Jack's feelings for Ennis: LOVE or LUST? -- by djo-17

[TOoP/Bruce]

Jack's feelings for Ennis: LOVE or LUST?   
  by djo-17     (Fri Jul 28 2006 15:25:15 )   
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UPDATED Fri Jul 28 2006 15:31:04
I believe, there has already been some mention of this before, but I thought of some things that help to clarify the situation.

1. If Jack was only concerned with the sexual nature of their relationship, once he had "trysts" with other men, likely he would have forgotten Ennis, sooner or later.
2. When he went to see Ennis after the divorce, he expected that Ennis would be free to finally ranch together. Of course, he was disappointed, and out of frustration, went down to Mexico, and had a poor substitute for what he really wanted.
3. The obvious fact of Jack keeping the two shirts for twenty years.

Although disappointed in Ennis's unwillingness, out of fear, to make a committment, Jack still held out hope that things might change. This fact just makes the story all the more tragic in the end, when Ennis finally mouths THOSE THREE WORDS, as he takes that deep breath while smelling those shirts in Jack's closet.

This would appear to indicate that Jack did indeed truly love Ennis. Unfortunately, Ennis expressed his feelings for Jack, too late. His feeling of regret comes through when he says "Jack, I swear......"
That's my feelings on this, for what its worth.

"Like I said, me and Alma are gettin' married in November. Probably get some work on a ranch. And you?"






Doug O'Connor
I think LUST would have worn out by the fifth year.   
  by toycoon      (Fri Jul 28 2006 17:01:01 )   
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Jack thinks of Ennis all the time. He dreams of Ennis. Jack lives and breathes Ennis.

The movie indicates that Jack had a great deal of patience with his true passion, Ennis. As soon as Ennis gave the word that he was divorced, Jack impulsively drives to Riverton with only a tacit invitation. And it's only after being rejected by Ennis' after his divorce that he makes the decision to go to Mexico for some release from the spell Ennis has him in. It wasn't the kindest decision he could have made but these men don't make the wisest of choices.
Re: I think LUST would have worn out by the fifth year.   
  by daphne7661     (Fri Jul 28 2006 20:53:11 )   
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UPDATED Fri Jul 28 2006 20:55:18
And it's only after being rejected by Ennis' after his divorce that he makes the decision to go to Mexico for some release from the spell Ennis has him in.

toycoon, this is the BEST description/defense for Jack going to Mexico I have seen yet. It seems like everyone is quick to judge Jack for going to Mexico and meeting up with the prostitute (who happens to be played in a cameo role by the cinematographer, Rodrigo Prietro), and quickly forget how hurt, devastated and alone Jack must feel at this point. His entire dream of being with Ennis was completely shattered when Ennis sent him away. Jack IS in a spell from Ennis. Poor baby... I just want to hug him when he is crying in that truck... This is the point in the movie where I start welling up and don't really stop until the end and then some....


...Nice to know ya, Ennis del Mar...
Re: I think LUST would have worn out by the fifth year.   
  by tillerman-1     (Sat Jul 29 2006 11:58:19 )   
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I think it was always love.
He always careful around Ennis with what he said or did (not just while they were up on Brokeback Mountain but also during the twenty years).
I don't think someone who felt Lust would do this.
Lust would have burned out sooner. Love holds on.



"Ennis you know somebody named Jack?....From Texas."
Re: I think LUST would have worn out by the fifth year.   
  by HellsThorn     (Sat Jul 29 2006 12:07:39 )   
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Its Love, but there is also lust in there too (reunion scene,IMO) Ennis cries over Jack after he dies, i think that is a sign of deep love, i wouldn't cry over someone that i used just for sex. Jack and Ennis always came back to each other, even if jack was about to 'quit him' that stills leaves 20 years that they had shared. Jack cries when he was declined by Ennis, sad part, but i doubt he cries because he didn't get to have sex with Ennis. I think he cries because he loves Ennis and always wanted to be around him. I think it was love, but some lust was there too. Maybe it began as lust, but in the end its definitly love

"I'm sorry, I'm Sorry." "its alright."
Re: I think LUST would have worn out by the fifth year.   
  by andros12     (Sat Jul 29 2006 16:04:36 )   
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I think it was love, but some lust was there too.


It seems possible the mischievous Greek God Eros may have had a hand in the hanky panky. 

Re: I think LUST would have worn out by the fifth year.   
  by likeapoet     (Sat Jul 29 2006 21:21:09 )   
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plus any competent fool will know that
a romantic relationship based on lust alone
will not last for 20 years...

maybe 2 years if you're lucky
and i'm speaking from experience
Re: I think LUST would have worn out by the fifth year.   
  by panam231     (Sun Jul 30 2006 01:45:04 )   
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Please lust dont last for 20 years. Does not work that way. Love is a diffrent matter. Jack and Ennis were in love, point blank.
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Re: I think LUST would have worn out by the fifth year.   
  by djo-17     (Mon Jul 31 2006 15:32:03 )   
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To panam231: Exactly! That is why this movie was more properly marketed as a "love story" as opposed to the oversimplified media version of "the gay cowboy movie."
Doug O'Connor
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Re: Jack's feelings for Ennis: LOVE or LUST?   
  by stephen-mellor     (Mon Jul 31 2006 15:24:17 )   
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Amazing debut post, Jhnwhynt! Way to go!

So full of empathy, understanding, tolerance, knowledge. Judgement free.

And all in under two lines.

Wow!
Re: Jack's feelings for Ennis: LOVE or LUST?   
  by the_harmster-1     (Mon Jul 31 2006 15:32:45 )   
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Who are you to say that homosexuals cann't love? I have seen love between people of the same sex first hand. I have a dear friend who is gay. She has been with the same person for the last 7 years. I am sure that sex is a huge part of that but there is something more between them than just that. Need I mention Elton John and his longtime partner David Furnish? With Jack and Ennis it may have started as lust. True, but I think that they truely loved eachother. Each did what they were expected to do. Such as get married and have children. Yet, they needed eachother and that is what love really is. Love means a lot of things to different people. So, don't knock what you don't understand.





SO I OWN NOT A NOTION
I ESCAPE AND APE CONTENT
I DON'T OWN EMOTION
I RENT!!
Re: Jack's feelings for Ennis: LOVE or LUST?   
  by fuxy_brown     (Mon Jul 31 2006 16:03:51 )   
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what three words does he mouth when holding the shirts??

please tell me!!!

"Does Barry Manilow know that you raid his wardrobe?"
- John Bender, The Breakfast Club
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Re: Jack's feelings for Ennis: LOVE or LUST?   
  by stephen-mellor     (Mon Jul 31 2006 16:55:42 )   
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Second post, more outrageous than the first.

But of course, you're a troll. Goodbye.
Re: Jack's feelings for Ennis: LOVE or LUST?   
  by ccr1633     (Mon Jul 31 2006 16:53:02 )   
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" I believe, there has already been some mention of this before, but I thought of some things that help to clarify the situation.

1. If Jack was only concerned with the sexual nature of their relationship, once he had "trysts" with other men, likely he would have forgotten Ennis, sooner or later. "
--------------------------

I think you're giving short shrift to the thrill Jack got from his efforts to turn Ennis over to the dark side. It's a powerful motivation, this manipulation of another human being's emotions and ultimately getting him to do your bidding. Such a thrill was certainly reason enough for Jack to abstain from his sexual trysts for a long while.
Re: Jack's feelings for Ennis: LOVE or LUST?   
  by fuxy_brown     (Mon Jul 31 2006 16:57:23 )   
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Jhnwhynt, I dont think you should say that sort of thing to other people, and if you talk like that you shouldnt watch this film.

Will someone please answer my question??

"Does Barry Manilow know that you raid his wardrobe?"
- John Bender, The Breakfast Club
Re: Jack's feelings for Ennis: LOVE or LUST?   
  by Jhnwhynt     (Mon Jul 31 2006 17:40:44 )   
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The question was whether or not it was love or lust. I guess no one wants honest answers. Let's try logic. God is love. All things that come from God incompass this law. Heterosexuals come from God, and they demonstrate love. God did not create homosexuals (if so, what would be the purpose?), so they are exempt from His blessings, which include love. Anything not godly would be outside of God. Lust is ungodly--homosexuality is ungodly. This is simple logic, but the deaf will not hear. Why ask this question if you do not want answers? This is a fact of nature and God.

Jack seduced Ennis. He recruited someone who was godly and heterosexual. Ennis did that one act and was addicted. Homosexual lust is stronger than just about anything--and Ennis with one act became a homosexual. He could never get away from it. That is why so many homosexuals try to escape their lifestyle, but once recruited, once you take that initial step, you are hooked for life. It is sad, but no one can get away from that which has ensnared them.
Re: Jack's feelings for Ennis: LOVE or LUST?   
  by DannyThomas     (Mon Jul 31 2006 17:48:18 )   
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You are just plain sick. Get help.
Re: Jack's feelings for Ennis: LOVE or LUST?   
  by Chaplin_fan     (Mon Jul 31 2006 18:03:30 )   
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Jhnwhynt, the only thing that is "plain and simple" is your mind. You are an idiot.

I generally don't like to resort to name-calling, but with someone as incredibly small-minded (and likely seriously disturbed) as you, there is no sense in trying rational debate.

You are just another hateful cretin who uses your chosen religion to justify your bigotry. You should be ashamed, and have no right to call yourself a Christian.
Re: Jack's feelings for Ennis: LOVE or LUST?   
  by HeathandMichelle     (Mon Jul 31 2006 18:13:42 )   
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Jack had lust/love. Ennis love/lust. Ennis met someone who opened him up that let to his love of Jack which led to his lust. Jack, once he met Ennis, had lust which turned to love. Ying/Yang.
Re: Jack's feelings for Ennis: LOVE or LUST?   
  by andros12     (Mon Jul 31 2006 18:43:20 )   
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Let's try logic. God is love. All things that come from God encompass this law. Heterosexuals come from God and they demonstrate love


Another example of a sweeping generalization that does not apply across the board.



Homosexual lust is stronger than just about anything


Is it even stronger than heterosexual lust? References please.



Once you take that initial step you are hooked for life


Really, even without the predisposition? References please.
Re: Jack's feelings for Ennis: LOVE or LUST?   
  by everloony     (Mon Jul 31 2006 22:32:35 )   
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People like you are the reason I went atheist.
Re: Jack's feelings for Ennis: LOVE or LUST?   
  by ccr1633     (Tue Aug 1 2006 00:15:38 )   
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"People like you are the reason I went atheist."
----------------------------------------------------

That's a stupid reason.
Re: Jack's feelings for Ennis: LOVE or LUST?   
  by michael418     (Tue Aug 1 2006 10:26:37 )   
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Jhnwhynt, your logic is flawed in several places here.
Firstly, you claim to know what types of people God did and didn't create. This is a rather foolhardy assertion. I certainely don't believe that people are born homosexuals, but I do think it is generally something determined at a very early age, regardless of upbringing (I know men who were smothered by their mothers at that age who are completely heterosexual, as well as men who were raised tough and hard by their fathers who are completely homosexual).
Now, you assert 'God did not create homosexuals.' Are you saying (and I know you are) that God did not create in them their homosexual desires and tendencies? Of course. Nobody is born from God, you fool. God creates nobody. Humans create humans.
But furthermore, would you agree that, according to your (what I am assuming to be) Christian beliefs, all humans are children of God? So no more of this talk of 'God did not create them,' as if they sprouted up from the depths of Hell.
Secondly, heterosexuality and homosexuality are really only social constructs that we have created to define the nature of our sexual identity. What we are speaking of is same-sex and opposite-sex attraction.
In ancient Greece, there was no talk of 'homosexuality' and 'heterosexuality.; Men slept with other men, and yet, it was never something damned or exalted in itself (interestingly enough, the greeks believed that love could only exist between two men. Now, of course we know this to be untrue, but it is an interesting little tidbit).
Now, onto your first logical fallacy. You claim that homosexuals cannot feel love because they are exempt from all of his blessings, and love proceeds from God, correct? The problem here is that a creature need not be subject to his blessings to know the nature of his blessings. Man is not merely an empty vessel filled with the spirit of God. God created man with a self-willing mind. This means that, whether or not we choose to follow God, we still have the capacity, as humans, to love, because we, in-ourselves, have a capacity for love. Now, yes, God has an infinitely greater capacity for this love, but it is incorrect to state that they cannot love eachother. Yes, they can.
Furthermore, is it not rather presumptious of you to presume all of what does and what doesn't recieve God's blessings? We can have a generally good idea of his word, but to claim that you have unlimited access to the mind of God is baseless egotism which, I assure you, if anything he detests more than homosexual lust. Remember that pride is the crown of the vices, and you are certainely very prideful.
Now, you might say 'IT SAYS SO IN THE BIBLE!!!11.' Fair enough. But I'm tired of people picking and choosing which parts of the Bible to subscribe to. It also commands you to murder anyone who works on the Sabbath. Are you going to carry out *that* commandment? Unless you murder people on the basis of the Bible's judgements and follow therein every rule ascribed to govern you (really, the old testament mainly established a moral order for the israelites), or admit that the Bible is fallable and that it is a guidebook to God's way, written by man and possibly much of it obscured by man, and that not every word of it is, to make a friend of irony, gospel truth.
Furthermore, if only beings who recieve God's blessing can feel love, then you will also have to assert that anyone who isn't in some form christian cannot feel love, for certainely they are just as exempt from his blessings as homosexuals are. Are you going to say that only christians can feel love? Are you really that stupid? If not, then you will be forced to admit that a human can and does feel love, independent from the blessings of God.
Now, does God bless homosexual relationships? I really couldn't say. I don't know. It doesn't concern me. I'm not god, and will not pretend to have secret insider connections to the intricacies of his judgements.
Your grasp of 'simple logic' is about as profound as a small child's grasp on the calculus, if your posts are any example. Furthermore, you are a proud man. I think your flaws are quite more severe than the flaws of the homosexuals.

Oh, and moreover, you claim, that before Jack 'recruited' Ennis, that he was 'godly and heterosexual.' Now, I've seen the movie twice, and if you closely examine the character of Ennis before he and Jack have sex, you'll notice just how cloistered and frightened of the world he is. Hell, he stays this way all through the film, but people aren't naturally like this: something happens to produce it. In this case, and I believe I am correct in saying this, Ennis was never 'recruited' by Jack because he had been plagued by homosexual desires all of his life... and after his father showed him what happened to two men who were openly homosexual, he completely damned and repressed those feelings in himself, making an enemy of the world and damning himself every day for what he is. This is also why Ennis never dares get together with Jack, even when he is home free to do so, because he is so sure that he and Jack will be killed for daring to be an openly homosexual couple. Also, notice that when informed of Jack's death, he, in his mind, is presented with his own terrible and violent picture of the events that took place. This is a thread that weaves its way throughout the film: Ennis was never a heterosexual. Finding a woman to marry, getting a home, even before he met Jack, just did nothing for him. Not because it was, say, the wrong choice of woman (I am convinced that he did care about his wife, but came to detest her for the role she played in his life, which was never her fault, but to him she came to represent all of the societal forces out there to damn and persecute his true nature and the encouragement to continue living a lie as a 'godly and heterosexual' man, in your words), or because he disliked where he lived, but precisely because it worked against his nature. I do believe it was easier for him to swallow the lies he was being fed before he met Jack, certainely, but he was never heterosexual, and thus by your judgment never 'godly.'
Re: Jack's feelings for Ennis: LOVE or LUST?   
  by sadieraven73     (Tue Aug 1 2006 11:09:22 )   
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I didn't realize that homosexuals "recruited" others! Wow! What a concept! I will have to tell all of my homosexual friends this so that they can begin to recruit others! Is there some sort of training course for this? Don't be so narrow minded! Maybe your "God" didn't create homosexuals, but my Goddess loves everyone! You should take a lesson from Her!

[TOoP/Bruce]

Re: Jack's feelings for Ennis: LOVE or LUST?   
  by ailuro      (Tue Aug 1 2006 13:02:16 )   
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If you love someone and don't feel any lust or passion for him/her then there's something wrong...



Its possible to love someone for many years & lose that initial white-hot lust as time goes on. Lust is a physical reaction to romantic love, as well as a physical reaction of attraction without love. But what you retain is passion & passion for another takes many forms. That is from the soul & remains always.
Re: Jack's feelings for Ennis: LOVE or LUST?   
  by andros12     (Tue Aug 1 2006 14:39:29 )   
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But what you retain is passion & passion for another takes many forms. That is from the soul & remains always.


Exactly, and as life experience and many philosophical and scientific traditions teach; all that is manifest in the physical plane is transient.

I like the Platonic notions about the ultimate human love as being that of the soul as determined by its ability to manifest a working knowledge of the "good" as well as the integration of the qualities of virtue, serenity and inner harmony.

Re: Jack's feelings for Ennis: LOVE or LUST?   
  by Mister_Magoo     (Fri Aug 25 2006 00:22:29 )   
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'Maybe your "God" didn't create homosexuals, but my Goddess loves everyone!'

that's bumpersticker-worthy:)
Re: Jack's feelings for Ennis: LOVE or LUST?   
  by doelcm     (Mon Jul 31 2006 19:42:33 )   
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It was more than LUST.

It was the LUST of a lifetime. The One True LUST. The LUST that will never grow old. The Greatest LUST the World Has Ever Known.

It was so much more than the lust that Romeo felt for Juliet. More than Scarlett's lust for Rhett. More than those young lusters on the Titanic. Jacks LUST for Ennis stands proudly next to all the great lusts of history and literature.

I hope everyone gets a chance to experience such an endearing, enduring lust at least once in their own life. The kind of quiet lust that allows you to sit comfortably near each other, holding hands or just being aware of each other's presence. The kind of lust that, if the situation allows, will last as you grow old together.


-----
I love Mister Bungee--yes indeedy (here's your ziti)!
Re: Jack's feelings for Ennis: LOVE or LUST?   
  by ricmalic     (Mon Jul 31 2006 19:50:00 )   
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Lust at first, then love.
Re: Jack's feelings for Ennis: LOVE or LUST?   
  by Luna29     (Mon Jul 31 2006 20:21:31 )   
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I don`t think there`s love without lust. Now don`t get me wrong, I don`t mean love you feel for your mom or brother or your close friend.
I mean LOVE that absolutely consumes you, puts you out of control and lasts forever. If you love someone and don`t feel any lust and passion for him/her then there`s something wrong and something is definitely missing.

On the other hand, there`s definitely lust without love. But that`s a different story and I don`t know much about it.



Re: Jack's feelings for Ennis: LOVE or LUST?   
  by andros12     (Mon Jul 31 2006 20:33:22 )   
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If you love someone and don't feel any lust or passion for him/her then there's something wrong...


Luna

You've got my vote.
Re: Jack's feelings for Ennis: LOVE or LUST?   
  by ringer7     (Mon Jul 31 2006 22:57:02 )   
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homosexuality may be a genetic defect...but homosexuals can still feel love
Re: Jack's feelings for Ennis: LOVE or LUST?   
  by doelcm     (Mon Jul 31 2006 23:31:17 )   
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homosexuality may be a genetic defect...but homosexuals can still feel love
I'd use the word "variation" rather than "defect". If homosexuality were truly a defect, natural selection would have bred it out of humanity.

I think there are benefits to humanity to have a minority population that isn't focused on breeding.
-----
I love Mister Bungee--yes indeedy (here's your ziti)!
Re: Jack's feelings for Ennis: LOVE or LUST?   
  by fuxy_brown     (Tue Aug 1 2006 10:33:08 )   
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what three words does he mouth when holding the shirts??


Someone please answer my question!!





"Does Barry Manilow know that you raid his wardrobe?"
- John Bender, The Breakfast Club
Re: Jack's feelings for Ennis: LOVE or LUST?   
  by djo-17     (Tue Aug 1 2006 15:46:13 )   
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To *beep* brown: This is a ****SPOILER**** He actually "breathes" the words, which he does as he takes a deep breath while holding the cuff of Jack's shirtsleeve to his mouth, Here they are! "I LOVE YOU!"



"Tell you what. Sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it."





Doug O'Connor
Ennis does say 'I love you'...   
  by toycoon      (Fri Aug 11 2006 18:52:39 )   
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but it doesn't matter because there's no one there to hear it.
Re: Ennis does say 'I love you'...   
  by djo-17     (Sat Aug 12 2006 09:10:42 )   
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To toycoon: You got it! That's the gut-wrenching thing about this scene. This is what Ennis felt for twenty years, but didn't say it, until too late. This is further proof that their relationship was built on more than just the physical connection between them.

"Well, he used to say it was his favorite place. I thought it meant to get drunk, he drank a lot."



Doug O'Connor
Re: Jack's feelings for Ennis: LOVE or LUST?   
  by Mister_Magoo     (Fri Aug 25 2006 00:19:48 )   
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"I mean LOVE that absolutely consumes you, puts you out of control and lasts forever."
Re: Jack's feelings for Ennis: LOVE or LUST?   
  by taj_e     (Tue Aug 1 2006 14:48:28 )   
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I agree with Panam, but of course lust is also there. There's nothing wrong to lust for your 'loved one'
The tragedy is, their love was never communicated and when Ennis finally uttered it (well almost... Jack, I swear... it was a little too late)
But of course the good thing is, Ennis knew he had been loved and so loved, it took Jack's life to 'free' him
Re: Jack's feelings for Ennis: LOVE or LUST?   
  by fuxy_brown     (Tue Aug 1 2006 15:44:05 )   
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what three words does he mouth when holding the shirts??


Someone please answer my question!!


"Does Barry Manilow know that you raid his wardrobe?"
- John Bender, The Breakfast Club
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Re: Jack's feelings for Ennis: LOVE or LUST?   
  by stitchbuffymoulinfan     (Fri Aug 11 2006 19:32:18 )   
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It was undeniably love. The longing glances, the ease and comfort and elation Jack felt around Ennis, the shirt he stole as a souvenir of that magical, first summer together, the heartbreak and despair he felt when he wasn't with Ennis, the way he longed to be with him when he was with Lureen, the seeming disinterest and discomfort Jack felt when Randall hit on him (this is a whole different debate; I don't think he was very interested), the fact that he stayed with Ennis for 20 years. He lived a lie with Lureen, he used a prostitute (and maybe Randall) for sex, but no one else ever captured his heart the way Ennis did. Jack was in love until it psychologically killed him, and then some.

www.jlodown.com
www.petitionspot.com/petitions/jlodown
Re: Jack's feelings for Ennis: LOVE or LUST?   
  by panam231     (Fri Aug 11 2006 21:01:10 )   
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It was love dam it, cant you see it??? cause i can see the love a mile away. And im not even gay and i can tell these two guys fall in love with each other. Take a good look, is in they eyes. (God thats what u call good acting, why did they not win an OSCAR is beyond me)
Re: Jack's feelings for Ennis: LOVE or LUST?   
  by djo-17     (Sat Aug 12 2006 09:24:53 )   
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To panam231: It's beyond me, too. One thing about a movie like this, is that the cast was involved in a totally "novel concept", it's called "ACTING". Apparently, REAL acting that "delivers the goods" isn't necessarily rewarded in "Hollywood". Heath,Michelle, and Jake deserved their nominations, and it would have been nice to see them take home some well-earned hardware. There will be other opportunities, no doubt. Heath as "The Joker"? Hmmmm! I think he's up to the challenge!


"Well, whatever happened to August?"




Doug O'Connor
Re: Jack's feelings for Ennis: LOVE or LUST?   
  by idgeet     (Thu Aug 24 2006 23:03:50 )   
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i would use the word "passion" instead of "lust."

"...later." 
Re: Jack's feelings for Ennis: LOVE or LUST?   
  by Pendolse13     (Thu Aug 24 2006 23:42:28 )   
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(Still hasn't seen the movie, but still knows enough to voice an opinion. Friend is too booked up to watch with. ]: )

I'm thinking Ennis started out with drunken lust which slowly turned to love.

Jack is just a big ball of love and lust... but mostly love

!~SQURRELLY WRATH UPON THEE~!
Re: Jack's feelings for Ennis: LOVE or LUST?   
  by djo-17     (Sat Aug 26 2006 09:16:27 )   
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UPDATED Sat Aug 26 2006 09:17:10
To idgeet: You're right! The word "passion" has a more positive sound, which is in keeping with the dignity of this story and film. Thanks for the input!


"You pair of deuces lookin' for work, I suggest you get your scrawny asses in here, pronto!"


Doug O'Connor

[TOoP/Bruce]

(many posts deleted)

Re: Jack's feelings for Ennis: LOVE or LUST?   
  by djo-17     (Sun Aug 27 2006 12:32:29 )   
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To meanderingtrevor: I agree. Whether we call it "lust" or "passion" it does come into the picture, especially when we first meet someone. The physical "chemistry" is certainly there. Some call it "infatuation", which quite often, although not in every case, tends to die out like exploding fireworks after only a brief time.
In the case of Ennis and Jack, however, even though there was some initial physical attraction, especially on Jack's part, their relationship gradually developed on a more emotional level and was much deeper than any purely physical attraction would be. True, Jack ended up making some bad decisions by going with other men, but he only wanted to be with Ennis, and these were merely poor substitutes which in the end, may have led to his eventual undoing, and becoming the victim of a hate crime.
These were two men who were products of their environment and the times in which they lived, and subject to all of the pressures and homophobia that existed then. This influenced their relationship, and all the decisions they each made, whether for good or bad.
Hopefully, things will gradually change for the better, as more understanding and tolerance take over, and people can live their lives in peace, free from outside interference. (Hopefully I'm not just dreaming here!)

"I got your card. The divorce came through. So here I am."




Doug O'Connor
Re: Jack's feelings for Ennis: LOVE or LUST?   
  by andros12     (Mon Aug 28 2006 20:07:37 )   
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Interesting comment djo9449. At my job today, a unionized environment, the employees were gathered together and read the riot act on "harassment: "no prejudicial remarks toward one another concerning religion, race, creed, sexuality or sexual orientation will be tolerated and such comments will be dealt with immediately and become possible grounds for dismissal."

Could it be the times, "they are a changin?"
Re: Jack's feelings for Ennis: LOVE or LUST?   
  by djo-17     (Tue Aug 29 2006 16:04:39 )   
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UPDATED Tue Aug 29 2006 16:05:27
To andros12: I hope you are right. In many areas things are changing for the better no doubt. What concerns me is any backlash to rules such as you mentioned. If someone does get terminated for going against such reasonable regulations, one can only imagine the "act or acts of revenge" that might possible take place. We can legislate against, and make acts of hatred and prejudice as unacceptable as we want, but sadly, unless people are moved from the heart to make the necessary changes, there will always be some risk of this sort of intolerance continuing for quite some time to come. Those who have been educated otherwise, now, and in the future will be the ones to finally make these positive changes stick.
Just as a side point, here where I live in the Province of Alberta, Canada, the same-sex marriage debate is still alive and well, even though federal law, as it stands now allows it. There was an attempt here to frame legislation that civil servants or other non-religious marriage agents shouldn't be required to perform same-sex marriages if it violates their particular moral or religious belief. This proposal died on the order paper in the Alberta Legislature today. Although I agree with the principle that no one should be fired from their job for refusing to do this, and many gay couples no doubt wouldn't want someone to marry them if they were that set agasinst it, I can still see a backlash developing against what gay people have already gained so far. Hopefully, tolerance and balance will prevail. We'll have to see when the whole issue comes before the House of Commons in Ottawa when there will be a "free vote" to decide once and for all what the legal status of gay couples who are currently married or are planning to do so will be.
The times, they are a changin' for sure!

"You boys sure found a way to make the time pass up there."

Doug O'Connor
Re: Jack's feelings for Ennis: LOVE or LUST?   
  by andros12     (Tue Aug 29 2006 18:34:27 )   
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djo9449: Although many might not agree, I think there's been many positive changes initially triggered by the industrial revolution. It helped break down many fomerly existing rigid class and social systems and paved the way for many people to reach their potential by helping to provide increased opportunities to secure a place in society based on natural interest, ability and talent. For example, I'm aware of many women delivery drivers, caretakers and carpenters who thrive on their jobs and are loving them. After supper, it's off to play ball. Rarely is it mentioned that anyone at work gave them any trouble. The bottom line is they're greatly appreciated because they're the best at what they do.
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Re: Jack's feelings for Ennis: LOVE or LUST?   
  by rickxx     (Tue Aug 29 2006 16:27:42 )   
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UPDATED Tue Aug 29 2006 17:37:10
Jack Went to Mexico because he was HORNY. He Went to Ennis because he was in love as well as being horny. Wyoming is too far from Texas, just for satisfying lust, when Mexico ism't much more than 2 hours away.
LOVE or LUST?   
  by toycoon      (Tue Aug 29 2006 20:55:49 )   
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The debate continues.....
Re: LOVE or LUST?   
  by dly64      (Wed Aug 30 2006 07:51:52 )   
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Jack didn't go to Mexico because he was horny. Yes, he had physical needs that were not being met. He went to Mexico, however, after he realized that his dream of a life with Ennis would never happen. It was borne out of frustration and need. When Jack goes to Mexico, it is an incredibly devastating scene. That whole incident signals a shift in Ennis and Jack’s relationship … a death of a dream. The only time you hear Jack talking about the life they could have had together was at the lake scene. Yes, he tried to compromise by getting Ennis to move closer, but he didn’t bring up the “sweet life.” By the lake scene, Jack had become resigned to the fact that Ennis could not give of himself in a way that Jack had dreamed. (“All this time and you ain’t find nobody else to marry?”)


Diane

"We're supposed to guard the sheep, not eat 'em" - Ennis, BBM
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Re: LOVE or LUST?   
  by Belindah     (Wed Aug 30 2006 16:22:20 )   
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UPDATED Wed Aug 30 2006 16:30:22
You don't kiss somebody on the mouth, repeatedly and passionately, if you're just in it for lust. Plain and simple.
Golly, basicgrate, I'm speechless!   
  by toycoon      (Wed Aug 30 2006 16:29:59 )   
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What in the heck are you talkin' about?

Sheeeet, I'm I the next fan to snap?
Geez BG!   
  by dly64      (Wed Aug 30 2006 18:30:02 )   
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Basicgrate, where in God's creation do you come up with this stuff?? I try to be perceptive and thoughtful. I am usually one who tries to find areas of consensus and dissention. Why? Because I love to debate. But, geez, BG … I don’t even know where to start delving into this one!  UNCLE! UNCLE! I give! 


Diane

"We're supposed to guard the sheep, not eat 'em" - Ennis, BBM
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Re: Geez BG!   
  by dly64      (Thu Aug 31 2006 08:04:29 )   
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basicgrate quote: Now, wait a minute... are you kidding? You do know that I'm kidding... right?

Jack is the chupacabra... his truck magically appeared... fairy dust...

C'mon. You really did know that I was kidding. Right? You had to.


Honestly ... I thought you'd lost your *beep* mind! I thought you were pulling a Tom Cruise on me! LORDY! Am I thankful you clarified that you haven't gone Bellevue bait on me!

PS I have become aware of TxMike. Yep ... a piece of work to be sure! 


Diane

"We're supposed to guard the sheep, not eat 'em" - Ennis, BBM
Re: Geez BG!   
  by daphne7661     (Thu Aug 31 2006 08:20:19 )   
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Now, wait a minute... are you kidding? You do know that I'm kidding... right?

Jack is the chupacabra... his truck magically appeared... fairy dust...

C'mon. You really did know that I was kidding. Right? You had to.


I am cracking up laughing. I love BBM as much as the next guy/gal, but I am not anywhere near as good at dissecting and analyzing the symbolism and finding the bookends and debating and whatnot as the rest of you, and I knew, basicgrate, that you were kidding...

Pretty proud 'a muhself for it, too!!!

 


...Nice to know ya, Ennis del Mar...
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Re: Geez BG!   
  by dly64      (Thu Aug 31 2006 11:43:53 )   
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I can say, yes BG, I got a big laugh out of it. I just thought you were going a bit daffy. How does one respond to that?! 

Diane

"We're supposed to guard the sheep, not eat 'em" - Ennis, BBM
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Re: Geez BG!   
  by dly64      (Thu Aug 31 2006 11:55:42 )   
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It's the destructive effects of my internalized rural Brokebackitis.

I wouldn't doubt it! I was about ready to diagnose your delusional behavior but thought I'd better humor you. One can never tell how an individual will respond to his/her internalized rural Brokebackitis. You know ... you could have been violent!


Diane

"We're supposed to guard the sheep, not eat 'em" - Ennis, BBM
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Re: Geez BG!   
  by dly64      (Thu Aug 31 2006 12:03:35 )   
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Me? Nah. More'n likely I woulda just broke down in a alley somewheres and heaved.

 


Diane

"We're supposed to guard the sheep, not eat 'em" - Ennis, BBM
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Re: Geez BG!   
  by Clyde-B     (Thu Aug 31 2006 16:36:12 )   
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BG, thanks for fessing up. For a minute there, I thought you'd watched the movie one time too many.
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basicgrate, I thought you was bonkers!   
  by toycoon      (Thu Aug 31 2006 16:47:42 )   
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I had the feelin' you were playin' but I wasn't sure. I should have know better than that.
What, me worry?
Re: LOVE or LUST?   
  by spiceylife     (Thu Aug 31 2006 22:42:21 )   
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basicgrate, I laughed & laughed & laughed at your post, until I couldn't see the screen. Hilarious tongue-in-cheek from basicgrate! But then I had a moment there when I wondered whether I was actually supposed to be laughing so damn hard, especially when others hesitated, too. Wait... this is supposed to be funny, right?

Then I read this again :-

This is a bird omen. Notice how immediately AFTER the Mexico scene, we see a turkey. This is another bird omen. But the bird has gone from alive to dead. This is because Jack killed the bird. He had to. It’s his nature. He’s the chupacabra. A horny-headed jackalope creature from Mexico. When Jack went to Mexico, he was going there to get his imposing spirit re-infused with chupacabra magic. This is because his façade was starting to fade and his horns were starting to show. That’s why he always wore a hat. To cover those horns.

And this :-

Old Man Twist – now there’s a real demon – is there to block the passage of Ennis from worldly reality to the spirit world. But Mrs. Twist is the good fairy who offers Ennis some of her fairy dust (the cherry cake!) to be able to overcome the demon. Now we all know that Ennis is homosexual. And what do some people call homosexuals? Especially back then? Fairies. Ennis has finally figured himself out with the help of the Jack-spirit-chupacabra so he didn’t need the fairy dust (cherry cake!) of Mrs. Twist.

And finally this :-

Notice that in “Legend,” Tom’s character’s name was JACK! And when Tom didn’t get the role, what did he do? He went nuts on national TV and showed us all that he is a jumping JACKrabbit kind of spirited fellow. And he did it on Oprah. Oh, that's interesting! On Oprah! The same show that the whole cast of BBM appeared. Coincidence? I think not.

and I laughed & laughed again! This is brilliant, basicgrate. I loved it! Maybe you just needed one of these  in there somewhere because I guess we're kinda used to serious, analytical posts about Brokeback, & we weren't quite sure what to do when a funny appeared!

You should write professionally - you have a great talent there, & a real way with words (& comedy).
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Re: LOVE or LUST?   
  by dly64      (Fri Sep 1 2006 06:41:47 )   
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basigrate: I didn't put any smileys in because I wanted people to come to a slow awareness. The first paragraph sounds like something I would seriously say. Then the second, with Ennis not seeing Jack... I was hoping people would say "huh?" And then I figured they'd be really confused until they got to "chupacabra." I was sure that would be a dead give-away. I was kind of surprised to find that several people were really uncertain even after having read the entire thing.


As I said ... I thought you lost your beanie! That whole ... Ennis didn't see Jack thing ... I thought you were saying (as only you can) that Ennis couldn't see Jack (i.e. his inner most being)! But then you went into that whole bird thing .... OMG!I thought ... "what drugs are BG taking? Never mix alcohol and drugs!

BTW - if you haven't figured it out by now, I am the most gullible person you will ever meet! PATHETIC! 

Diane

"We're supposed to guard the sheep, not eat 'em" - Ennis, BBM
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Lust can be part of love, can't it??   
  by malina-5     (Fri Sep 1 2006 03:38:38 )   
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So, um, maybe, BOTH?
Re: Lust can be part of love, can't it??   
  by djo-17     (Sat Sep 2 2006 09:39:19 )   
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To malina-5: I guess you could answer yes to your question. If we are totally honest with ourselves, the "physical chemistry" is usually a big part of the initial attraction in any relationship. What happened between Ennis and Jack was based on their rapidly developing friendship, which went hand-in-hand with the physical connection. If they hadn't been at least somewhat "comfortable" with each other, I would think that nothing would have happened between them. If this relationship was built purely on "lust" or "unbridled passion", it probably would have died-out after that first summer. As I have mentioned before, it would be like fireworks that are spectacular at first, but then quickly fade away after only a few brief moments.
So I would have to say that it is a little bit of both, but true,loving, meaningful relationships are built gradually, and tend to last much longer.
That's my "two bits worth" anyway. I'm sure there are other insightful thoughts out there!

"Once in awhile. Every four *BEEP* years?"




Doug O'Connor
Re: Lust can be part of love, can't it??   
  by malina-5     (Sat Sep 2 2006 10:50:30 )   
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<<What happened between Ennis and Jack was based on their rapidly developing friendship, which went hand-in-hand with the physical connection>>

Yes. But this is exactly what I mean. They were very much in love. They were very much in lust. They were friends (they would have been friends even without those other two factors, IMO) but their friendship was intensified and spurred on by their love/ lust. It was ALL there. That's what's so wonderful. Personally I can't separate out one of those 'threads' of their relationship from the other. It was magical and forceful because it was just all there, all at once.

Saying that lust was a factor is in no way the same thing as claiming that it was "only lust" or "based purely on lust". Obviously not. we wouldn't have much of a story in that case.

Personally I'm a bit distressed by the tendency/ need to separate out 'pure' love from lust. That takes us right back to the medieval sacred/ profane, madonna/ whore dichotomy, which I think has done way more harm than good in the world and in the way we percieve things.

Or to put it another way, I think the love between Ennis and Jack was pure and lasting and 'on a higher plane' than everyday reality. And I would say exactly the same about the lust. It was absolutely the whole package, nothing left out. Wholeness.

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Re: Lust can be part of love, can't it??   
  by malina-5     (Sat Sep 2 2006 11:16:54 )   
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Exactly!

And when you say "intense sexuality - 'lust' is such a loaded word" I think that's true... but that we've got to ask WHY is lust such a loaded word that we would even hesitate to use it regarding something we regard as sacred? And do we agree with the negative 'loading' of that word (I don't).

It's all very interesting because i was just thinking, the other day, while reading one of the joke threads (I think it was the 'Ennis and Jack in therapy' thing, which didn't start out as a joke thread but developed into one)

I was just thinking I love how easily we can move from the sacred to the profane and back again talking about this movie, as if there is no separation.

Because there isn't. Just one more of the many gifts of BBM.
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Re: Lust can be part of love, can't it??   
  by malina-5     (Sat Sep 2 2006 12:43:52 )   
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"There is no love there - they are not faithful to each other ."

Not that I want to perpetuate this argument, but I have to say this.

That is just about the dumbest and blindest thing I have ever heard in my entire life.
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Re: Lust can be part of love, can't it??   
  by malina-5     (Sat Sep 2 2006 13:08:36 )   
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<<Are they faithful to each other or not ? >>

Is never having sex with anyone else the one and only measurement of whether love exists? And if that external demonstration of faithfulness is not present, does that automatically reduce the amount of love present to nil, as per your judgement that there was "no love" between Jack and Ennis?

By your earlier post I can infer that your answer to both questions is yes.

And if that's the case, I am sending you my wishes for a speedy recovery from whatever form of brainwashing you have been subjected to that causes you to see the world in such an absurd and simplistic way.

It may feel nice and cozy comfortable for you to be able to see things only in black and white. But it's pretty heartbreaking to think of how much you must be missing.

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Re: Lust can be part of love, can't it??   
  by Clyde-B     (Sat Sep 2 2006 13:21:56 )   
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Are they faithful to each other or not ?


Emotionally definitely yes.

Physically definitely no.

Before you reply, remember, you have established that love and lust are not the same thing.
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Re: Lust can be part of love, can't it??   
  by dly64      (Sat Sep 2 2006 15:18:01 )   
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meanderingtrevor IMO the word 'faithful' or 'unfaithful' is irrelevant in the context of the story/film because it implies blame or judgement. The words are loaded with the idea of virtue versus sin and the plot doesn't require us to take that stance.


As always, interesting and different POV/ perspective. I guess it is more accurate to say monogamous (in terms of men. Women seemed to be excluded from the equation since both Jack and Ennis knew that it wasn’t what either one desired) and we know that Jack was not. I am sure it was not talked about directly, but it seems obvious (in the lake scene) that Ennis expected theirs to be an exclusive relationship. Jack understood it the same way, but could not do it …. his frustration and sexual needs became too great. On an emotional level, Jack was incredibly committed to Ennis. In some ways more so than Ennis.

Diane

"We're supposed to guard the sheep, not eat 'em" - Ennis, BBM
Re: Lust can be part of love, can't it??   
  by Clyde-B     (Sat Sep 2 2006 12:52:06 )   
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There is no love there - they are not faithful to each other .


Ah, but they are...

They never connect emotionally with anyone else but each other through the whole course of the story.

That's the point.
Re: Lust can be part of love, can't it??   
  by pockethankie      (Sat Sep 2 2006 14:08:48 )   
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Yep, it's love, that once in a lifetime soul mate kind of love....it would never have survived all the trials and tribulations if it had not been. Lust and superficial love would have made a line like "I wish I knew how to quit you" ridiculous and out of place because lust and superficial emotions are fleeting and selfish and walk away easily when finished.


It's in your moments of decision that your destiny is shaped
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Re: Lust can be part of love, can't it??   
  by Clyde-B     (Mon Sep 4 2006 20:47:15 )   
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how can it be love when both of them were cheating on their wives for years? only a slimball weasel would do something like that


Whether you want to believe it or not, there is more depth and breadth to the world than your cartoonish version allows.

There are no good guys or bad guys, there are only people, each of whom is trying to do the best they can with what they know at the time.

The only way to come to know that is to step outside of yourself and try 'walking a mile in another man's shoes.' Which is something I don't think you have any interest in doing.
Re: Lust can be part of love, can't it??   
  by dly64      (Tue Sep 5 2006 05:55:41 )   
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Clyde-B: Whether you want to believe it or not, there is more depth and breadth to the world than your cartoonish version allows.

There are no good guys or bad guys, there are only people, each of whom is trying to do the best they can with what they know at the time.

The only way to come to know that is to step outside of yourself and try 'walking a mile in another man's shoes.' Which is something I don't think you have any interest in doing.


   

It is because of the ignorance of types like "spork" where it becomes a necessary part of survival for some gays to live a straight life while loving a man. Had there been an open acceptance with no fear of retaliation, Ennis and Jack wouldn't have felt the necessity to marry (their wives) in the first place.

Diane

"We're supposed to guard the sheep, not eat 'em" - Ennis, BBM
Re: Lust can be part of love, can't it??   
  by ScissorhandsRaineyluv     (Mon Sep 18 2006 16:48:37 )   
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Bump.

Great thread.

"Should he tell her? Should he not tell her? He's torn, Georgie. This is drama." Ed Wood
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Re: Jack's feelings for Ennis: LOVE or LUST?   
  by jackie-77     (Mon Nov 20 2006 23:23:04 )   
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Some good posts in this thread. I don't want it to fall off the board tonight. (Reading it is much more enjoyable if you put AdMajoremDeiGloriam on Ignore, though.)

Jackie
Re: Jack's feelings for Ennis: LOVE or LUST?   
  by djo-17     (Tue Nov 21 2006 20:39:05 )   
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jackie: You got that right! The best response to IGNORance, is to click IGNORE!

Doug O'Connor
Re: Jack's feelings for Ennis: LOVE or LUST?   
  by jackie-77     6 days ago (Tue Dec 5 2006 14:12:24 )   
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bump
Re: Jack's feelings for Ennis: LOVE or LUST?   
  by Isaac5855     5 days ago (Wed Dec 6 2006 11:25:10 )   
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If Jack didn't truly love Ennis, he wouldn't have been so heartbroken when Ennis told him they couldn't be together after the divorce because his daughters were with him...those tears were not lack-of-sex tears...those tears were someone in love being kept from someone they love.