What's the point of the fireworks scene? --- by unknown --- 2 of 3
by ClancyPantsDelMar (Sat Oct 28 2006 15:01:20 )
Hi latjoreme –
How’s tricks?
I like what you had to say about separating motivation from justification – this is a very good way of approaching the scene. However, doesn’t motivation kind of trump justification? When one looks at the big picture? And that’s kind of what we’re supposed to do, it seems, given the way the scene ends with that iconic shot of Ennis.
To others around Ennis, they may be quite pleased that someone took the initiative to stand up to the thugs. But we, the audience, know more… more than Alma ever will know. (Tips his hat to LaShawn.) He’s framed as a hero, but given what we know in totality, we must step back and say “Aw, shucks, Ennis… you really need to straighten yourself out before you start workin’ at those guys.”
I like the comment by ka_baerchen:
“It simply shows that Ennis is not very confident in himself and thinks he has to prove that he is a tough guy, as he gets no proof from his own feelings.”
I think there’s a certain element of emotional maturity being examined here – as throughout the film.
As mooninbalance said:
“So the heroic thing to do is just keep quiet or slink away away with your family? I don't think you'll get many 22 year old cowboys to agree with you.”
The key words here are “22 year old.” I agree wholeheartedly that young and immature people who have not come to a mature plane in life would find this an acceptable solution. It takes maturity to understand that the “heroic” man – hell, the “real man” – gets up and proudly moves his family. This was not Ennis del Mar.
BTW – when I brought up Matt Dillon beating up rustlers, I should have stated what I assumed readers may associate with him: That he was not the kind of man to initiate a whoopin’ unless and until the other guy pulled out his gun or his bravado.
Finally, someone might say that strong backs and weak minds run in Ennis’ family, and if they’d ask me if I agreed, I’d have to say “I sure do.” Ennis’ actions make it seem as if he’s performing a duty. He’d probably defend himself to Alma by saying “Pulling bulls outta that celebration is just my job.” What could Alma say? “Ever try calf-roping?” (4 in 1 minors, lat)
by latjoreme (Sat Oct 28 2006 15:56:51 )
Finally, someone might say that strong backs and weak minds run in Ennis’ family, and if they’d ask me if I agreed, I’d have to say “I sure do.” Ennis’ actions make it seem as if he’s performing a duty. He’d probably defend himself to Alma by saying “Pulling bulls outta that celebration is just my job.” What could Alma say? “Ever try calf-roping?” (4 in 1 minors, lat)
I believe that's a record!
I like what you had to say about separating motivation from justification – this is a very good way of approaching the scene.
Thanks!
However, doesn’t motivation kind of trump justification? When one looks at the big picture?
You mean in all cases or just in this one? Not always, IMO. This time, maybe.
What's I find most interesting about this scene is that, once again, the filmmakers are messing around with expectations and cliches and myths. The bikers genuinely ARE obnoxious. So whether we think Ennis makes the right move or not, it's not completely indefensible. On the surface, he's just doing what classic Western heroes have always done: stood up to the bad guys and run them outta town.
But knowing Ennis' motivations creates a far different picture. So it upturns all our assumptions about that classic American scenario. That it takes place on July 4th, fireworks exploding in the background, underscores the point.
by ClancyPantsDelMar (Sat Oct 28 2006 16:16:52 )
Hi latjoreme –
“What's I find most interesting about this scene is that, once again, the filmmakers are messing around with expectations and cliches and myths.”
Yes! This is so true. The iconic masculine cowboy revealed.
“The bikers genuinely ARE obnoxious. So whether we think Ennis makes the right move or not, it's not completely indefensible.”
True.
“On the surface, he's just doing what classic Western heroes have always done: stood up to the bad guys and run them outta town.”
True. But most westerns don’t examine the justifications and motivations. It’s accepted as “cowboy heroic.” Here, these concepts are examined across several scenes showing the cowboy myth of “hero” in such a case to be nothing more than testosterone run amok.
“But knowing Ennis' motivations creates a far different picture. So it upturns all our assumptions about that classic American scenario. That it takes place on July 4th, fireworks exploding in the background, underscores the point.”
Exactly. This is why this scene is so appropriately placed and well-managed. When one looks behind the seemingly obvious – which, of course, can be taken as “over-the-top heroic imagery supplanted over an overtly patriotic background” – and sees the truer messages concerning the character and his situation, then this scene becomes one of the movie’s standouts to highlight Ennis’ weakness of character.
by mooninbalance (Sat Oct 28 2006 16:54:28 )
Well, it's clear by now that you must have a pretty bad crush on the sweet bikers, and are apparently one of those hypercivilized gays living in another dimension from what most men, certainly young Wyoming roughnecks in 1966 were living in.
We'll take your advice and the next time somebody tries to bash us or insult our families, we'll get in touch with our wussy side and act like a little girl.
Of course, some of us might decide to act like a strong gay *man.*
Sorry that approach seems to offend you.
by ClancyPantsDelMar (Sat Oct 28 2006 17:17:14 )
Hi mooninbalance --
My goodness. You caught me off guard here. I thought we were friends on this board and then you throw out something like:
"Well, it's clear by now that you must have a pretty bad crush on the sweet bikers, and are apparently one of those hypercivilized gays living in another dimension from what most men, certainly young Wyoming roughnecks in 1966 were living in."
Where in the world did this come from?
"We'll take your advice and the next time somebody tries to bash us or insult our families, we'll get in touch with our wussy side and act like a little girl."
The bikers were not shown as gay bashers. There is no gay-bash dimension to this scene at all.
I'm really surprised at your reaction here. I hope it's a "bad day" moment and not that I've misjudged you.
by ka_baerchen (Sat Oct 28 2006 17:56:53 )
UPDATED Sun Oct 29 2006 05:55:08
Ok, now you don't seem to understand, tough one. I'll explain it to you one more time:
It is totally fine to protect your family from any harm whatsoever. And it would be completely fair to beat up the guys if they were threatening or insulting his family (to be honest, I would expect that from anyone caring for his friends/family, not just ones with "cowboy ethic", and you can be assured that I have "beaten up" guys verbally attacking someone I cared for).
The point is, they don't do anything like that! They don't threaten his family nor do they insult them! All they do is making fun of HIM. The crux of matter is that they make fun of his sexuality, nothing else. That's the trigger for his violent behaviour and no harm towards his family. Watch the scene again. Alma is not insulted, she is just in fear of Ennis bursting behaviour!
In that case, Ennis is not protecting his family, but protecting his anxiety and fear of being seen as wimpy and not a "strong" man, as you say. Anyone confident with himself would never ever consider dealing with stupid guys like that, they would ignore them or do whatever they do. But they would most certainly not beat them up just like that and put their family in fear and danger.
If he was sensitive to his family, he would listen to what Alma says. Ergo, he is just self-absorbed in that instant and simply feeds his frustration and inner doubts, nothing more. Has nothing to do with acting "strong", more like acting "weak". And has nothing to do with whether it's 1966, 2006 or "cowboy ethic".
I'm not offended easily and certainly not about you stating another opinion. But I'm offended right now that you're personally attacking me just because I think differently (whereas you and I seem to come across from different angles on that subject and you're not really trying to understand) and you seem to run dry on arguments... this is very sad.
by latjoreme (Sat Oct 28 2006 18:06:00 )
UPDATED Sat Oct 28 2006 20:47:25
Well, it's clear by now that you must have a pretty bad crush on the sweet bikers, and are apparently one of those hypercivilized gays living in another dimension from what most men, certainly young Wyoming roughnecks in 1966 were living in.
We'll take your advice and the next time somebody tries to bash us or insult our families, we'll get in touch with our wussy side and act like a little girl.
That's harsh, mooninbalance. Don't get personal.
As I said in my post, I think there's an argument to be made that -- judging only by provocation and outcome -- Ennis had reason to get physically aggressive with bikers who are ruining a nice holiday. If you want to make that argument, fine!
But a lot of people feel otherwise. Myself included. Of course I am a former little girl (and BTW, I can't begin to tell you how much I hate it when "girl" is used as some ultimate insult or a synonym for "coward" or "weakling"). And there's no need to get rude with people who happen to hold a view that's different from yours.
I have a friend who is constantly getting enraged at perceived insults by strangers -- in stores, on buses, whatever -- and, when telling the story later, will tell me how close he came to beating up the jerk. I just roll my eyes. If he did so, he'd risk causing far more pain and trouble: for himself, for bystanders, maybe even for the jerk who was obnoxious but still doesn't quite deserve a beating. Is some stupid verbal insult worth all that? In a way, whether my friend "won" the fight or not, the jerk would have won.
Sometimes violence is unavoidable. But often, ignoring people like that really is the stronger and braver and more mature reaction.
by ClancyPantsDelMar (Sat Oct 28 2006 18:13:15 )
OK... Now I'm REALLY confused!
Was mooninbalance talking to:
ClancyPantsDelMar
ka_baerchen
-- or -- to
latjoreme
-- or --
to all three of us?
by xdreamfly (Sat Oct 28 2006 23:31:03 )
Hm, quite honestly I was with mooninbalance for punching bikers, that is until I watched the scene over again; Bikers do not insult Ennis or his family directly when they come in, they are just being their rude selves; that of course changes the situation. I don't think it is justifiable to punch people for being themselves (no matter how much you don't like it), unless there is a direct threat or insult.
But then the bikers tell Ennis to *beep* off, and considering Ennis's character I would not expect him to do anything else but punch them; just like I wouldn't expect bikers to quiet down after Ennis told them to shut up.
And then their comment "he probably stopped giving it to his wife" rubbed Ennis the wrong way for all the obvious reasons.
by ka_baerchen (Sun Oct 29 2006 05:30:51 )
he was talking to me :-)
by ka_baerchen (Sun Oct 29 2006 06:37:22 )
To all:
Watch it again. I think the main focus in this scene is on the outcome. You see Alma standing away from Ennis with the kids in her arms. In addition, she is standing with her back towards him looking very fearful, this is much of a dismissive gesture to show that she doesn't think it was right, nor neccessary, and she is afraid of his behaviour, which isn't understandable for her, as she doesn't know his inner struggle.
On the other hand, Ennis looks at Alma and sees that his family isn't standing behind him, but away with their back on him. He finally realizes that he didn't do it for his family, but for his frustrated self and his family isn't behind him on that. You can see in his face that he is regretting what he'd done, at least he isn't happy about it.
I think Ang Lee wanted to show Ennis' emotional alienation from his family in the first place. He wanted to show that Ennis isn't ok with himself and is expressing a certain insecurity about himself that is affecting his family. This is triggered by the biker's comments on his sexuality and has nothing to do with his family whatsoever, which is why they stand away from him.
Which is also shown on how Alma made the comment to just move away, but Ennis wasn't listening. He was very much himself then and not part of the family.
I think this comment speaks very good for why Ang Lee chose to do it that way:
"What's I find most interesting about this scene is that, once again, the filmmakers are messing around with expectations and cliches and myths. The bikers genuinely ARE obnoxious. So whether we think Ennis makes the right move or not, it's not completely indefensible. On the surface, he's just doing what classic Western heroes have always done: stood up to the bad guys and run them outta town.
But knowing Ennis' motivations creates a far different picture. So it upturns all our assumptions about that classic American scenario. That it takes place on July 4th, fireworks exploding in the background, underscores the point."
by ClancyPantsDelMar (Sun Oct 29 2006 06:57:57 )
Hi ka_baerchen --
Excellent analysis and summary. I agree completely.
But don't take mooninbalance's comments all upon yourself. S/he very well may have been talking to any or all of the three of us. I offer my back for the whipping, too. Also, I'm still hopeful that it was just a “bad day” kind of thing. I hate seeing our family torn apart.
by mooninbalance (Sun Oct 29 2006 07:52:37 )
To anyone I may have offended: yes, I was specifically responding to ka_baerchen, who seems to be the most vehement in his disaproval of Ennis's behavior, sees the scene as non heroic, etc.
I normally view the threads in the 'nest' mode, and thought sure I clicked 'reply' specifically to his post. Usually in doing so, my reply will appear directly beneath the replied-to-post, (even if there are many posts following mine); so I thought one could tell who was the intended recipient that way - but perhaps not.
Sorry if I offended anyone, including 'ka'.
It's just that I see the scene one way, and while I'm usually able to be persuaded to partially accept other interpretations, this time I simply think his view is *wrong*, and ultimately a little annoying.
by mooninbalance (Sun Oct 29 2006 09:12:24 )
<<OK, now you don't seem to understand, tough one. I'll explain it to you one more time.>>
Ooh, you sound just like Ennis approaching the biker. :-) Maybe you should just ignore me, walk away, forget it.
Seriously, I guess we'll just have to "agree to disagree" on this one.
I think our main disagreement is that I'm willing to accept Ennis's behavior on his own terms, and you think he should be something he's not. I agree that his anger is probably more the expression of inner frustration than trying to be noble. But many an act of courage was prompted by sheer anger and frustration.
But that doesn't mean that he didn't have the right idea. Or that he was behaving differently from what 90% of young, strong cowboy types would have, under the circumstances.
I'm not particularly a "tough one."
I personally wouldn't take the same approach toward the bikers, because I'd probably just get my ass whipped. But I'm not the roughneck Ennis was, and I'm no longer 22. If I were, I probably would have done the same thing. It seems not inappropriate; and whether intentionally so, a good and right and noble thing. In fact, a *number* of men in the area should have stood up to the annoying jerks, and insist they shut up or leave; but they were afraid to get involved. Isn't it admirable that one man alone had the backbone to do so? It wasn't like Ennis was a crazed violence-prone troublemaker. He was just making a reasonable and decent request.
You seem to be conveniently forgetting the fact that he initially merely asked them to cut the dirty talk around the kids and other ladies who were also offended, as you can clearly see in one brief scene. When he told them again, one of the bikers begins to move toward assaulting him. It isn't reasonable to expect him to just stand there and be attacked. Most people fight to win, and he did.
It really is surprising how quickly bullies will give it up, once you stand up to them.
The amount of tolerance for the bikers expressed in this thread has puzzled me. Apparently, many members of our society have embraced a degree of rationalizing hypercivilization that would prefer any degradation or acceptance of bullying to standing up to it.
Not the cowboy way.
Finally, you make much of Alma's frightened reaction. What's so unusual about that? Women ordinarily are disturbed by violence, dislike witnessing brawls, etc. Also, she was protecting her babies by removing them some distance from the action. But you've completely lost me by insisting that Ennis should feel loss of self esteem at her *disapproval.* For one thing, you don't know that she did "disapprove". As I said, she was temporarily shocked. Hopefully, after things calmed down, she had character enough to be grateful and support Ennis, as he had supported and defended her and his kids, in his own way, as he saw fit. At any rate, it's sort of ludicrous to expect a man to feel embarrassed or a failure simply because someone doesn't understand or "approve" of him. Or whether his wife is "embarrassed" by him. Give me a break.
The fireworks explode and we should all celebrate something good: the spirit of the Great American Cowboy.
And the fact that even losers like Ennis, once in their lives, can win.
by xdreamfly (Sun Oct 29 2006 10:04:47 )
Mooninbalance wrote: "I personally wouldn't take the same approach toward the bikers, because I'd probably just get my ass whipped";
I would probably walk away from insults just because physically I wouldn't match up to bikers, but, unlike Clancy who would walk awayd proudly, I would be angry as hell and go punch the wall =) And no, I don't have anger management problem and normally some kind of stupid remarks don't get to me, but sometimes, some people just have to be run off or shut, so I really don't feel any remorse for bikers being punched.
