Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond > Brokeback Mountain Open Forum
getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
nakymaton:
--- Quote from: mlewisusc on November 28, 2006, 12:59:04 am ---The item that really leads me to believe the boys in the story ONLY had sex and did not kiss prior to the reunion is the flashback to the "embrace" itself, e.g., when Jack realized Ennis wanted to neither see nor feel that it was Jack he held - thus all the affection directed at his back. Which is interesting it its way if you also agree that in the story the boys only had "Ennis pitching/Jack receiving" sexual encounters (was that a delicate enough way of putting it?) and nothing more - perhaps throughout their entire relationship (in the story). This could be further bolstered by Jack's thought, at the time of his flashback, that perhaps they had never progressed much farther.
--- End quote ---
Yeah, I think the interpretation hinges on how literally you read the flashback to the dozy embrace. Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack that he held. There's the literal description, and then there's the symbolism of Ennis not wanting to "face" his feelings about Jack. It's a fascinating description from a writing perspective -- both "face" and "embrace" can mean literally looking at someone or hugging someone, or figuratively accepting something. But although Proulx uses both words in the passage, the actual description of Ennis's reluctance focuses on the literal act, rather than on the figurative implication. I think she's deliberately evoking both interpretations, but she's subtle about it. (Subtle enough to get people arguing about it!)
In the end, I don't think it matters whether they kissed on the mountain in the story or not. It's a detail that's important for fanfic writers and for people who demand exact translations of a story to a movie, but as far as artistic and emotional impact goes... I think you can believe what you want to believe.
(Edit to fix a typo.)
Meryl:
Hi mlewis, it's great to see you back here. Those were great discussions on the old board. I remember you and Jeff and HobokenJeff really getting into some good ones. 8)
When I think about both Story and Film Ennis struggling with their sexuality, it makes me think of that old book "I'm OK, You're OK," which was based on something called transactional analysis.The author (I think it was Eric Berne) maintained that we all carry our parents around inside us, and when we do something that our parent would have disapproved of, that Inner Parent "beats" our Inner Child. Poor Ennis! His Dad didn't have to show up with the tire iron--he was already there inside Ennis's head, beating him up from the inside.
It's a sad thing to note, but it seems to me that because Ennis was taught--vividly--that homosexuals are contemptible, he is consumed with contempt for himself for his behavior with Jack. He tries to deny it by thinking of it as an exception to his straight orientation, but he knows he's deserving of his Inner Parent's punishment. His perception of himself as contemptible affects all areas of his life, and he never really succeeds at anything. When Film Ennis tells Jack "It's because of you I'm nothin', I'm nowhere" he's articulating that in a very simple but true way.
I'm with Mel in wanting to leave the door open a crack that Story Ennis and Jack did kiss while still on the mountain. They were both so lonely and starved for closeness. Annie Proulx was smart not to say so, though. And I'm in awe of how well Ang Lee managed to show the second night in the tent and still not lose the power of the last scenes.
Penthesilea:
--- Quote ---From mlewisisc:
I side with those who say that most of Film Ennis's issues arise from his struggle against his sexuality. But perhaps Story Ennis's issues arise merely from the misfortune of the only real love in his life being a man. Story Ennis is more concerned with the consequences - physical and potentially social - that arise from a sexual relationship with Jack. Film Ennis is concerned with the fact that he is so attracted to another man, more perhaps than the consequences.
--- End quote ---
I agree with what you said about storyEnnis and movieEnnis here (and I know I'm not the only one - Hi Katherine ;D).
Story Ennis is also more able to voice his thoughts and feelings (especially in the story motel scene), which supports this train of thoughts.
--- Quote ---I don't believe the boys kissed - ever - until the four year reunion.
--- End quote ---
I like to disagree here. I think Mel put it very good:
--- Quote ---but as far as artistic and emotional impact goes... I think you can believe what you want to believe.
--- End quote ---
And let me quote Annie here once more before I give you my interpretation about it: "It is my feeling that a story is not finished until it is read, and that the reader finishes it through his or her life experience, prejudices, world view and thoughts."
I am sure they did kiss on Brokeback. First because they fell in love with each other. Don't matter whether Ennis, both of them or the reader realizes it at that point of he story. It was love, not sex what they found with each other. It was more than a convienient, casual and friendly f*uck. That's what the whole story is about, isn't it?
Second: They had months together.They had much opportunity to have sex, to explore things, their bodies and different kinds of being together. They were young, free and horny. I can't believe they always did just the same old in-and-out-game in the same variation all the time. From story:... let it happen, at first only in the tent at night, then in the full daylight with the hot sun striking down, and at evening, in the fire glow, quick, rough, laughuing and snorting, no lack of noises, but saying not a goddamn word except... And "They believed themselves invisible" Trying, exploring, experimetating. And kissing belongs to exploring each other's bodies.
Third: Even when two people are just f*uck-buddies, or have a ONS together, they very likely kiss. I think it is unlikely in genereal, to be intimate with each other, but to stay clean from kissing. Doesn't make sense.
Fourth, and to me most important: the reunion kiss. ...and easily as the right key turns the lock tumblers, their mouths came together, and hard, Jack's big teeth bringing blood, his hat falling to the floor, stubble rasping, wet salvia welling, ...
This should be their very first kiss? No way.
Penthesilea:
--- Quote from: mlewisusc on November 28, 2006, 12:59:04 am ---The item that really leads me to believe the boys in the story ONLY had sex and did not kiss prior to the reunion is the flashback to the "embrace" itself, e.g., when Jack realized Ennis wanted to neither see nor feel that it was Jack he held - thus all the affection directed at his back.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: nakymaton on November 28, 2006, 01:10:10 am ---Yeah, I think the interpretation hinges on how literally you read the flashback to the dozy embrace. Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack that he held. There's the literal description, and then there's the symbolism of Ennis not wanting to "face" his feelings about Jack. It's a fascinating description from a writing perspective -- both "face" and "embrace" can mean literally looking at someone or hugging someone, or figuratively accepting something. But although Proulx uses both words in the passage, the actual description of Ennis's reluctance focuses on the literal act, rather than on the figurative implication. I think she's deliberately evoking both interpretations, but she's subtle about it. (Subtle enough to get people arguing about it!)
--- End quote ---
The dozy embrace...
It's from Jack's POV. So Jack knew Ennis wouldn't embrace him face to face then - just like Ennis knew it was the tire iron when OMT told him about the other fella (some ranch neigbour, --> Randall in the movie).
But although Ennis "knew", we know the facts about Jack's death are not definite and it's open to interpretation.
So maybe Jack "knew" it in the same way Ennis "knew".
And we don't know when the dozy embrace happened. Could have been relatively early in the summer, shortly after they came together. So maybe then Ennis wouldn't embrace him face to face, but maybe later the same summer.
Hm. I don't believe this myself. But it is a possibility.
"And maybe, he thought, they'd never got much farther than that."
Maybe this sentence does not only refer to the one directly afore (not embracing face to face), but also to the sentence before the embracing: the single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their difficult and seperate lifes.
They've never come much farther to happiness, to contentment, to the sharing their lives, they never came to the sweet life (first sentence it refers to) because Ennis never came to embrace his feelings for Jack freely (second sentence it refers to).
Front-Ranger:
Thanks, mlewis, for reviving this wonderful topic. Did they kiss? I would like to think so. After all, the stud horse strokes the neck of the mare with his after mating. Though they may not have kissed on the mouth (remember that scene in Pretty Woman "Never kiss a client on the mouth!") until the reunion. The movie showed more kissing and it seemed to me to be a more visual representation for some of the dialogue in the story.
Next question: were Ennis and/or Jack bisexual? On the surface, I would say that Ennis seemed more straightforwardly gay, since he didn't seem to get much pleasure from relations either with Alma or Cassie. Jack seemed more bisexual in that he said he liked doin it with women and was sufficiently attracted to Lureen to get lured into a relationship. But the real answer is that most people are bisexual to some degree. That's my take on it.
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