getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)

[serious crayons]

I wouldn't say it's narrow-minded of you, Katherine.

Well, I was expecting I might get resistance particularly from our Western members. It could just be that I'm unfamiliar with how guys like that would really talk. The movie versions, as I said, I could totally buy, but to me the story guys seemed to veer into the realm of caricature. But then, I've never lived in Wyoming.

TJ, where are you when we need you?

As a former editor who had very old-fashioned training, it drove me crazy to see going as goin without an apostrophe in place of the final g.

LOL. I don't mind goin. In fact, I kind of like the missing apostrophe. What drives me crazy is "goin a." I'd rather just see "gonna"!

[nakymaton]

Well, I was expecting I might get resistance particularly from our Western members. It could just be that I'm unfamiliar with how guys like that would really talk. The movie versions, as I said, I could totally buy, but to me the story guys seemed to veer into the realm of caricature. But then, I've never lived in Wyoming.

I've only spent a little time in Wyoming. There are subtle variations in the Mountain West dialects, I think, but my ears haven't gotten good enough to pick them up. I can tell a dialect from the mountains from one from Texas or from the midwest (Iowa, for instance), though. And the differences from Californian or Southern or New England accents are pretty extreme... though I probably wouldn't say that if I spoke British English.

But, ok, compared to the Colorado accents I know, I would say that the rhythm of the language is pretty good. There actually is a little bit of a break between the "gonn" and "a" that you don't hear in, say, rural New England. And if I listen closely, I can pick up the hints of two syllables, the "goin a" that's typical of the way Proulx writes the dialect. But, tell you what, it still looks weird on the page to me. It's just not the way that most American writers phoneticize rural dialects.

(And the description of Jack's Texas accent as he grew older... that's spot on, as my British friends would put it. But I'm sure glad that Proulx didn't decide to write Jack's Texas accent phonetically, because that would have REALLY hurt my eyes.)

Aside: I think it's really, really hard to write American dialects, at least, in a way that doesn't seem to make fun of them. I mean, to the people speaking the dialects, that's simply the way the words are pronounced. Spelling them phonetically seems to say that "these people are speaking wrong."

And when TJ wrote with a deliberate accent, it looked really exaggerated to me, and I've heard enough Oklahoma accents that it wasn't just unfamiliarity with the dialect.

I'm less certain about how well colloquial expressions in BBM work. Those are the sort of things that can vary a lot from one place to another, in my experience, and that can get lost within a generation. And they might be the sort of thing that a 60-year-old man would not say in the presence of a 40-year-old transplant woman. (But would they say them in the presence of a 60-year-old transplant woman? How would Annie Proulx pick up the language that two native Wyoming men speak to one another?) At any rate, I've never heard anyone talk about "whipping babies."

One thing that I've heard other people (maybe at the Dave Cullen forum?) mention: all the swearing. Somebody somewhere mentioned that the ranch kids they knew tended to be really polite in their speech, even if their grammar wasn't perfect. And a friend of mine who teaches middle school to ranch kids has made similar comments -- that she's never met kids who say "yes, ma'am" and "no, sir" more than the kids who were raised on ranches.

[Jeff Wrangler]

One thing that I've heard other people (maybe at the Dave Cullen forum?) mention: all the swearing. Somebody somewhere mentioned that the ranch kids they knew tended to be really polite in their speech, even if their grammar wasn't perfect. And a friend of mine who teaches middle school to ranch kids has made similar comments -- that she's never met kids who say "yes, ma'am" and "no, sir" more than the kids who were raised on ranches.

Whoa. That's an interesting point, but surely even ranch kids speak differently when they're alone, among themselves, than when they're addressing their teachers?

Generally, though, I never gave the swearing a thought because it's been my experience that working class people do swear more than people with middle-class pretensions. I've seen it in my own family, among my own relatives. And Ennis and Jack are certainly rural working class.

I got to like goin a. Sounds more musical to me than gonna. 

[serious crayons]

Aside: I think it's really, really hard to write American dialects, at least, in a way that doesn't seem to make fun of them. I mean, to the people speaking the dialects, that's simply the way the words are pronounced. Spelling them phonetically seems to say that "these people are speaking wrong."

That's probably the reason that spelling out dialect has largely fallen out of favor in recent years. Writers used to do it when quoting people who were of a different class or race than the writer. It's insulting and, well, accent-centric. Like there's one just correct way to pronounce the words. So these days, I think, writers try to indicate class, geography, etc. in more subtle ways (grammar and diction, for instance).

On the other hand, it can also look funny to have people say "going to," when you know they really wouldn't. One minor jarring bit of dialogue in the movie, for me, is when Ennis says, "could get you killed if I come to know them." It don't sound right.

So Annie Proulx was walking a thin line, I guess.

How would Annie Proulx pick up the language that two native Wyoming men speak to one another?

Maybe listening closely in bars and things. After all, watching a guy in a bar is supposedly how she conceived of the character of Ennis.

  she's never met kids who say "yes, ma'am" and "no, sir" more than the kids who were raised on ranches.

Generally, though, I never gave the swearing a thought because it's been my experience that working class people do swear more than people with middle-class pretensions.

Well, Jack and Ennis do say ma'am and sir (Jack to Alma; Ennis to the Twists). But like Jeff, I'd guess that real ranch hands must swear a lot when they're together. Hell, most of the people I know have goddamn middle-class pretensions, and yet a lot of those sons of bitches fuckin swear all the time.

[nakymaton]

Well, Jack and Ennis do say ma'am and sir (Jack to Alma; Ennis to the Twists). But like Jeff, I'd guess that real ranch hands must swear a lot when they're together. Hell, most of the people I know have goddamn middle-class pretensions, and yet a lot of those sons of bitches fuckin swear all the time.

Yes, good points to both of you. (I would say, though, that the foulest mouths tend to be on upper-middle-class kids who are slumming. )

And yeah, the ranch kids may swear more around each other than they do around their teachers. (So the closest I've come to working with Wyoming ranch hands is working with young Idaho-native geologists, kids who worked in the oil fields or in mines before going to college. And they sure had foul mouths. And that may be the closest experience I could get; in their eyes, I essentially forfeited the right to be treated like a respectable lady when I picked up a hammer and tried to do a man's work, so I at least got an earful or two of the kinds of stuff rural Idaho guys say to each other.)

By the way, I meant to say something about Jeff's comment about the language in the story sounding like oral story-telling. YES. That's exactly it. Sometimes I get the urge to read the story out loud; it feels like that's how it should be read.

[Jeff Wrangler]

By the way, I meant to say something about Jeff's comment about the language in the story sounding like oral story-telling. YES. That's exactly it. Sometimes I get the urge to read the story out loud; it feels like that's how it should be read.

Thanks! I'm not really familiar with "oral tradtion," but I would imagine a story-teller switches point of view in the course of telling the tale, as he or she would have to "play all the parts" as well as provide the narrative, and that's the feeling I get when I read the story. It does feel like it should be read aloud, almost like a legend, and by someone with an authentic Wyoming voice.

[dly64]

Gosh … it’s been awhile since I have been able to read through everything, so I am just getting caught up. Let’s hope the haze of pain killers have cleared enough so that I can comment on a couple of things.

I want to back track briefly to a comment that Jeff made regarding story Jack’s lie at the motel. It is one of those things that I am sure we will never see eye to eye. I just don’t see that it is that big of a deal. IMO, Ennis was asking Jack if he was with other men as a way to feel out if Jack saw Ennis as being special. I am not sure if I am explaining this very well. But, Ennis is trying to sort out if Jack’s relationship with him is different than other relationships that Jack may have previously had. The truth of it is, yes … Jack’s feelings for Ennis are different than anyone else he would have been with. So, why would Jack want to cheapen their time together? Jack had sex with other men, but he didn’t make love to them. He f**ked them … big difference!

Okay … off that topic since I have probably pounded that into the ground too many times to count.

I am chuckling over the dialect conversation. The truth of the matter, in this type of story, Annie had to write in a way that Ennis and Jack would speak. (If I am missing the point here, let me know). I mean … can you imagine Jack in this conversation (here it is in the story):

“I didn’t want none a either kind …. But fuck-all has worked the way I wanted. Nothin never come to my hand the right way.”

Saying it like ….

“I never wanted children. Nothing has worked out the way that I had hoped.”

That’s not very Jack-like, is it??

As for the swearing … I have to admit when I first read the story and saw the film I was a bit taken aback. The rural kids that I know are mostly Amish, so I don’t have a clue how young ranch hands would speak. The conclusion I came to was that both Jack and Ennis had difficult lives/ childhoods. In most instances, they had to make their own way in the world. In that regard, I would not see them as being so sheltered that they would not swear. On the contrary … they were around people who most likely had very foul mouths. Sometimes I think that swearing is also used more by those who are less educated (don’t kill me on this folks). Reason: it is easier to throw in (a) swear word(s) then to try to express oneself intelligently.

[Jeff Wrangler]

"Haze of pain killers?" Gosh, sorry you haven't been feeling well!

I want to back track briefly to a comment that Jeff made regarding story Jack’s lie at the motel. It is one of those things that I am sure we will never see eye to eye. I just don’t see that it is that big of a deal. IMO, Ennis was asking Jack if he was with other men as a way to feel out if Jack saw Ennis as being special. I am not sure if I am explaining this very well. But, Ennis is trying to sort out if Jack’s relationship with him is different than other relationships that Jack may have previously had. The truth of it is, yes … Jack’s feelings for Ennis are different than anyone else he would have been with. So, why would Jack want to cheapen their time together? Jack had sex with other men, but he didn’t make love to them. He f**ked them … big difference!

Tell you what, no, we're not going to see eye to eye on this one. Yes, it is a big difference. But if Jack's lie in the motel in 1967 isn't such a big deal, then why does Ennis collapse 16 years later, at their confrontation in 1983, when he finds out for sure that all those years he thought he and Jack had "a one-shot thing" (Jack's line in the story, given to Ennis in the film), Jack had been screwing around on him with other guys? Put another way, when Ennis found out the truth in 1983, it was a pretty big deal to him!

I don't see how Ennis can be trying to figure out if Jack's relationship with him is different from other relationships Jack may have had--I'm assuming you mean with men, here?--when he doesn't know whether Jack has had any other relationships. That's what Ennis is trying to find out--whether Jack has had any other sexual relationships with men.

Granted, no lie, no story, but yeah, fucking with other guys sure isn't the same thing as making love with Ennis. In my little subset of gay males, I see this sort of thing all the time. Much better for both of them if Jack had said something like, "Yeah, Ennis, I been ridin' more than bulls, but, damn, it ain't never been like it is with you."

Plus, I think Ennis is still figuring out his sexuality here. That's how I interpret this paragraph:

Ennis pulled Jack's hand to his mouth, took a hit from the cigarette, exhaled. "Sure as hell seem in one piece to me. You know, I was sittin up here all that time tryin to figure out if I was--? I know I ain't. I mean, here we both got wives and kids, right? I like doin it with women, yeah, but Jesus H., ain't nothin like this. I never had no thoughts a doin it with another guy except I sure wrang it out a hunderd times thinkin about you. You do it with other guys? Jack?

Look at that "right?" after "here we both got wives and kids." At this point in the story Ennis is still questioning his sexual orientation--clinging to the notion that having a wife and children means he's not queer. I understand Jack was probably afraid to be honest with Ennis here, but if he had been honest about having sex with other guys in those four years apart from Ennis, it might have helped Ennis come to terms with his own sexuality.

[serious crayons]

So, why would Jack want to cheapen their time together? Jack had sex with other men, but he didn’t make love to them. He f**ked them … big difference!

I'm in your camp on this, Diane. It would have wrecked their nice reunion to no avail (see below).

can you imagine Jack in this conversation (here it is in the story):

“I didn’t want none a either kind …. But fuck-all has worked the way I wanted. Nothin never come to my hand the right way.”

Saying it like ….

“I never wanted children. Nothing has worked out the way that I had hoped.”

Funny, Diane! But I don't know that the choice is quite that stark. There's a path in the middle, and that is the way they talk in the movie! Nothing in the movie sounds artificial to me. It's not highfallutin. But nor is it what seems to me -- and god knows I could be wrong -- a caricature of Western ranch-hand speech.

But speaking of highfalutin, I had to dredge up this truly hilarious thread from the past -- one of the funniest ever, IMO -- translating Brokeback lines into fancy talk.

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=713.0

But if Jack's lie in the motel in 1967 isn't such a big deal, then why does Ennis collapse 16 years later, at their confrontation in 1983, when he finds out for sure that all those years he thought he and Jack had "a one-shot thing"

I don't think the reason for Ennis' collapse are that cut and dried. If so, movie Ennis would have no reason to collapse, because the subject of Jack's fidelity didn't come up in HIS motel-room conversation. And to me, both Ennises seems to approach the topic of Mexico pretty pragmatically, like they already know what the answer will be.

Now, news of Randall might have been a little more disturbing. (But as far as story Ennis is concerned, even then he seems less disturbed by the idea of Jack stepping out than by the confirmation of his worst fears about Jack's death.)

  if he had been honest about having sex with other guys in those four years apart from Ennis, it might have helped Ennis come to terms with his own sexuality.

Well, that could be. I have been critical of movie Jack for not helping Ennis sort out his sexuality in the "do you worry that people know" scene. Maybe there'd be some way to address it here without dragging in a topic that might be needlessly hurtful.

I think it comes down to whether we think that a relationship in which there's been some unrevealed casual sex is "built on a lie." To me, it seems best not to disclose any extracurricular sexual activity that doesn't endanger the relationship; it's going to be needlessly disturbing to the other person without improving the quality of the relationship. Again, Jack's involvement with Randall -- extracurricular sexual activity that MIGHT endanger their relationship -- is a different story.

[nakymaton]

Plus, I think Ennis is still figuring out his sexuality here. <snip>

Look at that "right?" after "here we both got wives and kids." At this point in the story Ennis is still questioning his sexual orientation--clinging to the notion that having a wife and children means he's not queer. I understand Jack was probably afraid to be honest with Ennis here, but if he had been honest about having sex with other guys in those four years apart from Ennis, it might have helped Ennis come to terms with his own sexuality.

Yeah, I think Ennis is looking for confirmation that the attraction he's feeling for Jack is something that's all right. (But you know... I don't know if it would have helped if Jack said, "yeah, I like men." Is Ennis trying to sort out his sexuality, or is he looking for Jack to help Ennis keep denying what's going on? I don't know.)

In fact, I wonder if Jack's lying is the way story-Jack deals with his own internalized homophobia. (That would be a big difference from movie-Jack, IMO.)

I don't think fidelity is really the main point to the conversation. I mean, can they be worrying about being faithful to each other when they're still trying to come to grips with the fact that they really like having sex with each other?

Edit: Katherine, thanks for dredging up that thread. I think that's where I de-lurked, or close to it.