Comparison between '03 to '05 screenplay: would we still be discussing this film

[Daniel]

If you notice...this is a deeply emotional statement for Ennis....

It's more like "No ma'am.... we was..... herdin' sheep on Brokeback.... one summer." as though he is finding the statement too painful to say, and at the same time, coming to grips with what had happened to him, and how much Jack meant to him.

"We was herdin' " allows a contemplative/aching pause where "We herded" doesn't.

[dly64]

I always interpreted it as meaning "Look, this isn't going to happen again"... I still don't think that Ennis knew TS2 was going to happen until he got to his feet and headed for the tent (and even then, I think he was kind of scared, as well as probably excited, and wasn't sure what was going to happen). Yes, I know the verb tenses suggest otherwise, but you know... verb tenses are one of those things that tend to be a bit sloppy with rural dialects. (If somebody uses the subjective tense, they're faking the dialect. )

Mel - I agree with you. Somehow, in the film, I felt as though Ennis was saying ... "we did this once and it stops here ..." The story, however, implies that the "one-shot thing" is for the summer. In essence, it could be both. However, the change from the story (which was the same in the 2003 screenplay) and the 2005 screenplay indicates that Ennis is thinking it won't happen again. Furthermore, the way the 2005 version describes Ennis' motivation before TS2 indicates that he is debating what he is going to do ....  then he decides. Maybe that  is why Ang wanted to add that scene ... to reflect the inner conflict between "I shouldn't do this, but I want to do this ..."

[nakymaton]

"We was herdin' " allows a contemplative/aching pause where "We herded" doesn't.

Yes! Good way to put it.

There's also, for a brief moment, the possibility that Ennis might say something else. (Not that I could imagine him saying anything else, but...)

But, yeah, the rhythm of the language really works well, even if the tense is strange.

(I'm trying to run through all the different ways of using verbs that I'm familiar with, and I think... I think that using the past perfect tense when the regular past tense ('was herding' as opposed to 'herded') is pretty common in some places. But it does imply a kind of continuity that 'herded' doesn't. Like that summer is still going on in Ennis's head.)

Diane: you mean you don't think that Ang added TS2 in hopes of turning the entire audience into an obsessed mass of goo?

Edit: To be more serious about TS2 and the "I'm not queer" statement... I think that Ang included TS2 because the other scenes that were written just didn't convey the emotion he wanted.

And I think that Jack's "one-shot thing" statement in the story is more of an attempt to reassure Ennis. "A one-shot thing. Nobody's business but ours. Now, could you please keep doing what it was that you were doing back when we weren't talking about the sex?"

[dly64]

(I'm trying to run through all the different ways of using verbs that I'm familiar with, and I think... I think that using the past perfect tense when the regular past tense ('was herding' as opposed to 'herded') is pretty common in some places. But it does imply a kind of continuity that 'herded' doesn't. Like that summer is still going on in Ennis's head.)

It is funny ... I never thought of that line as being strange. I guess I am used to hearing language like that. Stuff like "we was bailin' hay last week ..." Sometimes I have to watch myself so that I don't say something that sounds, for lack of a better word, "hickish". (Even that word is a bit hick …)

Diane: you mean you don't think that Ang added TS2 in hopes of turning the entire audience into an obsessed mass of goo?

He may have done it for that reason, too ....

[serious crayons]

Stuff like "we was bailin' hay last week ..."

Well, "we was bailin hay last week" makes a little more sense because it's so recent. In a way that "we was herdin sheep 20 years ago" doesn't. But Daniel's explanation makes sense.

Back to "one-shot thing." When Jack says it in the story, it seems like "it's nobody's business but ours" -- a reassurance for Ennis. When Ennis says it to Jack, it seems like a setting of the ground rules.

The way I interpret it is, after leaving the camp Ennis rides along mulling over the night before. The death music sounds ominous, but Ennis seems less disturbed than thoughtful. Then the dead sheep -- a warning. But he kills the coyote, as if vanquishing the bad omen. He thinks about the situation all day before Jack shows up, deciding this is an opportunity. He might as well take his "one shot" at living the way he'd secretly like to.

To me, it's a prolonged, more complex dramatization of the story's "without saying anything about it both knew how it would go for the rest of the summer."

[jpwagoneer1964]

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Back to "one-shot thing." When Jack says it in the story, it seems like "it's nobody's business but ours" -- a reassurance for Ennis. When Ennis says it to Jack, it seems like a setting of the ground rules.

To me, it's a prolonged, more complex dramatization of the story's "without saying anything about it both knew how it would go for the rest of the summer."

Well put. You notice how up with the sheep after "You know i ain't...." Jack and Ennis just sit there close just a few inches apart, to me it's so important how that scene is held. I don't think they hardly said a word until we see Ennis by the tent, but I'll bet they rode down together, and fixed supper, barley inches apart the whole time.

[dly64]

Back to "one-shot thing." When Jack says it in the story, it seems like "it's nobody's business but ours" -- a reassurance for Ennis. When Ennis says it to Jack, it seems like a setting of the ground rules.

The way I interpret it is, after leaving the camp Ennis rides along mulling over the night before. The death music sounds ominous, but Ennis seems less disturbed than thoughtful. Then the dead sheep -- a warning. But he kills the coyote, as if vanquishing the bad omen. He thinks about the situation all day before Jack shows up, deciding this is an opportunity. He might as well take his "one shot" at living the way he'd secretly like to.

To me, it's a prolonged, more complex dramatization of the story's "without saying anything about it both knew how it would go for the rest of the summer."

I understand your rationale … it makes sense. The story definitely follows this logic. The biggest thing that holds me back with that explanation for the film, however, is right before TS2. I mentioned this before. Help me to understand your POV…. The 2005 screenplay states:

Ennis, pensive, glances over towards the tent. Decides. Gets up. Goes to the tent.

If they were setting the “ground rules” (which is  what they do in the story), what would Ennis have to decide? Why is he thinking before going into the tent? It seems to me that he knows if he goes into that tent (which he wants to do, but is scared) they will continue what had begun the night before. Isn’t that his decision? To continue what has begun, or to stop it?

[serious crayons]

I see what you are saying about the "decides." Setting that aside just for a moment, what it appears to me that he's doing when he's sitting by the fire is gathering up his courage. He's nervous but excited, maybe thinking something along the lines of, "OK, here we go. Am I ready for this? I hope so." Meanwhile Jack, inside the tent, looks like he anticipates Ennis coming in and is getting undressed in preparation. When Ennis does go in, they both look like that's exactly what they expected to happen.

So what about the "decides"? I guess from this perspective it means either that he decides that OK, here I go, now's the time, or maybe that he is still harboring some tiny bit of doubt and decides to ignore that and go for it. Or maybe it's just one of those stage directions that fell by the wayside, like the one about Ennis sending Carl a murderous look.

In any case, even if the "decides" just doesn't make sense under this interpretation, to me it makes no less sense than Ennis' open-ended verbs in "this is a one shot thing we got goin on" under the other interpretation. That is, either way you look at it, you have to ignore something incongruous. But if I have to ignore something I guess I'd rather have it be in the screenplay than the movie itself.

[dly64]

I see what you are saying about the "decides." Setting that aside just for a moment, what it appears to me that he's doing when he's sitting by the fire is gathering up his courage. He's nervous but excited, maybe thinking something along the lines of, "OK, here we go. Am I ready for this? I hope so." Meanwhile Jack, inside the tent, looks like he anticipates Ennis coming in and is getting undressed in preparation. When Ennis does go in, they both look like that's exactly what they expected to happen.

OMG, Katherine! I never thought of it that way at all ... but I love the interpretation. Hmmmmm ..... guess I'll just have to watch it tonight with that in mind! 

[serious crayons]

OMG, Katherine! I never thought of it that way at all ... but I love the interpretation. Hmmmmm ..... guess I'll just have to watch it tonight with that in mind! 

That's very dedicated of you to make that commitment in the name of research!