I had a discussion today!

[Anya_Angie]

Well guys, I had a discussion today and I just wanted to share it.

I went to my brother's for a Mother's Day dinner, and while my prejudiced stepfather was outside, my mother, brother's girlfriend, and myself discussed Brokeback Mountain very briefly. We couldn't possibly bring it up while my stepdad was inside with us or he'd flip, even though all of us are straight. He thinks it's wrong to support anyone or anything "queer."

My mother said the film was slow and you had to analyze everything, and she didn't like that. My brother's girlfriend Chrissy said she couldn't understand anything Ennis was saying. I mentioned that you had to take into account Ennis' education, and that you did indeed have to analyze everything because it was all secretive.

They look at it as simply "a movie," with which I'm disappointed but not surprised. In short, the film's message went over their heads. *sigh*

[serious crayons]

I have given up trying to persuade anyone I know to see it. Partly because of experiences like yours, Anya_Angie. I'd rather have them not see it at all, than to see it and criticize it or be "ehh" about it.

[Karan13]

It is horrible when someone can`t share your point of view especially when you are so passionate about something , some minds unfortunately can never be changed , so it is probably best to just try and discuss the movie with people who can appreciate a great piece of cinematic history, rather than others who would laugh at you and try to ruin your enjoyment.

I found no one who saw the movie shared my passion so it was nice to post on the Brokeback Board at IMdb , i found that men , woman , Gay , BI and staight shared my passion. xx kaz

[silkncense]

Has anyone formulated an opinion as to WHY some of us not only see all the subtlety of this film but are deeply impacted by it. 

And, it clearly is not limited to any particular 'group' - we've seen young, old(ish) , gay, straight, male & female.  Thoughts?

[ednbarby]

Has anyone formulated an opinion as to WHY some of us not only see all the subtlety of this film but are deeply impacted by it. 

And, it clearly is not limited to any particular 'group' - we've seen young, old(ish) , gay, straight, male & female.  Thoughts?

I honestly think it comes down to compassion and sensitivity.  I've known people I think are very bright who said it was just "ehh."  I've known people I wouldn't describe as intellectuals who *loved* it.  While I do think there's that group of moviegoers in this country who like their films spoon-fed to them (you know - the Crashites), I think it's more a measure of your capability for compassion as to whether it moves you like it's moved us or doesn't.  One coworker, for example, who I think is very intelligent and who I think has very good taste in movies said that it was "clearly very well-done - well-written, well-acted, well-shot" but that she wasn't particularly moved by it.  She did understand implicitly that Jack was most likely murdered, and even said it was eerie how much it parallels Matthew Shepard's story.  But she didn't shed a tear.  But then, she wasn't outraged by the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina or the 2004 election like I was, either, even though she is quite liberal and agrees both things are "a shame," after which she shrugs her shoulders and says, "But what can you do?"

Then there's my husband, who I consider about the most intelligent person I've ever known personally.  He just gets stuff - immediately.  And he can explain it so that someone like me who doesn't can understand it.  And I mean everything - from how an air conditioner works to the proper mechanics of volleyball to every plot twist and nuance in "Miller's Crossing" (which I had to watch twice and have him explain it to me to fully understand it).  I never thought of him as a particularly compassionate person - he always describes me as his "heart of gold" in the sense that he doesn't see himself as having the kind of compassion I do.  And yet he wept like a baby watching this movie.

Maybe it's that all us Brokies are fixers instead of standers, each in our own way.  And I know many of us have had to work very hard to come to be that way - myself included, but on a different level, I think.  So maybe it takes that to see that this movie is tragic on a Shakespearean level - to see this man who had a shot at real happiness and fulfillment that maybe one in a million people get but who missed it because of his ingrained, societally-influenced fears.  I haven't quite pieced together *why* it takes being a fixer to see that, but I think it may be the common thread.

[Lynne]

Barb - I think you are absolutely on the right track with your analysis.  And, btw, I think it's lovely that your husband and you are so well-matched.

This whole 'dealing with the non-believers' has been a major source of frustration for me.  On the positive side, I have become much better at explaining WHY the movie touched me so deeply.  Every time I get questioned, it gives me another opportunity to give voice to all of those complicated and conflicting emotions that have been churning.

I will add only one observation I have made.  In addition to needing compassion, sensitivity, and at least some level of intelligence, I think the people who 'get it' are emotionally ready to receive it.  I think there must be some open space in the heart for Brokeback Mountain to fill.  I don't it's necessary that something was missing previously - though that may be the case for some.  There is a long list of reasons why the movie affected each of us, and although they can be categorized (there's a poll that boils it down), there are as many subtle variations to the reasons as there are individuals, I would think.

-Lynne

[Anya_Angie]

That's exactly it I think, being a fixer vs. being a stander! I've definitely always seen myself as optimistic. When life gives me lemons I make lemonade. That sort of thing. I don't just take what I'm given, I don't settle for it. And yes I analyze things when I'm interested (for example in movies how relatively poor the visual effects are in Narnia, and how poor the battle scenes are done). As a child I didn't really care for the film Fantasia, but as an adult I love it, think it's extraordinary and I am in awe of its animation, and now I love classical music of course. Oh, but trying to watch it with my stepfather was torture. We didn't even get halfway through the first piece when I stormed home because of his constant complaining.

OK that's getting a bit OT. Anyway, I think how the film affects you could be based on how you look at films. Are they just movies, or are they portals into different settings? I for one feel like I'm in just about every film I see, and I take the elements of filmmaking very seriously. I don't just go out of a theater saying Oh that was a great movie! I go out talking about the various ASPECTS of the movie that I love and the areas where it needs improvement, especialy with regards to scores. I'm very passionate about film music, ever since I was 7 when my father and I watched The Ten Commandments. I thought it was the most glorious music I'd ever heard! I also loved the music in The Secret of NIMH and Disney's Sleeping Beauty, but looking back, watching The Ten Commandments for the first time and hearing that magnificent score, few scores have since matched it, and that's when I truly fell in love with film music. I didn't know anything about composers until John Williams' E.T. and Home Alone. And then he was the only composer I knew well by name (because I was so young I didn't bother with longer names like Jerry Goldsmith LOL!). Eventually I grew to like the works of Horner, Elfman, Goldenthal, the Newman family, and so many others. Now I have 200 scores in my collection and growing, I've been collecting for ten years, and the first thing I ask when seeing or hearing about a new film is "Who's the composer?"

Brokeback has one of the most emotional scores I've ever heard. Its theme "The Wings" is right up there with the great love themes "Across The Stars" and "For The Love Of A Princess," two of my all-time favorites.

Course it doesn't help that both of those are from the last ten years LOL! But still, they stand up to time.

[silkncense]

the people who 'get it' are emotionally ready to receive it.

 

Maybe that's it! 

I know I probably have more compassion than many people I know but I am not sure that is totally it. 

And I am probably more of an Ennis "stander" than a Jack "fixer" so that can't explain it for me...

It clearly is not intelligence cause those that I suggested it to & saw only a well acted, ok film are people I consider(ed) intelligent...

Maybe this is the ONE thing about this movie that we have not figured out.

[starboardlight]

Has anyone formulated an opinion as to WHY some of us not only see all the subtlety of this film but are deeply impacted by it. 

And, it clearly is not limited to any particular 'group' - we've seen young, old(ish) , gay, straight, male & female.  Thoughts?

I agree with Barb as well as with what Lynn wrote. Compassion is key, but being emotionally ready for the message is also important. I want to throw in another theory. I think that the people who love this film are people who can deal with ambiguities and contradictions in life, of which the film is full. People who understand that there isn't always an easy answer in life can get deeper inside the story. From some of your own description of how you dealt the film, you're willing to negotiate those ambiguities and try to work through them from your own perspectives. Even if you don't succeed in figuring them out, just the effort allowed you to become involved in the story. By the end you're all deeply invested in the lives and experienced told. The people who don't "get it" are those that need things to be clear and distinct. They get hung up with morality and judgement. Their comments about not understand what Ennis says is very telling. They need to know every word that was said. Being hung up on the exact details and words, they miss that the gist of his facial expression tells us what's really going on. They certainly miss the big picture. And Angie's mom is right. This film does require analysis. This film doesn't tell us what or how to think about anything. You have to be willing to work and have your thoughts challenged and pushed. That's one of the beautiful thing about art, isn't it? And I think that explain all the people with "delayed reactions". We didn't know how to feel, beyond being devastated, when the film ended, but as we process it further after leaving the theater, the film hit us even harder because we continue to work through those conflicting emotions and details. When it all fits, that when it hits us hardest. I'm one of those that didn't cry when I first saw it, nor the second time I saw it. Rather I cried several days later when it all came together for me.

While it's a generalization, and there are exceptions, I do think that Brokies are those who accept contradictions in life and are willing to work through them, and those that don't get it are those who need to see things in black and white, those who need to be told that there is only one clear answer.

[silkncense]

The people who don't "get it" are those that need things to be clear and distinct. They get hung up with morality and judgement.

 

they miss that the gist of his facial expression tells us what's really going on. They certainly miss the big picture. And Angie's mom is right. This film does require analysis. This film doesn't tell us what or how to think about anything. You have to be willing to work and have your thoughts challenged and pushed.

And those that don't tend to feel safer as 'one of the herd.'  I have a little cartoon on my desk, three panels: 

1.) "Is it me or..."

2.) "Yes."

3.) "I was afraid of that."

And I think that explain all the people with "delayed reactions". We didn't know how to feel, beyond being devastated, when the film ended, but as we process it further after leaving the theater, the film hit us even harder because we continue to work through those conflicting emotions and details.

Nipith! 

I think you are exactly right - I absolutely did NOT understand why everyone didn't react as I did.  But while I continued mulling the film, I did not give the proper amount of time to understanding why others failed to see what I did in the film itself. 

Lately, I had been trying to understand that.  Thanks much for the assist!

[ednbarby]

That's really beautiful, Nipith.  I agree.  And I agree with all everyone else here has said, too.

You're so right about people who immediately discount it by saying "I didn't understand what Ennis was saying."  The first friend I lent it to, who is now a bonafide Brokie, God bless her, said this when I asked her if she had trouble understanding him:  "In a few places.  But it didn't matter, because his face said it all."  And she is someone who appreciates art and who likes movies that "make you think," as she says.

I'm so with you on all this.  I have had this same discussion with another co-worker (who still hasn't seen it, and probably never will) all the time - about what movies are supposed to do.  My argument is that they're supposed to make you think - they're supposed to move you so deeply that they leave a mark on you - that that's what real art does.  Her take is that they should just be for pure entertainment that takes you out of your own miserable life for a little while.  Needless to say, I won't be lending her one of my DVDs.

But I also agree that one has to be emotionally ready to receive this movie - that there has to be a place in your heart that's already waiting for it - to fully appreciate it.  And like you, Angie, I've seen so many movies and analyzed them for so long that it takes a lot for a new movie to really impress me.  I can't just say, "Yeah, that was a good movie" and go on about my merry way.  If it really was good, I like to pick it apart and analyze how it was made in minute detail.  I think that's part of it, too.  I think the more movies one sees, and the more different kinds of movies they are, the more one can discern between what's really good and what's just crap.  I don't mean to sound like a film snob, but I guess I am.  I think a lot of the people who don't get it just don't see that many movies, and the ones they do see tend to be the big "event" movies that are everything all the time without a moment to let you catch your breath and think about anything.  I remember the lovely review written at the old IMDb board by a retiree titled "The Older the Eyes, the Better the Film."  He and his retiree friends loved it, partly because they had a wealth of life experience from which to draw (and a world of compassion, I'm sure) and partly because they had all seen so many movies that they knew a masterpiece when they saw one.

[serious crayons]

We didn't know how to feel, beyond being devastated, when the film ended, but as we process it further after leaving the theater, the film hit us even harder because we continue to work through those conflicting emotions and details. When it all fits, that when it hits us hardest.

I think Nipith comes closest to explaining my response, if only because most of the other explanations don't particularly apply to me. I know that I 1) don't consider myself more compassionate than average, 2) didn't understand most of the film's subtleties the first time I saw it, 3) couldn't understand half of what Ennis was saying at first and even missed some of Jack's lines (bad sound system) 4) usually prefer movies whose appeal is intellectual (Memento) rather than emotional, 5) am more of a stander than a fixer, 6) do have problems in my life that relate to Brokeback situations, but probably also to lots of other movies.

Yet I emerged from the theater the first time not just devastated -- though definitely that -- but also elated and thrilled. I knew at once I had to go back within a week and see it again. I started thinking about it constantly. I had no idea how many more times I'd wind up seeing it or that I'd still be obsessed with it four months later, but if you'd told me, I might not have been surprised.

So to me the phenomenon is very mysterious. It's almost like something metaphysical, though I don't believe in that stuff AT ALL. It reminds me of an old late-'70s Stephen King book, "The Stand" (here would be the place to assert that I never read Stephen King and though, in fact, I don't anymore, I'm not going to bash him because he seems like such a nice guy and because he wrote a nice post-Oscar essay in defense of Brokeback). In that book everybody in the United States dies in a terrible epidemic except a select group of immune people from around the country, who all find themselves mysteriously drawn to Las Vegas for a cataclysmic showdown between good and evil.

I'm hoping we will not be called to Las Vegas anytime soon. But sometimes this seems a little like that to me -- that we're this select group of people from around the world who have been drawn together by the myterious forces of this movie.

Now, having rambled on, I have to add one more thing. When I think about the movie, I am still elated and thrilled. I think it's beautiful and fascinating and moving and I absolutely love it. But I'll have to say that I'm not entirely pleased with the depth of my obsession. I have a close friend with OCD -- he suffers from disturbing intrusive uncontrollable thoughts -- and although this is different because my thoughts about Brokeback aren't at all disturbing or scary, they ARE sort of overwhelming and interfere with my productivity in other areas of life.

[Anya_Angie]

Hey haven't been here for a while LOL I've been so busy with a lot of things, my father is sick and in the hospital and I'm trying to come to terms with that, and also I have a few writing projects to deal with as well. But I am here! So I'd love to continue this discussion.

I think all of you have made excellent points!

I agree that being ready for this story's themes helps, because I knew the story before I walked in, in full detail because I wanted to research it for some fiction I was working on. I was so intrigued by the idea of the story being told so beautifully that people have identified with it and some even say they lived the entire tale. Meanwhile, my mother, when she found out I wanted to see it, stared at me and asked, "Gay cowboys?" So I think since she wasn't emotionally ready, she was just interested in what everyone was talking about, so therefore she wasn't as affected by it as most people.

Look for some more posts of mine in the OT forum!

[wolf]

Great thread!

I'll weigh in by saying I'm not especially compassionate, not necessarily a fixer (I generally steer clear of broken things), don't usually like 'human condition' films, and have no distinctly Brokeback experiences from which to forge a connection. 

I do think tho, that I had a place inside somewhere waiting for this story.  It seemed to FIT, instantly.  Like a piece of a jigsaw puzzle.  had an almost "why didn't I think of that" moment after seeing it for the first time, as odd as that sounds.

Beyond that, I'm with latjoreme re: the film's mysteries.  It is so much greater than the sum of it's parts that it's transcended the prosaic. 

As for why others don't connect, I have one fairly lame theory.  friends who've enjoyed, appreciated, but not been moved tend to be less 'film smart' despite the fact most of them have seen many films, are 40+ and intelligent, educated, worldly, liberal, etc.  those that have connected - and here I'm indeed lucky, as I have three dear friends who are confirmed Brokies - are same 'demographic', but are more interested in film and able to extract more generally from the movie of the moment.  Two of my unbelieving friends have commented to the effect that they 'shouldn't have to work so hard' when seeing a film.  This in response to my suggestion that all the subtleties missed on first viewing might be picked up on the second.  Very telling, non? 

Personally, few films have moved me to haiku.  Even then it's been a recognisable and distinct reaction that only kicks in post 'great film'.  The response I had to Brokeback was altogether a different animal.  That 'great film' thing was there, to be sure, but there was an alarmingly vast array of other 'stuff' subsuming it.   It's the 'stuff' reaction that is most mysterious for me, and the absence of a 'stuff' reaction in others is just as mysterious, despite the abovementioned lame arse theory.

W

[Anya_Angie]

I can see where you're coming from!

I for example loved the film The Notebook, for example, but it seemed like I wasn't affected as strongly as this film, or Hero, or a few other films. It didn't leave as lasting an impression as the others. I didn't analyze character development, whereas with Brokeback, I came out asking all kinds of questions about the character of Ennis.

I also notice minute details of storytelling that most people take for granted, such as irony, foreshadowing, all types of conflict.

[bbm_stitchbuffyfan]

I also notice minute details of storytelling that most people take for granted, such as irony, foreshadowing, all types of conflict.

You see I greatly admire details such as those but I never usually understand them. The only reason I have such an excellent understanding of Brokeback, I'm ashamed to say, is because others have, on these boards, mentioned the symbols they discovered.

Brokeback is very -- beautifully -- subtle as well. The only guaranteed way I'll process minute details like foreshadowing and such is if they are at least fairly obvious.

I think as to why people either love or dislike Brokeback, I think it has a lot to do with what kinds of films you watch. Granted, there are likely exceptions, but if you enjoy humane, intelligent character-driven stories, art-house films, and well-done symbolism (and aren't a homophobe) then you have a good chance of appreciating Brokeback Mountain. If you enjoy fast-paced teeny-bopper thrillers like the When a Stranger Calls remake or low-level, stupid comedies like the Scary Movie films, then you'll probably dislike Brokeback.

I think what starboard said, however, is very interesting and merited. I am gonna think it over but as of right now, I am liking what he wrote.

Of all the people I know in person { } who've seen Brokeback Mountain, seven of them disliked it and two of them really liked it. (Although they may not be Brokies like myself I'm sure as hell thankful for them!) Of the seven, I know two of them are homophobes (one's in denial, which pisses me off), another has really crappy taste (every MTV reality show ever created to movies like Into the Blue and Just Like Heaven), two others are relatively smart teenagers my age but consume and appreciate a lot of crap like the aforementioned When a Stranger Calls remake and Scary Movie 4, and the last two are my parents who may or may not be homophobic (I am not sure yet and I don't want to randomly bring the topic up; I want them to be honest as well).

I don't know if that helps any or if it just a waste of virtual ink. But I felt like letting all out; in a way, I was ranting...

It sucks though because I am close with, generally, all nine of these people. It sucks further how they should be aware that I'm very, very passionate about this movie and they don't take my admiration of it seriously at all. Should a Brokeback conversation come up, I'd just be told I read too deeply into the movie or else my opinions would be considered to have no merit. 

[wolf]

bbm_stitchbuffyfan,

I'm assuming you're young (under 20?), and if so, I'm deeply impressed.  With the greatest respect to the teens of today  , not many would have the depth of character to appreciate BBM.

Regarding homophobia impacting on one's appreciation, I'm not sure I can see that.  One of the most confirmed Brokeaholics I know was robustly homophobic until her first viewing.  Not a word of a lie.  I'll even confess a modicum of 'discomfort' on my own part, despite spending my late teens/early 20's in friendship with some lovely gay boys.  Point is, my experience indicates homophobia doesn't seem to be the operative obstacle.  On the flip side, I know some gay people who were not just unmoved, but whom actually loathed it  .

You make a good point regarding 'in your face' film tastes, tho even that doesn't seem to be a clear decider.  Some of the people I know who were unmoved (enjoyed it, but no further reaction) are fully fledged film snobs who wouldn't dream of seeing mainstream hollywood crap.

Mysteriouser and mysteriouser ...

W

[silkncense]

Mysteriouser and mysteriouser ...

Indeed.  I have been totally wrong several times in my assessment of who would & who would not see this movie rather than just watch it.