The World Beyond BetterMost > Anything Goes
Why are the poor, poor?
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: broketrash on May 05, 2008, 11:05:17 pm ---I agree to move on, my comment was precisely aimed at the extreme comments on this thread in which analogies were drawn to Nazi death camps. You were not the person making those comments, and your reference to possible racism or classism as motivators among those who advocate welfare reform was made in a manner that was well within the bounds of a serious discussion. I regret that you felt I was strongly objecting to any of your posts. Since I have met you on this web site we have disagreed very strongly, but I have never noted that you use those types of attacks.
--- End quote ---
OK, good. Thanks for clarifying. :)
--- Quote from: broketrash on May 05, 2008, 11:00:01 pm ---Ann Coulter aside, and the fact the humor is indeed in the eyes and ears of the beholder, what is to be done about welfare?
You asked me to offer some solutions. That I did! You, and Del have offered reasoned objections to those ideas. OK, I disagree, but I am willing to entertain other ideas.
Or do you disagree with me that welfare needs to be scrapped at the federal level, turned over to the states and fundamentally reformed? Can I assume that you agree with Del's earlier post which offered some suggestions that would reform the system around the edges but wouldn't really change the fundamentals?
--- End quote ---
I think you're right that my views are probably fairly close to Del's. But I'll be honest, broketrash, I don't know enough about the specifics of Welfare to say specifically how and where I'd tinker with it to improve the system. I'm sure there is probably room for improvement, and most likely the best policy is to focus on teaching people to fish rather than giving them a fish. However, I would not suddenly dismantle the system and pull the safety net out from under desperate people and their children.
I guess I would place a high priority on educational opportunities for all ages, as well as any other programs that can expose people, especially kids and teenagers, to the range of opportunities that are out there. I think what we call a "culture of poverty" is basically poor people being so immersed in their environment that they can't conceive of aspiring to anything better. What is that old saying? Something like, "To a worm in an apple, the whole world is an apple." I know there are plenty of opportunities that I, as a middle-class Midwesterner, didn't envision as possible for myself -- opportunities that the offspring of wealthier, more worldly parents would have taken for granted. Well, if I transpose my fairly inconsequential limitations to what I would imagine as the perspective of a kid growing up among poor, undereducated people -- people who, yes, in many cases have made poor choices -- I can understand how those more severe limitations get handed down.
Anyway. Those aren't nearly as specific as your prescriptions. The fact is, I'm on this thread not because I have some concrete welfare reforms I want to implement but because I objected to sweeping generalizations and assumptions about the poor, combined with suggestions for reform that, well, frankly, seem to me to lack compassion.
I think, broketrash, that there are some fundamental differences between how you and I see the world and what we consider to be fair. I think we agree that the middle class is unfairly burdened, but when we look around for who to blame for that, we point the finger in different directions.
Jeff Wrangler:
--- Quote from: injest on May 05, 2008, 11:22:57 pm ---MY comments also were aimed at extreme comments on this thread in which forced sterilization and internment were advocated to solve 'poverty'.
--- End quote ---
I don't remember anybody actually advocating internment, but I meant to suggest that it was just a short step from forcibly prevent the poor from having children to locking them up in concentration camps. (I suggested there was probably room in West Texas. They probably have extra space on the YFZ ranch. ...)
From the outrage my comment has provoked, I'm satisfied that I hit my target. :)
brokeplex:
--- Quote from: seriouscrayons on May 06, 2008, 12:19:22 am ---OK, good. Thanks for clarifying. :)
I think you're right that my views are probably fairly close to Del's. But I'll be honest, broketrash, I don't know enough about the specifics of Welfare to say specifically how and where I'd tinker with it to improve the system.
1) I'm sure there is probably room for improvement, and most likely the best policy is to focus on teaching people to fish rather than giving them a fish.
2) However, I would not suddenly dismantle the system and pull the safety net out from under desperate people and their children.
3) I guess I would place a high priority on educational opportunities for all ages, as well as any other programs that can expose people, especially kids and teenagers, to the range of opportunities that are out there. I think what we call a "culture of poverty" is basically poor people being so immersed in their environment that they can't conceive of aspiring to anything better.
4) I think, broketrash, that there are some fundamental differences between how you and I see the world and what we consider to be fair. I think we agree that the middle class is unfairly burdened, but when we look around for who to blame for that, we point the finger in different directions.
--- End quote ---
your statements are fair, I may disagree with some conclusions which you have drawn, but I agree also with much of what you have stated. In fact I am very pleased to see some broader fundamental agreement than I might have suspected. And I have to wonder that if you and I coming at many issues from opposite side of the spectrum can find agreement, then surely our national and state leadership (so called) should be able to put aside polemics and reach some solutions on the variety of ailments that need fixing in todays world. I think that there is a thirst in the body politic for new solutions that get beyond the "usual cast of characters", hence the temporary success of people like Jesse Ventura and Ross Perot.
let me address some of your more important points:
1) I agree very strongly on relevant education for the young, the middle and the aged. Earlier I opined that one of the problems is an educational system that has become irrelevant for many of our youth. I suggested the German model of a two track system of an academically oriented education paralleling an technical oriented education.
2) I agree with you, the reforms which I suggested could not be done overnight, the safety net would have to be changed gradually. The disruption in people lives and in the life of the marketplace would be intolerable if radical changes occured overnight.
3) again, I agree on the "culture of poverty" or the culture of the underclass. this is a mentality which blocks any hope of growing out of dependency on charity.
4) the rising taxes on the middle class are the fuel in this debate. the system as it exists makes the tax structure for a middle class person such as yourself unfair vis a vis someone such as myself in a different income bracket. I am all too aware of the fact that the wealthy in this country simply do not pay their fair share using the present system as a benchmark. The tax system itself is "deranged" and deranging. That is why I advocate the abolition of the IRS income tax system and a uniform consumption tax which taxes everyone at an equal rate. Under the income tax system, the rich will never pay proportionately what the middle class does, and the poor pay nothing or close to nothing into the system.
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: broketrash on May 06, 2008, 12:36:00 pm ---your statements are fair, I may disagree with some conclusions which you have drawn, but I agree also with much of what you have stated. In fact I am very pleased to see some broader fundamental agreement than I might have suspected.
--- End quote ---
Yay! :D Are you listening, Congress?
--- Quote ---1) I agree very strongly on relevant education for the young, the middle and the aged. Earlier I opined that one of the problems is an educational system that has become irrelevant for many of our youth. I suggested the German model of a two track system of an academically oriented education paralleling an technical oriented education.
--- End quote ---
But don't you think, broketrash, that this is a risky move given the changes in employment opportunities due to automation and outsourcing? To me, everybody could use a basic standard high school education. After that, it's another matter, I guess. But I've never felt that a shortage of technical-education opportunities is a big problem for young people today, especially because many high schools offer tech-ed programs. And they are downright plentiful after high school.
--- Quote ---again, I agree on the "culture of poverty" or the culture of the underclass. this is a mentality which blocks any hope of growing out of dependency on charity.
--- End quote ---
Yes. Though what you have described as a sense of entitlement I see as an unawareness of, or ignorance of, the methods for creating a different kind of life.
Here's the analogy I always think of. Let's say I decide I want to be a movie star. Now, we know it's theoretically possible, because non-famous middle-class Midwesterners DO become movie stars sometimes. Still, I wouldn't know exactly how to go about it. Do I volunteer for community theater and hope to work my way up? Major in drama at my state university? Go get a job at a soda fountain in Hollywood and wait to be discovered? Without any guidance, becoming a movie star seems approximately as feasible as going to the moon.
Compare my situation to that of Jane Fonda, or Kate Hudson, or Tom Hanks' son ... etc. etc. They not only know what to do and where to go to try for movie roles, but they already have the contacts, and their backgrounds and identities will get them in the door. Sure, they eventually have to prove themselves, but in the beginning the path is there for them and they know how to take it.
That's the difference I see between poor people living living in a "culture of poverty," surrounded by the undereducated and unemployed ... and middle- or upper-class people who grow up among dentists and professors and architects and lawyers and shoe-store owners and commercial artists and marketing consultants -- people who are able to show them the ropes and, perhaps more important, make their lives seem easily attainable.
And our different perceptions, I think, influence what we see as solutions. If you think people remain on welfare because they like playing the system, then it makes sense to change the system so it's unplayable. If you think people remain on welfare because they don't know how to live any other way, then it makes sense to help them learn how it's done.
--- Quote ---4) the rising taxes on the middle class are the fuel in this debate. the system as it exists makes the tax structure for a middle class person such as yourself unfair vis a vis someone such as myself in a different income bracket.
--- End quote ---
Yes, that's unfair. Taxes aren't my biggest personal economic worry, though, and I'm certainly not losing sleep over the 1 percent that goes to pay for Welfare -- which in my case amounts annually to less than I'd spend on a single dinner in a nice restaurant. I'm far more concerned about unemployment, the cost of higher education, the housing market, inflation, the stock market ... the stuff that determines whether I can afford to eat in restaurants at all.
HerrKaiser:
--- Quote from: injest on May 05, 2008, 07:06:08 pm ---Broketrash has offered a solution for poverty...interment in work camps for poor people and forced sterilization...but Reagan called America 'a bright shining city'...I was juxtaposing Broketrash's solution with Reagan's vision.
--- End quote ---
I think, to quote the Rev Wright, you took Broketrash's ideas WAY out of context and as such tended to mislead.
But, what I find funny is using Reagan as a means to support the liberal argument! :) :) :)
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version