:08 )   
   
Yes, I definitely think Jack was deliberately making eye contact with Randall but hoping and assuming that the women will assume that he's talking to Randall's wife. And, I do think it was a sort or reckless and rebellious response to Lureen's statement.

I think this scene is meant to show Jack's growing frustration and his increasing willingness to take risks in order to find a way to make it through the long stretches of time between his trips with Ennis. I love that he doesn't answer Randall when he asks Jack to go away with him. You can just see the wheels in Jack's mind calculating what this would mean for his relationship to Ennis, etc.

Re: I wonder if Jack was asking RANDAL to dance...   
  by BannerHill     (Mon Apr 3 2006 07:22:29 )   
   
This is a part of the story that I did not 'get' until just now. It is an important missing part. I guess Jack aswers Lureens question pretty good? " Why is it that men NEVER seem to want to dance with their own wifes?"

hmmmmm



"Hey Ennis, do you know someone named 'Jack'?"

Re: I wonder if Jack was asking RANDAL to dance...   
  by taj_e     (Mon Apr 3 2006 08:19:51 )   
   
amandazehnder
In my opinion it was more a response to the women non-stop talking. Randall might thought about the same, however it is not his style
I see the scene stressed on Randall's character. Randall was clearly surprised and I believed he sensed that Jack was really testing him as we can see later when he hinted on Jack about getting away together. Jack to me was calculating on Randall's intention (although I do think he also thought about Ennis)
He didn't reply then, but am pretty sure he did later on (after all they have become acquainted then)

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0388795/board/thread/38161424?d=38161424#38161424

Re: I wonder if Jack was asking RANDAL to dance...   
  by j01560403     (Thu Apr 20 2006 23:23:54 )   
   
The look on Jack's face when Randall suggested getting away for some fishing makes me think that he is thinking "if only it were Ennis doing the asking". I think he looks very sad in that shot.

Re: I wonder if Jack was asking RANDAL to dance...   
  by Lee_Holloway     (Sat Apr 22 2006 02:03:23 )   
   
'I definitely think Jack was deliberately making eye contact with Randall but hoping and assuming that the women will assume that he's talking to Randall's wife. And, I do think it was a sort or reckless and rebellious response to Lureen's statement.

I think this scene is meant to show Jack's growing frustration and his increasing willingness to take risks in order to find a way to make it through the long stretches of time between his trips with Ennis. I love that he doesn't answer Randall when he asks Jack to go away with him.'


Great observations



'I'm in my tree, I'm talking to the Dixie Chicks and they're making me feel better.'

Re: I wonder if Jack was asking RANDAL to dance...   
  by nedrazeall     (Wed Apr 5 2006 06:41:13 )   
   
I've only seen it once and I had thought that Jack was being silly and asking Randall to dance and that his wife just assumed he was asking her.

----
I've got something to say. It's better to burn out than to fade away!

Re: I wonder if Jack was asking RANDAL to dance...   
  by toycoon      (Fri Apr 14 2006 11:09:40 )   
   
I think Randall asking Jack to go fishing echos in Jack's mind because he and Ennis have been lying about going fishing for so long that suggesting to go fishing almost is code for "let's go fool around on our wives"

Re: I wonder if Jack was asking RANDAL to dance...   
  by riverviewantique     (Fri Apr 14 2006 11:40:42 )   
   
>he seemed to be shocked when randall asked him to go "fishing." < I think Jack loved Ennis and only Ennis at that time . Randall wasnt very good looking, Jack had no interest in randall at this point, they had just met at this point. Also He asked lashawn to dance then looked at Randall and said do you mind and randall said no not at all.

Re: I wonder if Jack was asking RANDAL to dance...   
  by riverviewantique     (Fri Apr 14 2006 11:57:04 )   
   
wow toycoon your do some fishing line from randall was right on!! I never thought of that before thanks

Re: I wonder if Jack was asking RANDAL to dance...   
  by the_Poppuns      (Mon Apr 3 2006 08:23:28 )   

Hey, that's not a bad idea. I always thought Jack was annoyed with Randall at that point, but you could be right. When I get the movie home I'm going to look for that.

That's why you never get outta the tree.

Re: I wonder if Jack was asking RANDAL to dance...   
  by Rontrigger     (Mon Apr 3 2006 08:44:00 )   
   
We'll probably need the DVD to verify this, but there's no doubt in my mind that when Jack asked "Wanna dance?" he was looking directly at LaShawn at that moment.

Jack and Randall had definitely made eye contact a few moments before, when LaShawn was yakking (ye gods!) about Randall getting the foreman's job at Roy Taylor's ranch. But they weren't looking at each other when Jack asked his question.

Yes, Randall is surprised when he shoots that look at LaShawn, but I think he's just caught off-guard by Jack's sudden invitation to his wife. And you notice that Jack asked him if he minded--he didn't (who wouldn't want to be LaShawn-free for a few minutes?), but "cowboy etiquette" requires that Jack verify that.

Remember also that those two couples didn't know each other very well. If they had and Lureen had made that crack about husbands never wanting to dance with their wives, Jack could have asked Randall to dance as a joke, and they all would have gotten it. He couldn't possibly have done that with a guy he had just met.

"You can't have Ennis without Jack."--Annie Proulx

Re: I wonder if Jack was asking RANDAL to dance...   
  by seaweed727     (Mon Apr 3 2006 10:35:46 )   
   
BannerHill,

I've been itching to enter into this discussion. From the first time I viewed the movie I believed that Jack was directing his dance question towards Randal, it struck me as bold and playfull. I could sense the confusion in Randall immediately, but it was resolved quickly with Jack's looking directly at Lashawn.

I'm wondering if it wasn't Jack being a bit of a smart ass, having some fun at Lureen's expense and making the joke between he and Randall. It was obvious that Lashawn never picked up on the gag.

When Randall [perhaps emboldened by Jack's teasing] made his approach to Jack outside , with a suggestion of going out fishing at the bosses camp, I almost got the impression that Jack was surprised. Jack certainly didn't look like he was ready to jump at the chance, rather he seemed more introspective or thougtfull, as if he were having a flashback to times with Ennis.

Anyhow.... Randall didn't do much for me anyhow, I never liked him in the first place. Jack was way too good for him and he'd never come within miles of Ennis del Mar.... IMHO.

Thanks for your thread !


"I got a boy. Eight months old.... Smiles a lot."

Re: I wonder if Jack was asking RANDAL to dance...   
  by Front-Ranger     (Mon Apr 3 2006 12:37:39 )   
   
And another thing that would have emboldened Randall is when Jack said "Why would a woman. . .powder her nose just to go home & go to bed?" Meaning, there isn't any reason for her to look good for him. In fact, during this whole scene, the foursome has a lot of questions that are either not answered or brushed off, as if they are clueless to the ways of women/men. And then there's LaShawn who is a whole different story. I wonder if she was added to the script in order to bring up the word quota, which was deficient because of having Ennis as a character.  But it's not inconceivable that Jack would be attracted to the motor mouth, having been deprived by Ennis all those years.

Front-Ranger
"There ain't no reins on this one."

Re: I wonder if Jack was asking RANDAL to dance...   
  by fwellman     (Mon Apr 3 2006 19:00:26 )   

My take on the scene was Randall was flirting with Jack and by Jack asking Randall's wife to dance he was telling him and his wife to lay off. I feel the in the outside scene Jack wanted to be gone.

IN DANTE'S 11TH CIRCLE ALSO CALLED OHIO

Re: I wonder if Jack was asking RANDAL to dance...   
  by taj_e     (Tue Apr 4 2006 07:03:30 )   
   
UPDATED Tue Apr 4 2006 07:12:08
I've given much thought on this
And it became clearer that it was Randall who made the move all along
Randall was definitely hitting on Jack
I occurs to me that it probably never happened, any guy making their first move and it must have surprised Jack (the looks on his face when Randall invited him)
Randall was very similar to Ennis character, and the last person Jack would 'play around with' would be that character itself
From the dance offer made to LaShawn (or probably the whole time they were inside), Randall was just another 'straight' man to Jack

***And then there's LaShawn who is a whole different story. I wonder if she was added to the script in order to bring up the word quota, which was deficient because of having Ennis as a character. But it's not inconceivable that Jack would be attracted to the motor mouth, having been deprived by Ennis all those years***

Come to think about it, Randall and LaShawn was pretty much like Ennis and Jack.
Jack the talkative. It reminds me during their first few days, when all was about Jack (Ennis mentioned Alma and Jack wasn't even listening but whine and whine) And I must say, I kinda agree with the word quota lol

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0388795/board/thread/38161424?d=38161424#38161424

Re: Randall, the Ennis, Jack....   
  by taj_e     (Tue Apr 4 2006 07:10:35 )   
   
UPDATED Tue Apr 4 2006 07:46:13
...wished he would be
And probably, that's why on one spring, Jack told his parents about 'Randall'
Randall (probably with an advantage of 'out of poverty') was able to take the risk Ennis couldn't make/take

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0388795/board/thread/38161424?d=38161424#38161424

Re: I wonder if Jack was asking RANDAL to dance...   
  by huskygirl125     (Wed May 31 2006 19:35:30 )   

Has anyone noticed that later on in the movie when Ennis is at Jacks house and is talking with Jacks dad that his dad says something about Jack saying that he and Ennis were gonna come up there and whip the ranch into shape then says that some other guy was gonna LEAVE HIS WIFE and come up there. Maybe this other guy was Randal. just a thought

Re: I wonder if Jack was asking RANDAL to dance...   
  by agrawal_alka     (Thu Jun 1 2006 03:18:13 )   
   
UPDATED Thu Jun 1 2006 03:57:26
The first time I saw this scene I saw what the original post said: that Jack seems to be looking at Randall when asking the question, Randall looks startled, and both of them quickly shift to look at LaShawn. Obviously he and Randall weren't actually going to dance together and LaShawn assumed he was asking her, which provided a good cover.

The first time I saw the scene outside with Randall's come-on, I felt sad for Jack: finally a man is coming on to him after so many years chasing Ennis. The talk of going fishing must have been painful and reminded him of his unsatisfactory situation with Ennis. But how long could he keep living like that? So it seems he may have decided to move on and settled for second best and what was available, the way he settled for marrying a woman and selling farm equipment and having a comfortable life instead of being a poor rodeo cowboy, rather than what he really wanted to do. In the story Jack said that nothing in his life had worked out the way he wanted, and Jack's father talks about how Jack's ideas never come to pass. (Very, very sad...I think many people can relate to this.) And taking the risk of starting up a local relationship where he could have been more easily discovered may have led to his death (if we believe he was murdered).

And yes, I do believe Jack was talking about Randall to his family. Jack's father tells Ennis about the "other fella" in the story too and this is why Randall is introduced in the movie.

Re: I wonder if Jack was asking RANDAL to dance...   
  by prowlamongus     (Mon Apr 3 2006 19:02:54 )   
   
I think he was.. he seemed to be looking at him, and there was a slight double take before the wife spoke up

Re: I wonder if Jack was asking RANDAL to dance...   
  by NewHorizons37     (Mon Apr 3 2006 19:20:08 )   
   
UPDATED Mon Apr 3 2006 19:20:53
It was suggested on another thread that Jack's dancing with LaShawn was done to provide Randall a way to check Jack out without attracting notice. Remember that before this, Jack and Randall are shown exchanging eye contact across the table. I think the main reason Jack did it was to stick it to Lureen. But it has the added benefit of letting Randall watch him. It's safe, because it would be natural for Randall to watch his wife dancing with another man; nobody would guess that when he watches that couple dance, he is actually checking out the man his wife is with.

This may be why Randall was able to be so bold later. It's clear to me it is a proposition. The conversation is between two men who met only hours before and are waiting for their wives. It starts out with small talk typical between men who don't know each other well: first some grumbling about their wives why do women powder their nose. . ., can't get a word in edgewise with LaShawn,
then work you'll like working for Roy Taylor, yeah he's a good old boy,
to suddenly out of nowhere:
He says I can use his cabin whenever I want -- we should go there sometime. That's not small talk any more.

Re: I wonder if Jack was asking RANDAL to dance...   
  by amandazehnder     (Mon Apr 3 2006 20:09:33 )   
   
-"I'm wondering if it wasn't Jack being a bit of a smart ass, having some fun at Lureen's expense and making the joke between he and Randall."

I definitely agree with this idea. I also agree that he was showing off for Randall by dancing with LaShawn... Like he used to show off on his horse for Ennis (see the "horse-spinning" thread for more on that).

Re: I wonder if Jack was asking RANDAL to dance...   
  by jakecruise11     (Mon Apr 3 2006 20:14:38 )   

That is exactly what I thought the second time I saw it. I really felt they were exchanging eye contact and a definate vibe there.

Re: I wonder if Jack was asking RANDAL to dance...   
  by starboardlight     (Mon Apr 3 2006 20:27:18 )   
   
with that observation, the whole conversation fell into place for me. his asking Randall to dance, was his not so subtle answer to Lureen's question.






Re: I wonder if Jack was asking RANDAL to dance...   
  by crissttigaldames     (Mon Apr 3 2006 21:00:01 )   

"I do think it was a sort or reckless and rebellious response to Lureen's statement.

I think this scene is meant to show Jack's growing frustration and his increasing willingness to take risks in order to find a way to make it through the long stretches of time between his trips with Ennis. I love that he doesn't answer Randall when he asks Jack to go away with him. You can just see the wheels in Jack's mind calculating what this would mean for his relationship to Ennis, etc."

That's a very interesting idea. And it would make sense with Laureen sort of knowing that Jack was gay and had a lover (I think there are many things in the film that hint to that: her frustration, her talk with Ennis). It could be considered that she was in fact sort of talking about Jack being gay and that that was his answer, though maybe is just going to far to guess that.

Anyway, when I saw the film (just once) it gave me the impresion that it was Randall who was clearly flirting with Jack, and that Jack looked slightly uncomfortable.

"The Love you take is equal to the Love you make" The Beatles.

Re: I wonder if Jack was asking RANDAL to dance...   
  by BannerHill     (Mon Apr 3 2006 23:27:55 )   
   
I am beginging to think that this is the case, especially after the great Starboardlight chimed in.

I should probably study the script.



"Hey Ennis, do you know someone named 'Jack'?"

Re: I wonder if Jack was asking RANDAL to dance...   
  by catglith     (Tue Apr 4 2006 07:39:00 )   
   
UPDATED Fri Apr 21 2006 05:43:54
This was a really uncomfortable scene to watch. I think it's quite clear they were flirting. Throughout the scene i felt quite bad for Lureen (and LaShawn).

I don't know if anyone else felt like this, but part of me was really angry at Jack cos he was checking out and flirting with another guy that wasn't Ennis, but this other part of me felt so sorry for him. Like he was settling for second best out of frustration.
Jack must have felt so conflicted, a part of him wanting to go to the cabin with Randall to almost hurt Ennis, almost like 'well if you won't have me, someone else will'. But at the same time he must have felt so guilty, because even if Ennis was driving him mad, he knew Ennis would think he was cheating on him and betraying his trust and Jack loved Ennis so much, it must have been awful for him to have to do that. Jack must have felt so alone and desperate, and quite ashamed.
I think Jack had to be with Randall, not just to be satisifed sexually, but because it was a better and more convenient arrangement than Mexican hookers and it would have been good for Jack's fragile ego for someone to have come on to him.

Of course what makes this scene so sad is that it's the beginning of the end for Jack and Ennis' relationship. It shows how Jack had let go of hope for him and Ennis. Randall could offer Jack something that Ennis was incapable of, and something Jack needed. He was available, willing and close. Saying that though, i firmly believe that Randall was nothing more than a pale and poor Ennis substitute. Randall could only satisfy him physically. When Jack tells Ennis about the 'wife' (i.e. Randall) he's having an affair with, notice how he smiles, then stops, his face frozen, like he's reflecting on Randall. He then tells Ennis he misses him so much he can hardly stand it. Randall couldn't come close to Ennis, ever.

**Edit**

Up until very recently, i had always assumed that Jack and Randall had a relationship of some kind and that Jack 'quit on' Ennis, shifting his focus on Randall out of desperation after the final lake scene. But now i've changed my mind simply because there is NO PROOF that Jack and Randall had a relationship of any kind, or that Jack had 'quit on' Ennis (and i have a tendancy to believe the worst, lol). So looking at what i saw on the screen (i.e this scene, their final meeting, the phonecall, the talk with the Twist's, the shirts etc.) and what i know about the characters especially Jack, i can't see Jack giving up on Ennis AFTER THAT PARTICULAR MEETING (the final lake scene) and moving on to Randall. I won't elaborate here, i just wanted to clarify my interpretation of this scene has changed.

Re: I wonder if Jack was asking RANDAL to dance...   
  by BannerHill     (Tue Apr 4 2006 10:38:10 )   
   
Here is what I think happened. I think Jack and Randall had been flirting all evening in a very subtle way, of course. Lureen says " Why is it that men NEVER seem to want to dance with their wives?". Randall and Jack make eye contact and Jack says "Wanna dance?", and by the time LaShawn realizes that he is askeing her to dance, Jack is looking at her.

By asking Randall if he wants to dance, Jack is of course answering Lureen's question.

I could be wrong here, but the more I think about it......




"Hey Ennis, do you know someone named 'Jack'?"

Re: I wonder if Jack was asking RANDAL to dance...   
  by heydoozie     (Tue Apr 4 2006 11:56:50 )   
   
I caught the shift in Jack's gaze from Randall to LaShawn the fifth time I saw it, and it's become clearer with every viewing since (ten times now) that Jack was saying "Wanna dance?" to Randall. Defintly clearing the way for their next conversation.

Re: I wonder if Jack was asking RANDAL to dance...   
  by BannerHill     (Tue Apr 4 2006 11:58:20 )   

Well well well, Jack, what a clever boy. Took me a loooong time to figure that one out.





"Hey Ennis, do you know someone named 'Jack'?"

Re: I wonder if Jack was asking RANDAL to dance...   
  by tillerman-1     (Tue Apr 4 2006 15:56:48 )   
   
I've seen the movie several times and I didnt think Jack was making any moves towards Randall. I actually think that Jack didnt think much of him at all. When he asks LaShawn to dance it looked like he was just asking if it was okay with Randall and maybe trying to get away from Lureen who seemed to want to pick a fight. Later when they were sitting on the bench Jack seemed shocked when Randall suggested they go fishing. I just cant ( or wont ) believe that Jack had anything going with Randall.



* Sometimes life gets in the way of love *

Re: I wonder if Jack was asking RANDAL to dance...   
  by the_Poppuns      (Sun Apr 9 2006 21:12:40 )   

Yeah now that I've got it at home and could rewatch it. I think my first impression was the best. Jack was perturbed with Randall. Then later on the bench Jack seemed really uncomfortable when Randall blatantly hit on him. I just feel he gave in on the whole Randall thing. He didn't really want him but it was better than being alone.

Omigod! Is that Tim McGraw?!

[TOoP/Bruce]

Re: I wonder if Jack was asking RANDAL to dance...   
  by jshane2002      (Wed Apr 5 2006 20:51:59 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
by - catglith on Tue Apr 4 :

"Of course what makes this scene so sad is that it's the beginning of the end for Jack and Ennis' relationship. It shows how Jack had let go of hope for him and Ennis. Randall could offer Jack something that Ennis was incapable of, and something Jack needed. He was avaiable, willing and close. Saying that though, i firmly believe that Randall was nothing more than a pale and poor Ennis substitute."


Really good thread - I hadn't thought before how LaShawn is like Jack in the way he talks so much and Randall and Ennis are reticent. It does seem like Jack is reaching middle age compromises like having to let go of his fantasy of having Ennis in his "cow and calf operation" and Jack is more willing to settle for Randall in a similar role.


".. and then I met Randall here who's a "husbandry" major, well, like it or not, here I am!" - LaShawn

"I heard the divorce went through. Well, here I am!" -- Jack ( to Ennis )
Re: I wonder if Jack was asking RANDAL to dance...   
  by latjoremekeed     (Wed Apr 5 2006 21:13:42 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
I was surprised the first few times I saw the film that Randall came on to Jack outside on the bench -- how did he KNOW? -- until someone pointed out the eye contact thing and then I noticed it, too. Jack looks straight at Randall as he asks about the dance. Obviously Randall isn't going to say yes, and LaShawn immediately steps up to the plate, but the message has been sent.

I think this scene is really rich in subtle unstated signals: Lureen's initial comment about husbands not dancing with their wives. LaShawn's overtalkativeness, which feels like a desperate attempt to compensate for something missing. The many times LaShawn disparages Randall's manhood in some way. Jack wondering on the bench outside why wives would bother to powder their noses just to go home and go to bed (hell, no sense in trying to impress anybody THERE!).

Jack was flirting with Randall, but when Randall responds with the invitation to the cabin he freezes. A moral quandry: is he desperate enough to be unfaithful to Ennis? Of course Randall could never replace Ennis in Jack's heart, but is he frustrated enough to go for it anyway?

Apparently he was, judging from the lie he told Ennis about the rancher's wife, and then Mr. Twist's remark about Jack's latest idea for a ranching partner.

Incidentally, it's strange how even at the end of their time together, Jack and Ennis were still making a pretense to each other of being interested in women. Granted, Ennis didn't sound very enthusiastic telling Jack about putting the blocks to Cassie. But he immediately accepts Jack's story about his fling with the wife. Ennis doesn't object, knowing it can't be very serious, but still seems to believe that Jack is pursuing a woman, apparently still preferring to think of them both as ostensibly straight. And even Jack asks Ennis why he hasn't gotten remarried, as though that was to be expected.
Re: I wonder if Jack was asking RANDAL to dance...   
  by Lee_Holloway     (Wed Apr 19 2006 21:33:34 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
'Jack looks straight at Randall as he asks about the dance. Obviously Randall isn't going to say yes, and LaShawn immediately steps up to the plate, but the message has been sent.'


Bingo.

And as subtle as it may have been (so subtle many didn't even perceive it at all), I think there was definitely some energy/vibe going on between Randall and Jack at the table.......

I think any minor look of 'shock' Jack displays when Randall mentions the cabin is in reaction to the fact that Randall seems to be returning the 'pass'. There wasn't anything overtly 'affirmative' in his reaction to the 'wanna dance?' question (although it's clear he's caught off guard momentarily because Jack seemed to be addressing it to him and not Lashawn)

What moved me was the subtle sadness that Jack seems to be feeling after Randall offers the cabin invitation ~ Jake Gyllenhaal is great here ~ he's not excited or flirty at that point at all......

you can almost tell that he's sad because he really doesn't want to even be considering 'going away' with another man. As though by just entertaining the idea, he has to acknowledge his dissatisfaction with his relationship with Ennis.



'I'm in my tree, I'm talking to the Dixie Chicks, and they're making me feel better.'
Re: I wonder if Jack was asking RANDAL to dance...   
  by seaweed727     (Thu Jun 1 2006 07:42:56 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
Thanks for this Lee,

I've been feeling much the same way almost all along, have enjoyed the back and forth in the discussion as it helps to flush out our own thoughts.

Jack's sadness at the point where Randall makes his offer or proposition is striking as far as I'm concerned. You can read it in his face and in his eyes, like a heavy weight is there.



"I got a boy. Eight months old.... Smiles a lot."
Re: I wonder if Jack was asking RANDAL to dance...   
  by taj_e     (Fri Apr 7 2006 01:50:43 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
".. and then I met Randall here who's a "husbandry" major, well, like it or not, here I am!" - LaShawn

"I heard the divorce went through. Well, here I am!" -- Jack ( to Ennis )

Good one jshane

'I wish I knew how to quit BBM...'
Ennis' breakdown the last time they were together   
  by j01560403     (Thu Apr 20 2006 23:58:45 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
UPDATED Fri Apr 21 2006 00:02:16
Hello Catglith:

I don't know about anyone else, but it makes me dammed depressed to think that Jack did quit, or would quit on Ennis. The final lake scene was very dramatic, I mean their emotions were boiling over! Jack blew up at Ennis and told him the way it was. Poor old Ennis had a breakdown, the only time we see Ennis verbalizing his deepest feelings.

I still have not come to grips with all that it means, but I hate to think that either of them would have moved on from the other.

I have not been able to analyze Ennis' breakdown speech satisfactorily, I have not got it all figured out yet. (paraphrase) "Why don't you then? Why don't you just leave me be? You're the reason I'm like this, I'm nothing, I'm nowhere. I just can't stand it anymore."

Ennis never spoke his inner feelings like that before. What made him emote finally? Was it because of what Jack had just said to him? Or was it because he was torn up to find out that Jack would go with other men? (How come he does not care a whit that Jack fools around with the ranch foreman's wife?) What made Ennis finally explode? I don't see Ennis' words as a reply to Jack's speech. I mean:

(1) Jack has just told Ennis how he feels. (paraphrase) "we coulda had a life together, but you wouldn't. So all we got is Brokeback Mountain, that's all we got. And you say you will kill me for wanting something that I don't hardly never get. I don't get you Ennis Del Mar. I wish I knew how to quit you."

then

(2) Ennis breaks down with his speech. Does Ennis' speech 'speak' to Jack's speech?

Can somebody please explain this one to me?
[Post deleted]   
This message has been deleted by the poster
Re: Was Jack was asking RANDALL to dance...??   
  by amandazehnder     (Tue Apr 4 2006 17:17:40 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
-"Jack must have felt so alone and desperate, and quite ashamed."

Yes, I think this is what caused Jack to get so angry in the argument scene. Ennis accuses him of being unfaithful... but Jack doesn't WANT to be unfaithful. If Ennis would be with him full-time, it's just as clear as day that Jack would never look at another guy. At the same time, you get the feeling that Ennis feels like he's been making great personal sacrifices in order to be completely faithful to Jack and in order to facilitate his trips with Jack. They've been forced into an impossible position (all based on accommodating Ennis's fears really). Ennis wants to be with Jack permanently or "for as long as they can ride it" (as he says during their first camping trip) and he demands fidelity (clearly relationships with women don't really count... and are in fact part of Ennis's elaborate attempts to hide). Yet, he can't find the courage to actually be with Jack as a true partner.

I agree with the comment above that his face froze and he made the statement about missing Ennis so much that he could hardly stand it because he's realized that no other guy compares to Ennis for him. This is what comes out in the Lightning Flat scene too. When Jack's horrible Dad tells Ennis about the "other fellow" you see Ennis almost tear up (nostrils flare) and just at that moment Jack's Mom invites Ennis to go upstairs. She's wanting him to find those shirts to see that he really was Jack's true love. The 'other fellow' was nothing in comparison.
Re: Was Jack was asking RANDALL to dance...??   
  by mg501     (Tue Apr 4 2006 17:29:24 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
BannerHill..

I think that if Jack was hitting on Randal while they were all sitting together, he would have been quick to accept Randal's offer to "go fishing". So, personally, I don't think Jack was hitting on Randal at all.
Just an opinion.
Re: Was Jack was asking RANDALL to dance...??   
  by crissttigaldames     (Tue Apr 4 2006 20:41:15 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
I don't really think Jack was flirting... but the another guy was, and I would say he was considering it, and maybe flirtig just a litlle bit. Just returning a little the the looks.

It seems to me that there may have been some rumors about Jack being gay... and that's why the another guy asked his that so rapidly. That's also how Laureen may have suspected.

"The Love you take is equal to the Love you make" The Beatles.
Re: Was Jack was asking RANDALL to dance? No   
  by taj_e     (Wed Apr 5 2006 06:03:42 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
Bump
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0388795/board/thread/38161424?d=38161424#38161424
Re: Was Jack was asking RANDALL to dance...??   
  by santsa70     (Wed Apr 5 2006 06:12:11 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
I thought it was purposely shot in a way that made it very ambigious as to who Jack was trying to make eye contact with. It was wonderfully inventive.
Re: Was Jack was asking RANDALL to dance...??   
  by tillerman-1     (Wed Apr 5 2006 07:49:38 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
Sorry still dont think anything was going on with Randall. It might be just me but it would seem like to much of a relationship compared to the trips to Mexico and I just dont think Jack would do that to Ennis.
As for Jacks dad telling Ennis about the ranch forman I think he mentioned him because of the smile Ennis had when he heard how Jack use to talk about him. Jack may have mentioned "a" ranch foreman and maybe they had discussed how to lick the ranch back into shape and maybe he was going to leave his wife but I dont think he had any intention of moving to the ranch with anyone but Ennis.

Just my thoughts


Re: Was Jack was asking RANDALL to dance...??   
  by crissttigaldames     (Wed Apr 5 2006 20:34:26 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
Bump it.

"The Love you take is equal to the Love you make" The Beatles.
Re: Was Jack was asking RANDALL to dance...??   
  by prowlamongus     (Wed Apr 5 2006 20:39:11 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
I firmly belive Randall and Jack had something going on, but Jack would not hurt Ennis by telling him. Jack isn't the type of guy who can live without affection/companionship for extended periods; he's not a loner. Now, love is another dimension. He loved Ennis, but didn't see him often enough. It's better if it were Randall than some random hookups in Mexico..
Re: Was Jack was asking RANDALL to dance...??   
  by LadyDi4476      (Wed Apr 5 2006 20:42:14 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
Jack may have been careless when it came to his sexuality but I don't think even he would be that crazy to openly ask Randall to dance infront of their wives. But I do know what you mean cause it looks like he's talking to him. That sure would have pissed off Lureen if he had been talking to Randall.

There ain't never enough time. Never enough ~ Jack Twist
Re: Was Jack was asking RANDALL to dance...??   
  by silencingseptember     (Fri Apr 7 2006 02:06:38 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
upon inspection.

Fact: Jack asks laShawn to dance. then shifts his eyes towards Randall and asks permission.

also, the camera work does nothing for the jack picking up randall argument.

/fact
Re: Was Jack was asking RANDALL to dance...??   
  by tillerman-1     (Fri Apr 7 2006 17:05:42 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
Thank you -silencingseptember- that is exactly how I saw it to.
Re: Was Jack was asking RANDALL to dance...??   
  by toxicity_     (Fri Apr 7 2006 20:31:18 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
It might be me but i thought that randall was kinda flirting with jake to figure out if hes gay or not. i tought he invited him to go fishing to actually beat him.

Re: Was Jack was asking RANDALL to dance...??   
  by BannerHill     (Sat Apr 8 2006 09:29:47 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
That doesn't make sense because they ended up running off together. Of course you might have thought that at the time when they were sitting outside of the dance hall




"Hey Ennis, do you know someone named 'Jack'?"
Re: Was Jack was asking RANDALL to dance...??   
  by amandazehnder     (Sat Apr 8 2006 21:02:51 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
Well, I'll jump into this one again.

I just re-watched my DVD and I'm quite convinced that the key to this scene is eye-contact and the audience's perception of how the eye contact is working. As with almost every scene in the movie, there's a tension here between ambiguity and certainty.

But, this is my read on the situation...
Early in the scene, while Lashawn and Lureen are talking there's a moment when Jack looks up and notices Randall gazing at him in sort of a sweet, whistful way. I think Randall's gaze there gave Jack the clue he needed to flirt a bit. There's no doubt in my mind that Jack was looking at Randall when he says "want to dance?" He of course expects the women to think he's talking to LaShawn and he asks Randall's permission (just out of keeping up the cover of proper etiquette, but also to to have an excuse to make eye contact with him). Also when Jack stands up to escort Lashawn to the dancefloor he glances back at Randall again (as many others have suggested, probably to make sure that Randall watches him while he dances).

All of this in turn, gives Randall the confidence to invite Jack to the cabin. I still think that Jack hesitates to respond primarily because he's immediately calculating what this would mean to his relationship with Ennis.
Re: Was Jack was asking RANDALL to dance...??   
  by catglith     (Sat Apr 15 2006 16:36:27 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
"That doesn't make sense because they ended up running off together."

There is absolutely NO SOLID EVIDENCE that Jack and Randall had a 'relationship' whatsoever, let alone any that they ran off together.

This scene, like so many others, is meant to be ambiguous. IMO, the filmmakers and scriptwriters want us to interpret scenes and deduce what they mean etc. in order for us to conclude the story as we see fit.

[Post deleted]   
UPDATED Sun Apr 30 2006 00:16:39
This message has been deleted by the poster
Re: Was Jack was asking RANDALL to dance...??   
  by Lee_Holloway     (Sun Apr 30 2006 01:15:47 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
'When he asks LaShawn to dance, Jack’s eyes are definitely looking sharply to his right, not straight ahead.'

Compare it to the angle his eyes were at earlier in the scene when he's looking at LaShawn....not the same.

Regardless, it's very ambiguously filmed, evidenced by the fact that this thread is at over 90 posts/responses:)



'I'm in my tree, I'm talking to the Dixie Chicks and they're making me feel better.'
Re: Was Jack was asking RANDALL to dance...??   
  by PeterDecker     (Sun Apr 30 2006 01:19:54 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
Jack's eyes were looking straight ahead to Randall. LaShawn was to Jack's right and he was not looking at her when he asked her to dance. And Randall noticed.

Ang Lee is a genius and the orginal poster is brilliantly observant. It's very hard to pick up all the nuances in this film.
Re: Was Jack was asking RANDALL to dance...??   
  by PeterDecker     (Sun Apr 30 2006 17:52:33 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
UPDATED Tue May 2 2006 07:36:17
The other post got deleted by the kiddie mods so I'll try and point it out here.

At 1:34:34 minutes into the movie (on my DVD player) Lureen asks Jack why husbands never seem to wanna dance with their wives.

Jack then looks up as LaShawn looks away, and asks her if she wants to dance. However, when LaShawn turns to accept Jack has to adjust his eyes slightly to the right to focus on her. That means he was looking past her to Randall when he asked.

Randall notices all this and he has a startled look on his face.

Look for a slight movement of Jacks eyes to the right as LaShawn looks up to accept Jack's offer of a dance. It's there but you gotta really look.
Re: Was Jack was asking RANDALL to dance...?? NO   
  by taj_e     (Tue Apr 11 2006 07:29:53 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
Thanks silencingseptember
Hope that will clear things up

They were never really any scene hinting us that Jack would be the flirting type (at least after realising his love towards Ennis. Perhaps he did try with Jimbo and as amateur as he was he failed). He was faithful to Ennis other than the one time Mexico trip

Jack was perhaps the only person who knows Ennis's character. You don't flirt with this kind (the kind that says, you can't fix it, you gotta stand it/the one with FEAR stamped on his forehead/the kind that tries to settle problem through violence etc)

I do think that Jack was flirting a bit with LaShawn, however it was meant as a joke and was right on time as far as the topic of their conversation then. Wife making fun of the husbands, and the husbands get back at them (although it was all Jack's effort alone)

If anyone was flirting, it was Randall
Randall started 'flirting' outside the hall. It started with a man to man talks about their wives/works etc and suddenly an 'idea' came up for two men getting away=fishing trip/hunting trip etc

Jack was clearly surprised (we can see that in his eyes)
The whole scene introduce Randall's character (with little bit of his background/his marriage like etc) and we got to see Lureen's 'cold' character developed more and of course the two different worlds both Ennis and Jack (their social life like etc)

'I wish I know how to quit BBM...'
Re: Was Jack was asking RANDALL to dance...??   
  by robins-1     (Tue Apr 18 2006 18:48:42 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
I agree with silencingseptember. Though, where there has been ambiguity before... Mr. Lee may have intended it to appear as though Jack asks Randall, but when I watch Jack's eyes, I see him looking kind of out of the corner of his eyes to his right towards LaShawn when he asks her to dance, then his eyes look back to the centre towards Randall when asking if it is okay.

IMO, he is uncomfortable with Randall looking at him and wants to escape the table by dancing with LaShawn. Perhaps also a little dig at Lureen and whatever is going on in their private life.

I have no doubt that Jack and Randall were together, but, like most feel, it was out of loneliness and wishing for male intimacy.

Jack's true love was Ennis, but Jack had needs, and, they weren't hardly fullfilled, according to his words to Ennis during the argument by the lake.
Re: Was Jack was asking RANDALL to dance...??   
  by BreDigsTheJakeness     (Sat Apr 8 2006 21:13:51 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
I think he was probably trying to flirt with Randall, but asing LaShawn to dance. There were some pretty interesting looks exchanged between the two of them. He probably wasn't asking Randall to dance, because that would have startled a lot people... wives included. It makes sense that Jack and Randall would have been flirting, especially because of the proposition and talk of not understanding women.

Love, Bre <3 <3 
Re: Was Jack was asking RANDALL to dance...??   
  by BannerHill     (Sun Apr 9 2006 19:48:57 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
But again, what I am wondering is if Jack looked at Randall, said "Wanna Dance?", then shifted his eyes to LaShawn for her reaction.

I don't have a DVD yet so I cant check.....



"Hey Ennis, do you know someone named 'Jack'?"
Re: Was Jack was asking RANDALL to dance...??   
  by silencingseptember     (Sun Apr 9 2006 19:53:46 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
sorry.


there is no way he was looking at randall.

he asks lashawn.

then the camera makes a point to show jack's eyes shifting towards randall to ask permission.


maybe randal wasnt even comming onto jack outside the dance hall. maybe he was just asking him to come out to the cabin with him to get him drunk and then try and seduce him.

thats not too unrealistic.
[Post deleted]   
This message has been deleted by the poster
[Post deleted]   
This message has been deleted by the poster
Re: Was Jack was asking RANDALL to dance...??   
  by BannerHill     (Fri Apr 14 2006 10:52:31 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
Are you sure? I don't have the DVD. Seems to me that if he was asking LaShaun, he would have had to have been turning more sharply to his right. Gotta see it again soon....




"Hey Ennis, do you know someone named 'Jack'?"
Re: Was Jack was asking RANDALL to dance...??   
  by malwood2000      (Fri Apr 14 2006 11:41:13 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
silenceinseptember,

Of course Jack first looks at Randall when saying, "Care to dance?". Then his gaze shifts to La Shawn, but not before Randall has returned Jack's gaze. When La Shawn accepts Jack's invitation, only then does Jack quickly glance at Randall again and ask his permission to dance with La Shawn: watch the scene more carefully.

And when Lureen says, "Husbands never seem to dance with thieir wives, why do you think that is?", one would expect Jack to ask Lureen to dance. Instead he asks Randall to "dance" under the guise of asking La Shawn. Why else would he ask LaShawn to dance after what his wife has just said?

I don't understand your last statement; what is the diference between Randall coming onto Jack outside the dance hall and getting him drunk to try and seduce him, they are basically the same----and certainly not too unrealistic, I agree!

[TOoP/Bruce]

Re: Was Jack was asking RANDALL to dance...??   
  by galirora     (Fri Apr 14 2006 11:25:48 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
UPDATED Fri Apr 14 2006 14:12:06
The second time I saw the movie in the theatre I did get the impression that Jack might have been looking at Randall when he said "Wanna dance?". However, watching it on the DVD, it's very clear that Jack is looking directly at LaShawn when he makes the invitation.

<< We see Jack asking the question, but we cut to RANDALL'S startled reaction, then his quick turn left to his wife.>>

The camera doesn't cut to Randall after Jack's question - the next shot is of both LaShawn and Randall. Randall doesn't appear startled, he just looks at LaShawn to see what she'll say, while LaShawn appears to briefly check in with Lureen and then says yes effusively.
Re: Was Jack was asking RANDALL to dance...??   
  by ann_dossen      (Fri Apr 14 2006 11:34:57 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
UPDATED Fri Apr 14 2006 11:37:45
I just watched the scene again a few times in a row and to me it looks like he's asking LaShawn to dance.

However, just seconds before, Jack glanced at Randall and Randall caught his eye, then Jack looked away. (Randall is checking him out...) As Jack stood up to dance, he catches Randall's eye again, but it's nothing meaningful this time.

Also, I think this scene is supposed to contrast how clueless LaShawn is about her husband's sexuality and Lureen already knows or at the very least suspects about Jack... and Jack asked LaShawn to dance to get out of that particular conversation/train of thought. Lureen is obviously already very bitter at this point.

However, once you get outside, it's a whole different story. Randall is looking for a man and Jack just seems surprised. Lots going on here...

I LOVE THIS MOVIE!
Re: Was Jack was asking RANDALL to dance...??   
  by BannerHill     (Fri Apr 14 2006 11:53:26 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
Seems to me that everyone has a different interpretation of this scene. Interesting. I have to get a DVD and study it for myself. I have to say that it is a lot more interesting if Jack is surrepticiously asking Randall to dance. I'll just have to see for myself!




"Hey Ennis, do you know someone named 'Jack'?"
Re: Was Jack was asking RANDALL to dance...??   
  by BannerHill     (Mon Apr 17 2006 20:29:27 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
a shameless bump



"Hey Ennis, do you know someone named 'Jack'?"
[Post deleted]   
This message has been deleted by an administrator
Re: Was Jack was asking RANDALL to dance...??   
  by catglith     (Tue Apr 18 2006 14:21:55 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
Very good point Fran-60614, maybe he was ill-mannered/shy/wanted to check Jack out/felt uncomfortable?

Just a side note: i've decided to dislike Randall on principle, and for no other reason than his presence in Jack's life may have led to Jack mentioning him to his parents, and so Jack's father telling Ennis, which contributed towards the crushing, despairing torment Ennis would have to suffer until the day he died. Irrational i know.
[Post deleted]   
This message has been deleted by an administrator
Re: Was Jack was asking RANDALL to dance...??   
  by catglith     (Tue Apr 18 2006 15:23:34 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
Yup. Everytime i see Jack's family i think, how did Jack come through the other end like he did? Jack was a very strong person evidently.
[Post deleted]   
This message has been deleted by an administrator
Re: Was Jack was asking RANDALL to dance...??   
  by silencingseptember     (Tue Apr 18 2006 21:13:29 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
randall doesn't even look startled.... he just looks normal.

jack doesn't ask randall to dance.
he asks LaShawn.

/discussion
[Post deleted]   
This message has been deleted by the poster
Re: Was Jack was asking RANDALL to dance...??   
  by BannerHill     (Wed Apr 19 2006 20:51:41 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
I thought that Randall looked very startled




"Hey Ennis, do you know someone named 'Jack'?"
Re: Was Jack was asking RANDALL to dance...??   
  by taj_e     (Wed Apr 19 2006 21:42:12 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
Randall did look startled. So was LaShawn and Lureen. They should given the fact that Jack was 'quick' to his answer. He mumbled something (I dunno?) and 'wanna dance?'

'I wish I know how to quit BBM...'
Re: Was Jack was asking RANDALL to dance...??   
  by weaselprince71     (Wed Apr 19 2006 22:09:46 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
UPDATED Wed Apr 19 2006 22:18:46
With a single adverb that reads more strongly on the page than in Hathaway's understated performance, the screenplay makes Lureen's question sound very pointed indeed:

LUREEN
It's funny, ain't it? Husbands don't never seem to dance with their wives.
(sarcastic)
Why do you think that is, Jack?

...and then makes it clear that Jack catches her precise tone:

JACK wants to have a good time--doesn't take her bait.

JACK
Ain't never give it a thought.
(to Lashawn)
Wanna dance?

Lee adds his own twist by shooting Jack's line from a vantage point, between Lashawn and Randall, which makes it seem as though Jack is looking somewhat past Lashawn to Randall while saying "Wanna dance?" With Lashawn at the left edge of the frame and Randall off camera (to the right? or is the camera adopting Randall's POV?), Gyllenhaal exploits the ambiguous framing with amazing subtlety, seemingly managing to make full eye contact with Lashawn only after the line's been spoken. She is turning away from her husband toward Jack at the same time, so on closer examination Jack's gaze appears to be following hers. But with Gyllenhaal looking almost straight out (toward the camera) rather than toward Faris on his right, one's fleeting impression is that Jack has been staring Randall almost brazenly in the eye while asking "Wanna dance?" -- which of course, in itself, makes a slyly succinct answer to Lureen's question.

I've never noticed a very strong reaction from Harbour on the cutaway during Faris's sweetly oblivious response: though Randall is presumably getting Jack's message, he hides it fairly well.
Re: Was Jack was asking RANDALL to dance...??   
  by taj_e     (Thu Apr 20 2006 09:31:45 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
weaselprince71
Thanks, the screeplay pretty sum up the scene
Jack was asking LaShawn (looking at her first) and looking at Randall if it is ok to dance with his wife

Come to think about it, we see the wives making conversation, and the husbands too although it was only Jack who uttered words

Wives: It's funny, ain't it? Husbands don't never seem to dance with their wives.
(sarcastic)
Why do you think that is, HUSBANDS?

Husbands: Ain't never give it a thought
(to wives)
Wanna dance? (to not their own wife)
(looks at each other for permission)

'I wish I know how to quit BBM...'
Re: Was Jack was asking RANDALL to dance...??   
  by Lee_Holloway     (Thu Apr 20 2006 11:57:26 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
Regardless of anything outlined in the script, I think it's the actual filming of the scene that's telling.....and watch it again, it's really cleverly done.....

Jack seems to be looking just past Lashawn, almost into the camera, and the scene seems to be from Randall's POV at the table. It's beautifully ambiguous and I don't think there's anything accidental about it....

The effect is such that when I saw it, I immediately thought 'wow, he just looked right at him and asked him to dance!' but everyone just assumes that he must be asking her, so no one even noticed (except Randall, who apparently did 'get the message')


'I'm in my tree, I'm talking to the Dixie Chicks and they're making me feel better.'
Re: Was Jack was asking RANDALL to dance...??   
  by BannerHill     (Thu Apr 20 2006 20:26:13 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   

Excellent investigative reporting here. I look forward to seeing it again on DVD.



"Hey Ennis, do you know someone named 'Jack'?"
[Post deleted]   
This message has been deleted by the poster
[Post deleted]   
This message has been deleted by the poster
Re: Was Jack was asking RANDALL to dance...??   
  by b_hynds     (Fri Apr 21 2006 00:28:07 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
I just popped the DVD in and watched that scene. The camera does appear to be viewing them from Randal's perspective but to me it appears that Jack is looking at Lashawn when he askes her to dance.

"There ain't never enough time, never enough..."
Re: Was Jack was asking RANDALL to dance...??   
  by Lee_Holloway     (Fri Apr 21 2006 00:33:51 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
'Lee adds his own twist by shooting Jack's line from a vantage point, between Lashawn and Randall, which makes it seem as though Jack is looking somewhat past Lashawn to Randall while saying "Wanna dance?" With Lashawn at the left edge of the frame and Randall off camera (to the right? or is the camera adopting Randall's POV?), Gyllenhaal exploits the ambiguous framing with amazing subtlety...(snip)..with Gyllenhaal looking almost straight out (toward the camera) rather than toward Faris on his right, one's fleeting impression is that Jack has been staring Randall almost brazenly in the eye while asking "Wanna dance?" -- which of course, in itself, makes a slyly succinct answer to Lureen's question.'


Exactly:)

(and apologies for not quoting this part of your post when I made mine after)



'I'm in my tree, I'm talking to the Dixie Chicks and they're making me feel better.'
[Post deleted]   
This message has been deleted by the poster
Re: Was Jack was asking RANDALL to dance...??   
  by BannerHill     (Fri Apr 21 2006 19:27:06 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
I just had a 50 inch Hitachi delivered and am setting it up so I can see for myself....!



"Hey Ennis, do you know someone named 'Jack'?"
Re: Was Jack was asking RANDALL to dance...??   
  by weaselprince71     (Fri Apr 21 2006 21:08:46 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
BannerHill: sounds like an extreme measure, just for one three-second snippet of a scene, but hey, if you can afford to have 50-inch Hitachis delivered at will, go for it... and then again, you never know when a 50-inch Hitachi might come in handy again sometime...

LeeHolloway: no problem at all -- although I was curious when I read your response, since it seemed like we were saying pretty much the same thing. Thanks for quoting, now I feel all warm & special! hehe

Re: Was Jack was asking RANDALL to dance...??   
  by Lee_Holloway     (Fri Apr 21 2006 22:18:20 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
'LeeHolloway: no problem at all -- although I was curious when I read your response, since it seemed like we were saying pretty much the same thing. Thanks for quoting, now I feel all warm & special! hehe'


I'd just skimmed through the thread when I posted........so imagine how embarrassed I was when I went back and read your post more thoroughly and saw just HOW similar our comments were! *teehee*



'I'm in my tree, I'm talking to the Dixie Chicks and they're making me feel better.'
Re: Was Jack was asking RANDALL to dance...??   
  by monimm18      (Fri Apr 21 2006 22:30:52 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
OK, I am coming really late into this discussion, so...

I saw the dance invitation scene totally different. I think Randall suspected Jack was gay and tried his luck. If you remember, Randall gives Jack that flirting stare at the table, while their wives (well, LaShawn) talk, but Jack does not respond by staring back. He averts his eyes by looking down, as if he didn't notice. I saw that as a deliberate non-responsive, almost rejecting attitude towards Randall.
I thought asking LaShawn to dance was a gesture of reply to both Lureen's comment (payback?) and Randall's flirty stare ("Not interested/available"?), and maybe a way to get himself out of a "between a rock and a hard spot" type of situation. Maybe that's why Randall looked surprised: the dance invitation contradicted his perception of Jack. I mean, couldn't Jack's asking LaShawn to dance be an attempt for Jack to mistify Randall, because, maybe, he wasn't ready for him?
Later, on the bench outside, Jack's awkwardness tells Randall he didn't read him wrong, so he tries his luck again with a subtle come on. The way Jack sits there staring, contemplating the possibility, that's when I thought he was beginning to give in. The whole scene seemed to depict Jack as, in a way, seduced by Randall, who practically gets to him because of Jack's hunger for more than long distance love and one night stands with strangers.

I dunno, but I don't think the idea was to portray Jack as someone eager to jump into it with any guy who shows interest in him, however sexually frustrated he might have been. I think some reluctance in his attitude was necessary, that's why I saw the whole scene the way I did. I mean, one understands why Jack found solace in other men, but not if it were easy for him to do it, don't you think?



"We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars."
Oscar Wilde
Re: Was Jack was asking RANDALL to dance...??   
  by Lee_Holloway     (Sat Apr 22 2006 00:21:30 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
UPDATED Sat Apr 22 2006 00:26:58
'I don't think the idea was to portray Jack as someone eager to jump into it with any guy who shows interest in him'

I don't think that's necessarily the 'main point' of the scene either.......

I think his momentary 'boldness' was more a combination of his frustration (with the Ennis situation and his marriage) and a kind of spontaneous cheekiness. Throughout the film, Jack's the one who almost seems to be 'busting at the seams' out of repression.

'I think some reluctance in his attitude was necessary'

I think that 'reluctance' was portrayed nicely in the following scene, as we see his reaction to Randall's cabin offer.


'The whole scene seemed to depict Jack as, in a way, seduced by Randall'

I see it the opposite way........

as 'unspoken' and subtle as their interaction is, I see Jack as being the one who makes the first move to 'test things'. Personally, I don't think Randall would have come out with the cabin invitation in the first place without Jack's thinly-veiled flirtation at the table. I almost think that Jack 'wants to want' to flirt with another man more than he actually wants it (which explains his lack of enthusiasm upon Randall's invite)



'I'm in my tree, I'm talking to the Dixie Chicks and they're making me feel better.'
[Post deleted]   
This message has been deleted by the poster
Re: Was Jack was asking RANDALL to dance...??   
  by catglith     (Sat Apr 22 2006 01:51:12 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
Love your take on this scene monimm18 , and i agree.
Re: Was Jack was asking RANDALL to dance...??   
  by weaselprince71     (Mon Apr 24 2006 20:14:21 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
UPDATED Sat Apr 29 2006 18:02:12
It takes two to tango, monimm18 and catglith -- all the more so when both participants in the seduction are obliged to keep it entirely invisible to a roomful of onlookers.

I think I'm more with Lee H on this one, though I don't actually think the question of "who's the instigator" matters tremendously. But I do mildly object to the notion that Jack's validity as a romantic hero can only be preserved by downplaying his libido and his willingness to satisfy it with other men than Ennis.

The romantic ideal of Ennis, the strong silent type, nursing a silent passion for just one man over a period of two decades, is brought into painfully realistic focus by the fact the he also alienates everyone with the misfortune to love him (including, to some extent, the object of his ardor, Jack himself) -- not to mention the fact that he's an emotional cripple and, not infrequently, a physical menace to others. The man has issues, and they're not pretty. If we sentimentally love him for his faults, it diminishes the impact of his reconciliation with Alma Jr. at the film's conclusion.

It seems only fair that Jack, for all his romantic charisma, should have his share of flaws as well. He's a bit of a charmer, with some of the opportunism that entails, and while his love for Ennis is (like Ennis's for him) as pure as it can be under the circumstances, this is, as much as Proulx and Lee can make it, the real world, not romance-novel territory. Jack's no saint himself, and a roving eye (though not, I would add, a compulsive or pathologic one: as he points out, surviving on two or three face-to-face meetings a year is simply too much to ask of a longtime lover) fits his personality perfectly.

As with Romeo and Juliet, the question that gets largely ignored is whether the relationship would actually have survived very long under less adverse circumstances. In both works, the answer to that question lies well outside the scope of the material itself, so, fine: the question is necessarily academic. My point isn't to offer a contrarian no for the sake of it. But on the other hand, the commonly-presumed yes can lead to a rather flattened view of both pairs of lovers, who lose a certain amount of texture and vitality when viewed simply as moony romantic archetypes.
Re: Was Jack was asking RANDALL to dance...??   
  by BannerHill     (Fri Apr 28 2006 19:09:32 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
I think it would have been difficult for Jack to live with Ennis. Ennis was such a pain.



"Hey Ennis, do you know someone named 'Jack'?"
Re: Was Jack was asking RANDALL to dance...??   
  by BannerHill     (Sat Apr 29 2006 23:55:53 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
Oh. I just saw the DVD. I was wrong. Jack definitly is NOT asking Randall to dance. He looks directly at LaShaun. That is the final word. There is a suprised reaction from Randall, but it is AFTER Jack has asked LaShaun to dance.

There is a some heavy direct eye contact between the two men early on, though.



"Hey Ennis, do you know someone named 'Jack'?"
Re: Was Jack was asking RANDALL to dance...??   
  by kthstewart     (Sun Apr 30 2006 00:54:58 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
I don't think Jack would have danced with Randall at that charitable benefit that he, Randall, LaShawn and Lureen were at in Childress, Texas in 1978. I actually think he was getting back at Lureen for being sarcastic with him when she said "husbands never seem to ask their wives to dance. Why do think that is Jack?" He first told her that he hadn't given it much thought and then he asked LaShawn to dance. However outside on the bench when Randall was talking about Roy Taylor's cabin he was really hitting on Jack. After what Jack's father told Ennis when Ennis visited Jack's folks about Jack's ashes I wouldn't be surprised though if Jack hadn't taken Randall up on going to that cabin especially in light of the way Ennis had disappointed Jack at their last meeting together.
Re: Was Jack was asking RANDALL to dance...??   
  by weaselprince71     (Mon May 1 2006 00:36:20 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
UPDATED Sat Sep 2 2006 13:23:39
No one is seriously suggesting that Jack would actually have danced with Randall in this (or probably any) context, that his invitation to Randall (if such it was) was meant literally, or even that Jack meant for anyone else (other than possibly Lureen, on the theory of sniping back at her "why do you think that is?" remark) to catch the fact that his invitation was being addressed to Randall rather than LaShawn.

All of that is going with idea that he did have any intention of addressing it to Randall. Like I explained above, it's open to some debate -- not "case closed," Banner, though you may choose to close it for yourself, just as I've chosen to make a point of deliberately leaving almost all cases in Brokeback wide open.
Re: Was Jack was asking RANDALL to dance...??   
  by taj_e     (Tue May 2 2006 04:45:53 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
UPDATED Tue May 2 2006 04:47:29
interesting perspective on the scene itself. Check the first paragraph on OP
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0388795/board/flat/42166066

'I wish I knew how to quit BBM...'
Re: Was Jack was asking RANDALL to dance...??   
  by catglith     (Tue May 2 2006 11:51:13 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
Taj_e that benefit dinner scene with Jack is very telling.

Unfortunately for Jack maybe he'd got to the state of mind where he believed the only thing that would make him happy was a life with Ennis, thus making him incapable of ever really finding happiness elsewhere, it became his 'fixation' if you like.
Re: Was Jack was asking RANDALL to dance...??   
  by taj_e     (Wed May 3 2006 07:40:34 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
Its mind bogling lol
I still stick to, Jack being faithful and the only person who was playing the card was Randall. As Jack did with Jimbo (although Jack maybe was just trying to be nice/making friends)

The earlier post was probably more of a 'trapped' Jack. And his ways/means to escape unlike Ennis resorted to violence/fight

But of course 'fixation' can be one too

'I wish I knew how to quit BBM...'
[Post deleted]   
This message has been deleted by the poster
Re: Was Jack was asking RANDALL to dance...??   
  by taj_e     (Wed May 17 2006 14:05:36 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
OT I was thinking the right background music for the scene outside the hall would be 'It's so easy to fall in love'
Similar to Ennis and Cassie
bump   
  by joyce023     (Wed May 31 2006 07:18:30 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
bump
Re: Was Jack was asking RANDALL to dance...??   
  by shesfalleninlovewithamon     (Tue Jul 4 2006 12:57:42 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
i guess that 'fixation' should be called 'desperate love'...
Re: Was Jack was asking RANDALL to dance...??   
  by revolution-hk     (Thu Jun 1 2006 03:36:42 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
Just a little test to see if Randall cared about that lively little gal, and he didn't.

- Sorry for the poor grammar.
[Post deleted]   
This message has been deleted by the poster
[Post deleted]   
This message has been deleted by the poster
[Post deleted]   
This message has been deleted by the poster
[Post deleted]   
This message has been deleted by an administrator
[Post deleted]   
This message has been deleted by the poster
Re: Funny thing is...   
  by tillerman-1     (Tue Jul 4 2006 16:21:40 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
I agree he was just getting back at Lureen by asking Lashawn to dance. I don't think there was any hidden signs that he was actually asking Randall. In fact I didn't see any of the signs some say where there about the two of them flirting with each other. I don't think Jack was interested in Randall at all and that the looks where just man to man rolling of eyes (on Jacks part any way) while listening to their wives.


[Post deleted]   
This message has been deleted by the poster
Re: Was Jack was asking RANDALL to dance...??   
  by Debbie1965     (Mon Jun 26 2006 09:18:39 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
I thought Jack was asking Randall to dance too. I hadn't put as much thought into it as you did, but all of it certainly makes since.
Re: Was Jack was asking RANDALL to dance...??   
  by BannerHill     (Mon Aug 14 2006 21:01:02 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
On a smaller screen, this scene really 'pops out' for some reason
Re: Was Jack was asking RANDALL to dance...??   
  by BannerHill     (Mon Aug 14 2006 22:29:53 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
This is crazy. I can't get the posts to move beyond the 'post deleteds'. It is nice that this thread is still around, but if the post is not listed last, it doesn't feel relevant.

Help!
Re: Was Jack was asking RANDALL to dance...??   
  by Mister_Magoo     (Mon Aug 14 2006 23:30:04 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
hmm, your posts are after the 'post deleted' ones

maybe try changing your thread/board setting to 'flat' (instead of 'nest' or the others)? because with 'flat', the most recent post always appears last.
[Post deleted]   
This message has been deleted by the poster
CAN ANYONE GET A POST TO APPEAR AFTER THE 'POST DELETED' POSTS?   
  by BannerHill     (Sun Sep 3 2006 11:17:32 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
I can't do it. This thread is essentially dead unless we can do this....Help!
[Post deleted]   
This message has been deleted by the poster
[Post deleted]   
This message has been deleted by the poster
[Post deleted]   
This message has been deleted by the poster
[Post deleted]   
This message has been deleted by the poster
[Post deleted]   
This message has been deleted by the poster
[Post deleted]   
This message has been deleted by the poster
[Post deleted]   
UPDATED Mon Aug 14 2006 23:38:22
This message has been deleted by an administrator
Funny thing is...   
  by toycoon      (Sat Sep 30 2006 18:41:30 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
... if this had been a TV sitcom, Randall would have stood up and said, "I'd love to dance with you, Jack!"
That's what makes this scene so ambiguous and compelling; the audience has the inside info of exactly why, 'husbands don't never seem to want to dance with their wives'. By this point, we have seen so many things that were so unexpected that we almost believe that Jack IS asking Randall to dance. He is just getting back at Lureen by asking LaShawn to dance.

Re: Was Jack was asking RANDALL to dance...??   
  by Whatwhyhowwho     (Mon Oct 30 2006 12:55:18 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
Oooh, I'll have to watch it again and see. IMO, I thought Jack's facial expression when Randall talked about going to his boss' cabin to fish, said it all. He looked SO torn, like he didn't really want to go or be with him. But with Ennis resisting, he thought otherwise.

Re: bump   
  by HeathandMichelle     (Sat Feb 3 2007 16:30:58 )   

When I watch the dance scene, I see Jack coming on to Randall. The eye contact when he asked lureen to dance, he's actually looking at Randall. It shows to me why Jack met his fate. He was no longer being cautious.