The World Beyond BetterMost > Anything Goes
Why are the poor, poor?
louisev:
to view the American population as divided between "conservatives" and "liberals" is not only oversimplistic, it is also highly misleading and mostly wrong. The majority of Americans are actually centrists - somewhere in between. The far right and far left "positions" which Herr Kaiser has boiled down to "big government tax and spend" ideas as opposed to "small government self-reliant" ideas is the roughest and least accurate of all descriptions of the US electorate.
However, looking at the one topic of "Johnny can"t read", the "conservative" presidency of GW Bush did not "bring Johnny to the library", and as a teacher of English, I can guarantee that bringing Johnny to the library will not teach him to read. The solution enacted was the "No Child Left Behind Act", which was "Test Johnny repeatedly on massive standardized tests and modify the curriculum to teach to the test." It has been a manifest failure.
brokeplex:
--- Quote from: HerrKaiser on May 08, 2008, 01:37:02 pm ---
Liberals seem to feel it is compassionate to simply give folks things which most conservatives feel is a road to disaster. Few people, left or right, continue to support, for example, the aspects of the 1960s war on poverty wherein the government build massive housing developments so the poor could live for free. They quickly turned into major ghettos of crime and violence which was regenerated by subsequent generations. Not very compassionate in my book.
Johnny can't do his homework; he is struggling. Everyone agrees a helping hand is needed. The conservative takes Johnny to the library, shows him how to use the resources, and encourages him to complete the task. Johnny feels accomplished and capable.
The liberal gives Johnny the answers. Johnny goes out to play.
I think the conservative way is far more compassionate. The liberal way is "nicer" by some definitions because it doesn't make him work, but does nothing for his well being.
--- End quote ---
All very well stated Kaiser. Good analogies
You should however not be under any delusion that many on this thread will admit to the failure of LBJ's trillion dollar War on Poverty. As an argumentative premise that the Social engineering projects started in the 60's are failures, you will not find any takers among the left. Why else would there be no interest in radical welfare reform? The left in this country will not admit any failure on the part of their sacred cow programs, as it would force them to admit the internal contradictions within their own proposals. No, they are perfectly willing to let the same old programs produce one generation after another to be imprisoned in the underclass.
So really it comes down to them only grudgingly and under intense political pressure admit to half heartedly making changes around the edges of the programs, i.e. Clinton's welfare reforms in the 1990's. To me that has almost been a waste of time, the only method of extracting the inextractable problem of the underclass is radical reform.
1) get the issue away from the feds
2) reform secondary education towards a two track system
3) allow mandatory birth control for welfare recipients
4) make the men who father children and abandon those children either pay up, or ship out to a prison farm
5) allow mandatory workfare for recipients
6) rest control away from the permanent welfare bureaucracy by allow the tax payers to vote in yearly referenda on any changes needed in the programs
Jeff Wrangler:
--- Quote from: louise van hine on May 08, 2008, 03:03:42 pm ---The majority of Americans are actually centrists - somewhere in between.
--- End quote ---
This is why, according to my old poli sci prof, the Presidential candidate who is perceived as being closest to the center is generally the one who wins the election.
Jeff Wrangler:
--- Quote from: broketrash on May 08, 2008, 03:30:58 pm ---You should however not be under any delusion that many on this thread will admit to the failure of LBJ's trillion dollar War on Poverty. As an argumentative premise that the Social engineering projects started in the 60's are failures, you will not find any takers among the left. Why else would there be no interest in radical welfare reform? The left in this country will not admit any failure on the part of their sacred cow programs, as it would force them to admit the internal contradictions within their own proposals. No, they are perfectly willing to let the same old programs produce one generation after another to be imprisoned in the underclass.
So really it comes down to them only grudgingly and under intense political pressure admit to half heartedly making changes around the edges of the programs, i.e. Clinton's welfare reforms in the 1990's. To me that has almost been a waste of time, the only method of extracting the inextractable problem of the underclass is radical reform.
--- End quote ---
Is it not contradictory to say that the Left refuses to admit that things don't work yet agrees to make changes? Why agree to make changes if you don't think something isn't working?
Besides which, the claim is untrue. Otherwise, for example, we would still be building highrise housing "projects" instead of instituting programs to help the poor to homeownership--in some cases they even help build those homes to really give them a sense of "investment" in the house.
In any case, in the alternative universe of the Conservative Right, "welfare reform" really means "welfare elimination."
Of course, if the underclass is eliminated, who's going to weed the flowerbeds and mow the lawns and diaper the babies and clean the houses and wash the dirty laundry of all those rich Conservatives?
Luvlylittlewing:
--- Quote from: HerrKaiser on May 08, 2008, 01:37:02 pm ---I guess this depends on how one defines compassion.
A good example of the difference between conservatives and liberals:
Johnny can't do his homework; he is struggling. Everyone agrees a helping hand is needed. The conservative takes Johnny to the library, shows him how to use the resources, and encourages him to complete the task. Johnny feels accomplished and capable.
The liberal gives Johnny the answers. Johnny goes out to play.
--- End quote ---
Nonsense!
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