Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond > Brokeback Mountain Open Forum
getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
Jeff Wrangler:
--- Quote from: dly64 on September 16, 2006, 09:34:44 pm ---You are leaving out a paragraph ….
“ ‘Jesus,’ said Jack. ‘Ennis?’ But before he was out of the truck, trying to guess if it was a heart attack or the overflow of an incendiary rage, Ennis was back on his feet and somehow, as a coat hanger is straightened to open a locked car and then bent again to its original shape, they torqued things almost to where they had been, for what they’d said was no news. Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved.”
--- End quote ---
No, I don't think, or feel, that I'm leaving out, or ignoring, that paragraph. It's what I said earlier about the difference between suspecting something and having to deal face-on with the reality of it when you get confirmation that what you've been suspecting, or fearing, is actually true. Mexico isn't news, but now it's out in the open and Ennis has to deal with it.
jpwagoneer1964:
--- Quote from: dly64 on September 16, 2006, 09:34:44 pm ---
My biggest gripe about the film is that it tones down the passion between Jack and Ennis as they grow older. The lake scene in the film does show Jack’s vulnerability … admitting he misses Ennis to the point he can’t stand it. But it skips from that moment to TS3 … which is an intimate scene, but does not reflect the intensity of the passion they still have for each other.
--- End quote ---
To me the film showed enough, just, that the passion was still very musch alive between Jack an Ennis, Horseback riding, even the lakeside Texas argument, and of course TS3.
dly64:
--- Quote from: Jeff Wrangler on September 17, 2006, 01:24:31 pm ---No, I don't think, or feel, that I'm leaving out, or ignoring, that paragraph. It's what I said earlier about the difference between suspecting something and having to deal face-on with the reality of it when you get confirmation that what you've been suspecting, or fearing, is actually true. Mexico isn't news, but now it's out in the open and Ennis has to deal with it.
--- End quote ---
Okay, Jeff ... I can give you that. But why do you say that Jack's exclusion/ omission in the motel scene is such a cardinal sin? Help me to understand your thought process. Why would Jack bring all of that up when it was 1) while they were apart; and 2) when it had nothing to do with Ennis? The lake scene is difficult for Ennis because Mexico happened after they reunited, not before. That’s the betrayal, IMO
--- Quote from: jpwagoneer1964 on September 17, 2006, 01:59:23 pm ---To me the film showed enough, just, that the passion was still very much alive between Jack and Ennis, Horseback riding, even the lakeside Texas argument, and of course TS3.
--- End quote ---
But the story is more descriptive of their passion in their later years than is the film. For me, I find that to be a (very) small flaw (in the movie). When you read the story, there is no doubt that Jack and Ennis’ love and passion for each other is as intense as it was on BBM. IMO, you don’t sense that in the film until they have their argument. It is at that point where the depth of their feelings for each other is revealed. Don’t get me wrong … I am not saying that don’t love and crave each other. What I am saying is that after the reunion scene, we really don’t see their passion and desire for each other (certainly not to the extent that the story describes).
nakymaton:
Look, I am generally in full agreement with Katherine's statement from another thread. (Not a direct quote: "Never enough se... no, TIME. Never enough TIME.") ;) But, despite that...
I think the sex scene in the last camping trip in the story is as sad as it is passionate. I mean, before the foreplay starts, they're sitting there talking about affairs with women. Jack's lying about his affair, but Ennis seems to mean it. "...she had some problems he didn't want." (Umm, Ennis? Can I play advice columnist here for a moment? There are some other really good reasons not to be seriously involved with her, one of which happens to be sitting there sharing a joint with you.) And then, while they're undoing buttons and all, they're simultaneously having this conversation about their kids. It's like the sort of conversation that old married couples have in bed, except that the sex involves rolling in the dirt, like they could have this really mundane conversation but couldn't wait to get into the tent to have sex, like the passion is both sparked and darkened by its infrequency. Like even after 20 years, they're still pretending.
And so I don't think it would work with the same dynamic in the movie, because we've already seen the tenderness between them, and because that sort of contrast would seem out of place. It isn't so much that movie-Ennis doesn't understand what's going on, but that he's still so tangled up inside that he can't act. And Jack's slowly dying of frustration in the meantime. I'm not sure how another sex scene would have developed that. (Whereas the delivery of the dialogue during the conversation does develop it, I think.)
On the other hand, I sure wouldn't have minded getting to see them make out a bit more. ;D Every now and then, my Inner Naughty Girl and my Inner Defender of Artistic Purity don't quite see eye to eye.
***
Regarding the last confrontation:
I'm still not sure just how important it is that Ennis learns the truth about Jack's involvement with other men. Yes, that's what sparks the threat ("...all them things I don't know could get you killed if I should come to know them.") But it's Ennis, not Jack, who brings them up. Yes, Jack mentions Mexico first, but Ennis goes through his litany of excuses until Jack says "I did once." (Story vs movie note: the story says Jack's tone was "bitter and accusatory." I'm not sure I would describe it that way in the movie, but I'm curious what other people think.) And then Ennis goes off, swears, and then brings up Mexico again. It's as if both Ennis and Jack have things that really bug them but that they've let slide all these years. Jack still resents Ennis's refusal to consider living together. Ennis doesn't like Jack having sex with other men (and is it important to Ennis that Jack lies about it? I don't know). So once Jack crosses the line and brings up his resentment ("I did once"), Ennis responds with his own accusations, and it escalates until Jack says "I wish I knew how to quit you." And I guess I agree with Katherine and Diane that it's that final threat, the threat that things might actually come to an end, that is the real gut-punch to Ennis, story as well as movie.
On the other hand, there's the story line from near the end: "...though Jack had never asked him to swear anything and was himself not the swearing kind." I'm not quite sure what that line means, but I wonder if it's partly a reference to Jack's, hmmmm, non-monogamous leanings (for lack of a good way to put it)?
It's weird, in a way. Story-Jack wants the living-together. Story-Ennis wants the fidelity. Both are things that straight married couples expect of each other (and the lack of one or the other or both can be a factor leading to divorce). In the movie, there's a more clear distinction: Jack wants commitment and Ennis won't give it. But Jack's not as much of a saint in the story, I don't think.
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: nakymaton on September 17, 2006, 11:07:04 pm --- It isn't so much that movie-Ennis doesn't understand what's going on, but that he's still so tangled up inside that he can't act.
--- End quote ---
That seems like a perfect description of movie-Ennis vs. story-Ennis. Movie-Ennis actually gets what's going on pretty well, but is too screwed up to do anything about it. Story-Ennis is a little more mentally healthy but somewhat more clueless, so he might possibly be able to act on it if he could even figure out what "it" is.
--- Quote ---Every now and then, my Inner Naughty Girl and my Inner Defender of Artistic Purity don't quite see eye to eye.
--- End quote ---
I hear you. If only Ang Lee had found a way to satisfy both!
--- Quote ---Story vs movie note: the story says Jack's tone was "bitter and accusatory." I'm not sure I would describe it that way in the movie, but I'm curious what other people think.
--- End quote ---
Me neither. In fact, even though he's angry, movie-Jack still seems to be exercising a bit of tact and restraint. He's not erupting. He's just laying it out, his frustration showing but somewhat reined in, hoping that Ennis will finally get it.
--- Quote --- Ennis doesn't like Jack having sex with other men (and is it important to Ennis that Jack lies about it? I don't know).
--- End quote ---
Actually, I always read/hear "all them things that I don't know could get you killed if I come to know them" as Ennis saying he'd rather not come to know them.
--- Quote ---On the other hand, there's the story line from near the end: "...though Jack had never asked him to swear anything and was himself not the swearing kind." I'm not quite sure what that line means, but I wonder if it's partly a reference to Jack's, hmmmm, non-monogamous leanings (for lack of a good way to put it)?
--- End quote ---
That could be! I always read that as, in saying 'I swear,' Ennis is saying 'I love you,' which Jack himself was never inclined to do (even though Ennis now realizes he did). But there's a part of 'I swear' that also sounds a little like making a long-term commitment, and I guess the fidelity issue would be a part of that. That is, Jack was not the kind to swear lifelong faithfulness -- or to ask it of Ennis -- but at this point Ennis was nevertheless ready to swear that.
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