Question about the first bar scene with Jack and the clown
by - jshane2002 (Sun Feb 26 2006 18:13:30 )
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UPDATED Sun Feb 26 2006 22:38:49
Speaking of horses, not being a rancher or a rodeo cowboy, I was wondering about the exchange between Jack and the bartender in the first bar scene.
After the clown walks away from the bar, the bartender says to Jack, " ever consider calf roping "
Jack gets offended and says "Do I look like I can afford me a roping horse."
I didn't understand what they were talking about.
Some people are wondering " uh, what part of texas are you from ? "
Re: Question about the first bar scene with Jack and the clown
by - anml-lvr (Sun Feb 26 2006 18:15:38 )
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The bartender is referring to women....
He knows Jack is hitting on the clown.
Re: Question about the first bar scene with Jack and the clown
by - allovertheworld (Sun Feb 26 2006 18:28:47 )
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First of all, the lines were:
Bartender: "Ever try calf-roping?"
Jack: Do I look like I can afford a effing ropin' horse?"
Secondly, how does this mean that the bartender is suggesting that Jack should stick to women??? Curious how you came up with that conclusion. Calves are young bulls or cows (ie, males and females).
Re: Question about the first bar scene with Jack and the clown
by - Frank_Z (Sun Feb 26 2006 18:28:51 )
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<The bartender is referring to women.... >
Wow! Could you explain that? I wasn't getting that at all.
Re: Question about the first bar scene with Jack and the clown
by - Frank_Z (Sun Feb 26 2006 18:27:02 )
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OK, it's been a few weeks since I saw the movie, but the scene was more along this line:
Bartender: "Ever try calf-roping?"
Jack: "Do I look like I can afford a *beep* roping horse?"
Calf ropers have the highest status among rodeo cowboys. A good roping horse back then would have gone for several thousand dollars. Compare that to the $2000 Jack said he won all year one year and liked to starved. And he had no savings to begin with. And his father would not help him with anything. So Jack was kinda bitter about his status and how his rodeoing was going, and how even the rodeo clown thought he was to good to drink with him. And then the bartender makes a crack like that.
Not a good night for our friend, Jack.
calf roping means picking up people in a bar
by - balrog20-ressurected (Sun Feb 26 2006 19:14:13 )
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Yup, the bartender is speaking metaphorically. By calf-roping he means stay away from the experienced guys and try picking up women or maybe inexperienced guys.
Jack goes along with the metaphor. He is nervous, a little scared, and frustrated. He high tails it before he gets his butt whomped.
I always wondered how come you never brought any trouts home...
Metaphor?
by - Frank_Z (Sun Feb 26 2006 19:36:08 )
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That's an intriguing suggestion, but how do you arrive at that?
It's not an expression I am familiar with, in the metaphorical sense.
Re: Metaphor?
by - balrog20-ressurected (Sun Feb 26 2006 19:50:36 )
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Ok, I guess its hard to see the melon seeds without splitting the melon open.
Instead of trying to pick up a fully mature, and aware cowboy, (the bull) the bartender is suggesting to try picking up a woman or a less worldly guy (the calf).
Like my melon metaphor?
I always wondered how come you never brought any trouts home...
Re: Metaphor?
by - Frank_Z (Sun Feb 26 2006 20:14:04 )
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What I don't get is any sense of how a viewer is going to make the connection through some popular or classical allusion or reference.
That is, what is the basis for thinking that interpretation was intended? Is there some popular usage, some cultural context that I am not aware of that would indicate that a bartender in a small western town would make that sort of metaphorical reference in the mid-1960's?
Re: Metaphor?
by - RukiaCromwell (Sun Feb 26 2006 20:24:17 )
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I'm learning something new!
"Humans are cowards in the face of happiness. You need courage to hold on to happiness."-KG
Re: Metaphor?
by - balrog20-ressurected (Sun Feb 26 2006 20:43:04 )
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Well, they are in Texas, in the middle of cowboy country, at a sausage party. What could be a more appropriate setting to use a calf-roping metaphor for picking up a guy in a bar?
There isn't any classical reference. If you hadn't just observed the scene go down with Jimbo it wouldn't make any sense.
I guess even the mention of homosexuality is taboo in cowboy country. The bartender and Jimbo are quite aware of whats going on and yet neither mentions it directly. Jimbo storms off and the bartender becomes philosophical.
The bartender, being the most worldly of the 3 men here, offers some advice to Jack but dances around with his verbiage. You just can't tell a cowboy directly not to try to pick up men in a bar. You have to speak delicately, thus the calf roping line.
I always wondered how come you never brought any trouts home...
Re: Metaphor?
by - artsybaebe (Mon Feb 27 2006 00:10:41 )
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UPDATED Mon Feb 27 2006 00:11:49
Thanks, balrog, you're of course right. It truly boggles the mind how literal-minded people can be. I've been arguing the same thing on another thread about the scene in Newsome's shop where the guy says something like 'Ain't that the piss-ass that used to ride the bulls?" I suggested that it was obviously a metaphor for preferring men, ie literally riding four-legged animals = metaphorically 'riding'/having sex with men. and people jumped down my throat saying 'where did you get that', etc. In context it was clearly a derogatory insinuation about his sexual preferences. The scene you're discussing is the same kind of totally obvious reference, even if one didn't completely catch what he said. So thanks for explaining it so well.
Re: Metaphor?
by - venus_trap82 (Mon Feb 27 2006 08:53:00 )
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Hmm I thought he said "piss-ant" about him? It doesn't really matter, but still...
"You may be a sinner, but I ain't yet had the opportunity."
Re: Metaphor?
by - VirginiaGal (Mon Feb 27 2006 18:51:47 )
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He said pissant.
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Re: Metaphor?
by - galirora (Mon Feb 27 2006 17:55:31 )
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<<Thanks, balrog, you're of course right. It truly boggles the mind how literal-minded people can be. I've been arguing the same thing on another thread about the scene in Newsome's shop where the guy says something like 'Ain't that the piss-ass that used to ride the bulls?&amp;quot;>>
Yes and the other guy says "he used to try". How does that fit into your gay metaphor exactly?
<<In context it was clearly a derogatory insinuation about his sexual preferences.>>
It truly boggles my mind how some people insist on reading hidden meanings into dialogue that works just fine if it IS taken literally. Jack HAD been a bullrider, LITERALLY - and a not very successful one. Did you miss that somehow? It's much more likely that the two guys in the shop knew that about Jack, than that they knew he was gay. Their comments, made in front of Lureen, are derogatory about Jack and very humiliating for Lureen, just taken literally. The same people that insist these remarks must be a "metaphor" also say that Lureen's dad knew that Jack was gay, which is why he makes all the "stud duck" references. This is completely absurd -- in 1960's Texas, would Lureen's dad have allowed Jack ANYWHERE near his grandson, who is obviously the apple of his eye, if he found out, or even suspected, that Jack was gay? Get real!!! He would have blackmailed Jack into leaving the marriage, instead of offering to pay him off, or else had Jack beaten up or killed.
Sometimes the literal interpretation IS the one that makes the most sense and is the most effective.
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Re: Metaphor?
by - Frank_Z (Mon Feb 27 2006 21:33:04 )
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Thanks for the view from Texas, jay. It seems we have only minor differences that arise from our experience.
I was commenting on my experience in the midwest in the 1960's and 70's and things could well be different in other times and places. It might also vary depending on whether someone participated in a particular event.
There was a rodeo stock contractor in the neighborhood where I grew up, who put on rodeos in northern Missouri, southern Iowa and eastern Kansas and Nebraska. In that circuit, the calf ropers were considered to be smarter and more level headed and good with stock. They had nice rigs, kept at least one good horse, had a good set of tack, and generally dressed nicely. I equated that with higher status. And in this neck of the woods, calf ropers work alone. It was the bulldoggers (steer wrestlers) that had a hazer. The bullriders were considered to be a bit crazy, but I would not characterize that as high status. In fact, it seemed back then that the bull-riders were at the bottom of the pecking order among the men.
To comment on the film, it is interesting, in this vein, also, that Jimbo leaves Jack at the bar to go drink with the calf ropers.
Re: Metaphor?
by - flashframe777 (Mon Feb 27 2006 23:03:13 )
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Calf roping is somewhere down the line, after horseback riding and steer wrestling, though not as far as barrel racing. That's for women.
________________________________________
And how does this make what I said off base? Sounds pretty gay to me. And I'm sorry Gallrora, there is ALWAYS a deeper meaning behind anything extant in the world at any given moment. It's always a matter of how deep beneath the surface you choose to go.
Sometimes a cigar is also a plant grown by a Cuban farmer inspired by hard work and learned from his forefathers who learned to make them from the masters of old who were taught by the beings of old who cultivated the plant on a planet which revolves around a double sun solar system in the constellation of Aries.
"You bet." --Ennis del Mar
Re: Metaphor?
by - galirora (Tue Feb 28 2006 19:46:36 )
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UPDATED Tue Feb 28 2006 23:03:12
<<And I'm sorry Gallrora, there is ALWAYS a deeper meaning behind anything extant in the world at any given moment.>>
LOL - There isn't "always" ANYTHING in the world, except maybe a sunrise and a sunset every day.
But yes, sometimes a seemingly literal remark made by someone can have a deeper meaning that could be construed from it. However that DOESN'T necessarily mean that the deeper meaning was intended by the person who said it.
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Re: Metaphor?
by - flashframe777 (Tue Feb 28 2006 08:16:32 )
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The bartender's jibe was that Jack should maybe take up something a little easier, like calf roping.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Okay, I can live with that explanation. But I still say there's is at least a modicum of sexual innuendo going on there. Afterall, Jack has just solicited Jimbo for a roll in the sack, and involved the bartender in it.
Haven't we all been in this situation before? No?
"You bet." --Ennis del Mar
Re: Metaphor?
by - prowlamongus (Tue Feb 28 2006 20:00:47 )
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How do we know he didn't do just that? Jack's father-in-law, that is.
Re: Metaphor?
by - galirora (Tue Feb 28 2006 22:54:38 )
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In the short story it's mentioned that Lureen's father dies at some point. The movie never actually alludes to his death that I remember, but even if, for argument's sake, he WAS still alive at the end of the movie, it doesn't wash: the scene where the two guys are ridiculing Jack in Lureen's office takes place in the early to mid '70's. If Lureen's dad knew Jack was gay then, why would he wait until 1983 to do something about it?
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Re: Metaphor?
by - galirora (Thu Mar 2 2006 17:14:28 )
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Don't have any thoughts about the location per se, but I never got the impression that the bar where Jack was trying to pick up the rodeo clown was actually a gay bar, even if there happened to mostly be guys there at the time. I thought it was just the local bar where the rodeo guys hung out, whatever town it was they were in. Did someone on this thread say it was a gay bar?
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Re: calf roping means picking up people in a bar
by - she_is_carpet (Mon Feb 27 2006 05:13:28 )
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I thought the bartender was speaking metaphorically like Balrog mentioned and that Jack avoided it by pretending to take it literally.
I don’t think there would have been that much tension in the scene if the three involved didn’t get what was going on…?
Swofford: The Drill Instructor looks fabulous in his uniform, sir
Re: calf roping means picking up people in a bar
by - taj_e (Thu Mar 2 2006 18:12:59 )
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wow talk about pick-up lines lol
it must have been humiliating to jack being turned down just perhaps because he wasnt a good 'rodeo man' lol
and perhaps if he can master the easier 'calf-roping event' he would have better chance
jack wasnt the clowns taste maybe
(i guess the bartender wasnt 'anti-gay' or doesnt care at all)
hey, he was improving and laureen saw it lol
taj
Re: Question about the first bar scene with Jack and the clown
by - conor_kiley (Sun Feb 26 2006 20:34:12 )
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So Jack was kinda bitter about his status and how his rodeoing was going, and how even the rodeo clown thought he was to good to drink with him. And then the bartender makes a crack like that.
That is the best explanation I've read.
The interesting part is how the scene is shot though. The viewer has knowledge the characters don't.
When the guy rebuffs Jack and then heads over to the pool table we don't know what he's saying, we simply see heads turn. Jack is suddenly gatting attention he doesn't want and is made uncomfortable. I think the point is to make the viewer wonder and connect with Jack.
Considering the entire film I think that scene can be enterpreted differently depending on ones perspective. Jack was probably doing two things, hitting on him and trying to help his income at the same time. The reaction to what he did references many issues; Ennis' warning to be secretive, the Mathew Shepard murder, Jack's lonelyness and desperation and Jack's ultimate fate, not to mention that Jack is attracted to a certain type and the Rodeo Clown guy fit it.
I tend to see the scene as building to what ultimately happens to Jack and why. It establishes a pattern that illustrates the character; Jack is more open and daring than Ennis who is brutally closed and it is that aspect of Jacks character that allows the relationship to take place and also dooms him.
Re: Question about the first bar scene with Jack and the clown
by - Ellemeno (Sun Feb 26 2006 20:41:22 )
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>> Bartender: "Ever try calf-roping?"
Means "You might have more luck with younger men."
Drop me a line if you can, say if your there.
Re: Question about the first bar scene with Jack and the clown
by - flashframe777 (Sun Feb 26 2006 21:11:22 )
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Thank you Ellemeno. The bartender is referring to younger more gullible men.
"You bet." --Ennis del Mar
Re: Question about the first bar scene with Jack and the clown
by - Ellemeno (Sun Feb 26 2006 21:14:16 )
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Dang it, Flash, your praise means more to me than it should!
Drop me a line if you can, say if your there.
Re: Question about the first bar scene with Jack and the clown
by - smoke0 (Mon Feb 27 2006 17:33:40 )
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Frank, your post makes the most sense to me in explaining what was going on in this scene; but I also imagined the situation as two-fold. One, I wondered if there is a hierarchal social order within the rodeo circuit and Jack just wasn't "good enough" for the clown to drink with him, which your post addresses, and Two, I was also wondering if there is an unspoken rule about when, where, and who to hit on within the rodeo circuit, since I find it hard to believe that in a mainly male milieu like that, there would be no gay subculture.
Re: Question about the first bar scene with Jack and the clown
by - damiano54 (Sun Feb 26 2006 21:03:34 )
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I don't think the book and certainly not the movie mentions
the age of the rodeo clown. He's no kid but he's probably not
supposed to be all that old.
Apparently Jack was fairly well-known as a bullrider, in fact,
probably as a pretty bad bullrider. That might account for the
bartender's remark. In other, words, since the bartender might be saying something like "You're apparently not good at bull-riding or "picking up guys for that matter", maybe you should try roping calves" Of course, that is another popular rodeo event.
Re: Question about the first bar scene with Jack and the clown
by - RevanueAvenue (Sun Feb 26 2006 21:13:07 )
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hmmm I thought it meant women too. You know its that type of moment thats like hollywood, the bartender or witness making fun of a burn insult. I do not think it has any relations to rodeoin' other than the metaphor to itself but, this movie is interperted in every way it possiby coulb be, everyone differs.
Re: Question about the first bar scene with Jack and the clown
by - Frank_Z (Sun Feb 26 2006 21:32:59 )
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OK
I'm still not convinced it is anything but a direct rodeo reference.
Especially with Jack's very straight reply about not being able to afford a ropin' horse. Maybe if that connected with the sexual allusion, I could consider it. But right now, it still doesn't work for me.
Re: Question about the first bar scene with Jack and the clown
by - moonjammer (Sun Feb 26 2006 21:39:34 )
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It doesn't work for me either I don't think that Jack would hit on a guy in what was oblviously a straight bar.
Re: Question about the first bar scene with Jack and the clown
by - jshane2002 (Sun Feb 26 2006 22:45:22 )
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thanks for the "interpretation", as I say, no one here would take me for a texan but if you got any questions about new jersey... most of the people on the sopranos look so much like the people from my catholic parrish back east
Re: Question about the first bar scene with Jack and the clown
by - Shuggy (Mon Feb 27 2006 00:11:45 )
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I don't think that Jack would hit on a guy in what was oblviously a straight bar.
Guys can hit on guys anywhere. There are gay-unfriendly bars, but no strait bars as such, because strait is the default sexuality, just as there are no Strait Pride Parades that go by that name.
"If you can't stand it, you gotta fix it."
Re: Question about the first bar scene with Jack and the clown
by - RukiaCromwell (Mon Feb 27 2006 01:19:30 )
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I always wondered about what Jack and the bartender were talking about and if there was a double meaning going on.
Wow, I have a lot to learn about pick-up lines and stuff. Not that I need it but it's fun to know!
"Humans are cowards in the face of happiness. You need courage to hold on to happiness."-KG
Picking up men in straight bars..
by - balrog20-ressurected (Mon Feb 27 2006 04:31:55 )
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"It doesn't work for me either I don't think that Jack would hit on a guy in what was oblviously a straight bar."
Well, I have personally picked up 3 guys in a straight bar. Actually two hit on me when they discovered I liked boys.
One of them was even in a straight C&W bar - he made a derogatory statement about gay men and I said " listen guy, do you know you are talking to a f**? " Next thing you know he gives me a smooch on the cheek and we wound up at my place.
I always wondered how come you never brought any trouts home...
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Re: Question about the first bar scene with Jack and the clown
by - OutTooFar (Mon Feb 27 2006 07:23:10 )
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Yikes!
You've hit on a real sore-point with me. Please pardon my mini-rant-
I'm queer. I've known and sometimes loved queers. I've known and sometimes loved men who are heterosexual as well.
And it's been my experience, that when I've finally said, to my FRIEND, "uh, ya know, umm... I'd kinda like to know you better...they always say...umm...gee...not for anything...but no, I'm not interested in doing anything like that."
And no matter what the reason for their disinterest, that's immaterial to what you have- a true FRIEND. And ultimately, what's better than that?
Then we move on, and continue to be great friends.
I guess the lesson is- People appreciate honesty, maybe because it's so rare.
GAY MEN DON'T "HIT ON" STRAIGHT MEN! EVER! Unless you're some kind of gay idiot. It's rude, pointless, insulting to them, and just plain stupid.
To all the "straight" dudes out there, or anyone who feels uncomfortable with same-sex anything, repeat after me- "No thank you."
It's that simple. Honest.
"People are more alike than not alike."
Re: Question about the first bar scene with Jack and the clown
by - galirora (Sun Feb 26 2006 22:44:50 )
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UPDATED Mon Feb 27 2006 17:28:23
<< I'm still not convinced it is anything but a direct rodeo reference. >>
I didn't get anything beyond that either. I feel like the bartender is just trying to make some light conversation to keep Jack at the bar, and since Jack just related the story of his disastrous bull-ride, the bartender is asking if he ever tried a less dangerous (and apparently more prestigious) rodeo event. He doesn't say "you should try calf-roping" and then walk away, he asks the question "Ever try calf-roping?" and then stays as if he expects a response or a conversation. Even if he knew what Jack was up to with the clown, I don't see why he would be asking veiled metaphorical questions about Jack's sexual practices, unless he was trying to pick Jack up himself, in which case I don't think he'd have referred to himself as a "calf"
Re: Question about the first bar scene with Jack and the clown
by - flashframe777 (Sun Feb 26 2006 23:22:51 )
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UPDATED Sun Feb 26 2006 23:26:15
I don't see why he would be asking veiled metaphorical questions about Jack's sexual practices, unless he was trying to pick Jack up himself
____________________________________
Joe Aguirre made veiled comments just like this to Jack. Was he trying to pick Jack up?
No...just like the bartender he was being an ass. That's why Jack got pissed off.
"You bet." --Ennis del Mar
Re: Question about the first bar scene with Jack and the clown
by - Ellemeno (Sun Feb 26 2006 23:27:40 )
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>> Joe Aguirre made veiled comments just like this to Jack. Was he tryiing to pick Jack up?
There was thread here somewhere that I read yesterday that theorized that that was exactly how Aguirre feels toward Jack.
Drop me a line if you can, say if your there.
Re: Question about the first bar scene with Jack and the clown
by - flashframe777 (Sun Feb 26 2006 23:31:27 )
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There was thread here somewhere that I read yesterday that theorized that that was exactly how Aguirre feels toward Jack.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
Maybe the bartender too. lol.
"You bet." --Ennis del Mar
Re: Question about the first bar scene with Jack and the clown
by - galirora (Mon Feb 27 2006 17:24:12 )
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UPDATED Mon Feb 27 2006 17:31:33
<< Joe Aguirre made veiled comments just like this to Jack. Was he trying to pick Jack up?
No...just like the bartender he was being an ass. That's why Jack got pissed off. >>
Aguirre wasn't just "being an ass", he was trying to get rid of Jack -- he didn't want him around. And his "veiled comment" was not really open to any other interpretation - he made it perfectly clear to Jack WHY he didn't want him around.
I didn't get the impression that the bartender wanted Jack to leave, so why would he want to start a conversation about Jack's sexual preferences with him? Jack had already started talking about his bullriding, so it's just as likely that after the clown refused Jack's offer of a drink, the bartender wanted to return the subject to something lighter. Calf-roping DOES refer to rodeo too after all -- just because some of the characters in the movie are gay, it doesn't mean EVERYTHING has to be interpreted in the light of a "gay vs. straight" reference. Jack might have taken the bartender's remark as a veiled comment, but it's entirely feasible that the bartender didn't intend it to be.
Re: Question about the first bar scene with Jack and the clown
by - Ellemeno (Sun Feb 26 2006 22:51:40 )
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>> Especially with Jack's very straight reply about not being able to afford a ropin' horse. Maybe if that connected with the sexual allusion, I could consider it.
No, see, Jack doesn't want to acknowledge any sexual allusion. His LIFE might depend on this conversation being only about ropin' horses. He finds a way to act pissed off, so that he can get the hell out of there before Jimbo's friends might come after him.
BTW, humorous in a non-humorous scene - do you notice that the money he flings onto the bar toward the bartender is actually the bill that Jimbo put down, not Jack's.
Drop me a line if you can, say if your there.
Re: Question about the first bar scene with Jack and the clown
by - cmr107 (Sun Feb 26 2006 23:34:29 )
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>>BTW, humorous in a non-humorous scene - do you notice that the money he flings onto the bar toward the bartender is actually the bill that Jimbo put down, not Jack's.
Haha, I noticed that!
Courtney
Re: Question about the first bar scene with Jack and the clown
by - flashframe777 (Sun Feb 26 2006 23:54:26 )
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I didn't notice about the money Jack picks up Elle...can't wait to see it again. I will get a kick out of it.
"You bet." --Ennis del Mar
Re: Question about the first bar scene with Jack and the clown
by - NewHorizons37 (Thu Mar 2 2006 17:30:17 )
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UPDATED Thu Mar 2 2006 17:33:14
No, I watched carefully last time and Jack definitely puts down his own money.
What happens is that when Jack goes around the corner of the bar to be next to Jimbo and says to the bartender, "let me buy Jimbo a beer, the best rodeo clown I ever worked with", Jack has money in his hand.
When Jimbo rejects him and says "save your money", Jimbo puts down his own money and makes a point of doing so. There are definitely two bills you can see in that scene. After the bartender suggests calf ropin' and Jack angrily responds, he pushes his bill, the one he had already put down, toward the bartender.
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Re: Question about the first bar scene with Jack and the clown
by - musikfreak19 (Sun Feb 26 2006 23:03:13 )
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I interpreted this as the bartender advising Jack to try picking up women. Jack didn't like the bartender getting into his business so he came back w/ the comment about affording a roping horse, just to talk back to the bartender. However, the next time Jack is in the bar, he takes the bartender's advice and asks about Lureen.
Re: Question about the first bar scene with Jack and the clown
by - Ellemeno (Sun Feb 26 2006 23:25:52 )
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>> However, the next time Jack is in the bar, he takes the bartender's advice and asks about Lureen.
Different bar, different bartender. He's only asking about Lureen because she's stalking him.
Drop me a line if you can, say if your there.
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Re: Question about the first bar scene with Jack and the clown
by - bhgardner (Mon Feb 27 2006 00:11:10 )
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I'm not saying that's wrong, but I don't think the bartender is making some kind of metaphor-that seems like over-interpretation to me. It's just a perfectly natural conversation starter.
Re: Question about the first bar scene with Jack and the clown
by - purchas500 (Mon Feb 27 2006 06:00:08 )
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I was thinking that the rodeo clown was well aware that Jack was hitting on him, but in the presence of others (especially the barman who was in easy listening range) he wanted to brush Jack off as quickly as possible for fear of the consequences, (I think the rodeo clown was indeed gay by the way. Jack sensed it too which is why he hit on him, it was not a random selection). I think the barman interpreted the brush-off as the rodeo-clown implying that Jack he was a poor bull-rider and hence his comment about calf-roping in a kind of 'why don't you try a different event' way. I don't think the barman picked-up on the sexual undertones of Jack's and the rodeo clown's interaction.
I liked all the other interpretations on this thread, although i'm not convinced the barman was as tuned-in to the goings on as some of these theories imply. Having said that, maybe 'gay activity' was a lot more common in bars at time than I thought, or in other words, maybe gay guys hit on each other in bars in a subtle and sectretive way, but not so subtly that an observant eye wouldn't see what was going on. A 'turn a blind eye' kind of culture. I think it figures that the less emtremely homophobic sections of society would have turned a blind eye to the not-always-so-subtle activities of gay guys. The film suggests that society was extremely hostile to gays, but just like in todays society, noisey extremists often disguise a much more indifferent attitude of a large section of society.
Re: Question about the first bar scene with Jack and the clown
by - OutTooFar (Mon Feb 27 2006 06:47:35 )
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Well, just from personal experience-
If you happen to find yourself queer (I was 6 years old, which is the norm by the way) one tends to look for all things "gay", frequently where there isn't anything there.
It's sort of like in all things that make great "Art", maybe especially in film, it always depends on the person experiencing it. My baggage is different than your baggage, ya know?
That said, I imagine Ang Lee and everyone involved privately chuckling to themselves and being astounded by what a big deal this "little" movie has become to so many people worldwide. It always has to be about telling a STORY as best you can, as honestly as you can. In that respect, everyone involved succeeded. Brilliantly.
Rather than analyze this thing to death, howzabout we just take it or leave it on it's own terms.
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, ya know?
"People are more alike than not alike."
Re: Question about the first bar scene with Jack and the clown
by - she_is_carpet (Mon Feb 27 2006 07:03:38 )
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I'm just not sure about that when you only have 2 hours or so to tell a story. Then you have to make every scene count, you know? : ) But I might be wrong...
where is Donnie
Re: Question about the first bar scene with Jack and the clown
by - Logan_rock101 (Mon Feb 27 2006 09:21:04 )
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As I had to see this film subtitled (I'm from Mexico), I lost some small parts of scenes of the film, or I didn't understand them very well...so I was actually wondering if Jack was trying to flirt with the clown, I could notice he was...specially because the way Jack stares at him in the bar. And now I've understood the scene, thanks!
Re: Question about the first bar scene with Jack and the clown
by - OutTooFar (Mon Feb 27 2006 09:43:25 )
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You're exactly right. If you've ever been in a film editing room- you're given the luxury of a "frame-grabber". Meaning you can toggle the 24-frames-per-second one frame at a time and see how it "flows". That's how animation like Gumby to Nick Park happens. You have to be extemely patient and more than a little nuts. Yahoo for crazy people I say! We, the audience, benefit from their generous largesse.
I admire and envy anyone that has such a passion.
I'm still seeking mine.
"People are more alike than not alike."
Re: Question about the first bar scene with Jack and the clown
by - jshane2002 (Thu Mar 2 2006 18:26:02 )
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UPDATED Thu Mar 2 2006 18:28:50
There's another scene when Jack is doing his sales demo at the Newsome dealership, some guys start talking about Jack, referring to him as the "pissant" who used to ride the bulls.
I assumed the word "pissant" was a roughneck word for queer but from Texas posting said it just means someone who's a ne'er-do-well or just a worthless kind of drifter.
Between the clown scene in the bar and the "pissant" scene it suggested that people talked about Jack behind his back and that he was reckless in his advances and that might have gotten him killed.
If "pissant" is just a put down for a "nobody" and there was no pickup intended in the clown scene then the facts lean to suggesting really did die because of an exploding tire.
Also that would support Ennis' incredible paranoia about people - he felt so uncomfortable with his gay identity he could only live it on in the wilderness, couldn't even go away to Mexico with Jack.
Re: Question about the first bar scene with Jack and the clown
by - jshane2002 (Tue Mar 14 2006 21:59:03 )
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bump
Re: Question about the first bar scene with Jack and the clown
by - jshane2002 (Sat Mar 18 2006 23:38:46 )
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bump
Re: Question about the first bar scene with Jack and the clown
by - jshane2002 (Mon Mar 20 2006 00:30:43 )
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bump
Re: Question about the first bar scene with Jack and the clown
by - jshane2002 (Fri Mar 31 2006 17:48:28 )
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bump
Re: Question about the first bar scene with Jack and the clown
by - joyce023 10 hours ago (Mon Apr 10 2006 10:07:55 )
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bump
Re: Question about the first bar scene with Jack and the clown
by - taj_e 9 hours ago (Mon Apr 10 2006 10:57:01 )
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there's another thread discussing on whether the clown (Jimbo) had a thing about Jack (which I disagree)
I just realised, the only time Jimbo and gang looked back was when Jack made his move out of the bar (limping). I guess they noticed some commotion then
'I wish I know how to quit BBM...'
