Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond > Brokeback Mountain Open Forum
getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
Front-Ranger:
Actually, people come to the point rather quickly...it's pretty incredible!!
Happy T-day, naky and everybody.
mlewisusc:
So I finally got to read most of this thread. A topic I loved to death on old Pierre T. Jeff W and I had many an interesting discussion regarding Story Ennis and Jack vs. Film Ennis and Jack. Many things I would love to reply to here, but I only have time for one, a question to everyone and especially to Jeff, as follows: when Story Ennis says to Jack in the motel that he ". . .like(s) doin it with women, yeah . . . " is he lying? To himself? To Jack? Honest? This goes back to an old argument as well (generally debunked) that Ennis was only "queer" for Jack. Let's see if I can put in the quote I want, as follows:
Plus, I think Ennis is still figuring out his sexuality here. That's how I interpret this paragraph:
Quote (from Jeff W)
Ennis pulled Jack's hand to his mouth, took a hit from the cigarette, exhaled. "Sure as hell seem in one piece to me. You know, I was sittin up here all that time tryin to figure out if I was--? I know I ain't. I mean, here we both got wives and kids, right? I like doin it with women, yeah, but Jesus H., ain't nothin like this. I never had no thoughts a doin it with another guy except I sure wrang it out a hunderd times thinkin about you. You do it with other guys? Jack?
Look at that "right?" after "here we both got wives and kids." At this point in the story Ennis is still questioning his sexual orientation--clinging to the notion that having a wife and children means he's not queer. I understand Jack was probably afraid to be honest with Ennis here, but if he had been honest about having sex with other guys in those four years apart from Ennis, it might have helped Ennis come to terms with his own sexuality.
Could Story Ennis be truly bisexual? I side with those who say that most of Film Ennis's issues arise from his struggle against his sexuality. But perhaps Story Ennis's issues arise merely from the misfortune of the only real love in his life being a man. Story Ennis is more concerned with the consequences - physical and potentially social - that arise from a sexual relationship with Jack. Film Ennis is concerned with the fact that he is so attracted to another man, more perhaps than the consequences. Of course, a fact that argues against this interpretation of Story Ennis is contained in the flashback itself (and I understand from reviewing this thread that many of you have a completely different interpretation of this tidbit than I do) as follows: Jack knows that Ennis will not embrace him then face to face because Ennis did not want to know that it was Jack that he held (a paraphrase, of course). They were alone on the mountain, unobserved (to their knowledge) and Ennis still was not other than with the sex itself - consequences were simply not part of the picture and (at least from Jack's perspective) Ennis was still reluctant. Thus, struggling with his sexuality.
This brings up another point that I have made, but I think only on IMDB - I believe that in the Story, NOTHING like the second tent scene occurred. I don't believe the boys kissed - ever - until the four year reunion. Indeed, as Mel says to start this post - neither you the reader nor Story Ennis himself knew Ennis really loved Jack until the end of the story . . .
So I'm a little late coming to the party here folks, but if any one picks this up, I'd love to hear your thoughts. :)
nakymaton:
--- Quote from: mlewisusc on November 27, 2006, 11:53:09 pm ---This brings up another point that I have made, but I think only on IMDB - I believe that in the Story, NOTHING like the second tent scene occurred. I don't believe the boys kissed - ever - until the four year reunion. Indeed, as Mel says to start this post - neither you the reader nor Story Ennis himself knew Ennis really loved Jack until the end of the story . . .
--- End quote ---
I think it's possible that (story) Jack & Ennis didn't kiss until the reunion.
On the other hand, I think it's also possible that they did, but we aren't shown those memories. Near the end of the story, we suddenly learn a lot of details that change our perception of the relationship, that show that the two men were in love, though Ennis (probably) couldn't accept it. If we had known about them kissing on the mountain, would that have changed our perception of the relationship early in the story? I think it would have... I think it would have lessened the emotional punch of those last few pages, because we would have known about the love all along.
(The movie is structured differently, and it's just as effective as the story... I've finally got over my old crankiness about the second tent scene. Though I'm still just as cranky about reading additional mushiness (*cough* "I love you" *cough*) into the movie. ;) )
mlewisusc:
--- Quote from: nakymaton on November 28, 2006, 12:37:40 am ---
(The movie is structured differently, and it's just as effective as the story... I've finally got over my old crankiness about the second tent scene. Though I'm still just as cranky about reading additional mushiness (*cough* "I love you" *cough*) into the movie. ;) )
--- End quote ---
Amen!
mlewisusc:
--- Quote from: nakymaton on November 28, 2006, 12:37:40 am ---I think it's possible that (story) Jack & Ennis didn't kiss until the reunion.
On the other hand, I think it's also possible that they did, but we aren't shown those memories. Near the end of the story, we suddenly learn a lot of details that change our perception of the relationship, that show that the two men were in love, though Ennis (probably) couldn't accept it. If we had known about them kissing on the mountain, would that have changed our perception of the relationship early in the story? I think it would have... I think it would have lessened the emotional punch of those last few pages, because we would have known about the love all along.
(The movie is structured differently, and it's just as effective as the story... I've finally got over my old crankiness about the second tent scene. Though I'm still just as cranky about reading additional mushiness (*cough* "I love you" *cough*) into the movie. ;) )
--- End quote ---
The item that really leads me to believe the boys in the story ONLY had sex and did not kiss prior to the reunion is the flashback to the "embrace" itself, e.g., when Jack realized Ennis wanted to neither see nor feel that it was Jack he held - thus all the affection directed at his back. Which is interesting it its way if you also agree that in the story the boys only had "Ennis pitching/Jack receiving" sexual encounters (was that a delicate enough way of putting it?) and nothing more - perhaps throughout their entire relationship (in the story). This could be further bolstered by Jack's thought, at the time of his flashback, that perhaps they had never progressed much farther.
On the other hand, supporting your point, they had actually got much farther - or rather, the sublime love of their lives was already in place on the mountain, and neither of them realized it until the end of the story. Yeah, Jack did the thing with the shirts, but Ennis tried to puke up his feelings right after they separated.
Well, it's late and I'm babbling.
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