Saddam executed; Your thoughts?

[Wayne]

If karma really does come around, then I am concerned for the safety of the United States.

Saddam was hanged for killing people in 1982 during the Reagan years when US money was pouring into his bank account.



Anybody remember the details? Weren't we supporting him in the war against Iran? And secretly sending guns to Iran as well?

How come we had to invade and overthrow him 20 years later when he had stopped killing?

[injest]

Delalluvia

I didn't say that gays and blacks that have been lynched are the same as Saddam...I am saying the PROCESS is the same....

the Shites do not have a just system set up...and there was no fair trial here. We supported Saddam publically while he murdered people. and now we turn him over to a 'drumhead' trial. Letting other people do things we can not does not absolve us of guilt. I guess we will never know now just how much we supported him...and what deals he had made with our leaders.

and the ONE thing I have learned from being online? Not everything the news tells us is true.

Your first line was you support the death penalty. You didn't qualify it.

[delalluvia]

If karma really does come around, then I am concerned for the safety of the United States.

Don't worry.  Karma is offset by lots of things.  I don't think Saddam had as many good points to offset the bad.

[Lynne]

I thought this was interesting and not completely off-topic.  It's an excerpt from Matthew Shepard's father's speech at one of his murderer's sentencing.  The full text of his speech is here:

http://www.wiredstrategies.com/mrshep.htm

"Mr. McKinney, one final comment before I sit, and this is the reason that I stand before you now. At no time since Matt was found at the fence and taken to the hospital have Judy and I made any statements about our beliefs concerning the death penalty. We felt that that would be an undue influence on any prospective juror. Judy has been quoted by some right-wing groups as being against the death penalty. It has been stated that Matt was against the death penalty. Both of these statements are wrong. We have held family discussions and talked about the death penalty. Matt believed that there were incidents and crimes that justified the death penalty. For example, he and I discussed the horrible death of James Byrd, Jr. in Jasper, Texas. It was his opinion that the death penalty should be sought and that no expense should be spared to bring those responsible for this murder to justice. Little did we know that the same response would come about involving Matt. I, too, believe in the death penalty. I would like nothing better than to see you die, Mr. McKinney. However, this is the time to begin the healing process. To show mercy to someone who refused to show any mercy. To use this as the first step in my own closure about losing Matt. Mr. McKinney, I am not doing this because of your family. I am definitely not doing this because of the crass and unwarranted pressures put on by the religious community. If anything, that hardens my resolve to see you die. Mr. McKinney, I’m going to grant you life, as hard as that is for me to do, because of Matthew. Every time you celebrate Christmas, a birthday, or the Fourth of July, remember that Matt isn’t. Every time that you wake up in that prison cell, remember that you had the opportunity and the ability to stop your actions that night. Every time that you see your cell mate, remember that you had a choice, and now you are living that choice. You robbed me of something very precious, and I will never forgive you for that. Mr. McKinney, I give you life in the memory of one who no longer lives. May you have a long life, and may you thank Matthew every day for it."

[Wayne]

Checking back in Wikipedia...

In 1982 with Iranian success on the battlefield, the U.S. made its backing of Iraq more pronounced, supplying it with intelligence, economic aid, normalizing relations with the government (broken during the 1967 Six-Day War), and also supplying weapons.[11] President Ronald Reagan decided that the United States "could not afford to allow Iraq to lose the war to Iran", and that the United States "would do whatever was necessary and legal to prevent Iraq from losing the war with Iran."[12] President Reagan formalized this policy by issuing a National Security Decision Directive ("NSDD") to this effect in June, 1982.[13]

What a coincidence that "he who shall not be named" declared his support for Saddam against the Shiites in 1982! Why, that's the very same year as the killings of Shiites that Saddam was hanged for just a few hours ago.       

[injest]

OK, so you're asking, do I believe in capital punishment for EVERYTHING?

Of course not.  That's ludicrous.  For extreme violent crimes?  For sociopaths/psychopaths?  Most certainly.

That fits Saddam to a T.

The Iraqi people wanted him tried and approved of his execution.  Are you saying that because people want a psychopathic mass murderer executed, punished for his crimes, that makes Joe in the Street exactly the same as Saddam?

Reverend Phelps believes that gays are psychotic...and deserve to die

Did they also list the outright murders, tortures and gassing of the Kurds?  Hmmm.

we were giving him money and hailing him as a friend even AFTER he did this...and now we are going to point in horror and say he deserves to die now? twenty years later? A little slow on the moral outrage aren't we?

Of course I draw the line at lynching.  I believe in a justice system.  Mine just happens to include captial punishment for extreme violent crimes, which I approve of.

you are aware that we have executed innocent people? How many innocent people are acceptable to you?

until we can make sure that rich white people are as likely to be executed as poor minorities and we can be SURE that we are not murdering innocent people I oppose the death penalty...that includes for people or groups I don't like

[Shakesthecoffecan]

I think anytime some's death is put up in the media for examination, it is sickening thing. I am not in favor of the death penalty, so much so I have in my will that if I am murdered my killer is not to receive the death penalty. People like Sadam deserve to be locked away for the rest of their days, killing them only satisfies a blood lust we need to evolve away from.

[delalluvia]

I didn't say that gays and blacks that have been lynched are the same as Saddam...I am saying the PROCESS is the same.

So you're saying lynching and state executions have the same process?

Well, the justice system in the US is pretty much based on a trial of one's peers.  The majority (12 people on the grand jury, 12 people on a trial jury) bringing down a verdict for a single person.

Laws are made by lawmakers who were voted in by a majority of the people, who get their laws passed by a majority of the vote in the House/Senate.

I don't think you can escape that aspect of the justice process.

the Shites do not have a just system set up...and there was no fair trial here.

True, the invasion had just destroyed the justice system that existed, such as it was.  The Iraqi people - not just the Shiites,the Kurds too, - wanted Saddam tried and punished for his crimes.  This was their decision.  So the US helped set them up a court.

Fair trial?  Probably not.  But was there any real doubt of Saddam's guilt?  The outcome was already known, regardless of whether the trial was held in a kangaroo court or not.

We supported Saddam publically while he murdered people. and now we turn him over to a 'drumhead' trial. Letting other people do things we can not does not absolve us of guilt. I guess we will never know now just how much we supported him...and what deals he had made with our leaders.

Does it matter?  The US also supported Iran - under the Shah - and armed Saddam when he fought against them when the Ayatollah took over.  The US also armed Bin Laden in Afghanistan, we also sent supplies to Stalin.  Politics make strange bedfellows.  Two people/nations/groups allied against a common enemy does not make them friends.

and the ONE thing I have learned from being online? Not everything the news tells us is true.

Agreed.  I still have my suspicions.  According to al-Jereeza was it?  The tape of the execution stopped right before he swung.  Then the tape shows a body in a bag that looks like Saddam.  Reports state that Saddam was very calm as he went to the platform.  If he knew he wasn't going to be executed, that would help explain his attitude.

Your first line was you support the death penalty. You didn't qualify it.

Oops, sorry about that, I was speaking in the context of my own nation.

[Wayne]

I am not in favor of the death penalty, so much so I have in my will that if I am murdered my killer is not to receive the death penalty.
...
killing them only satisfies a blood lust we need to evolve away from.

Wow - what a great step Truman. I agree - killing just leads to more anger and more killing.

[delalluvia]

Reverend Phelps believes that gays are psychotic...and deserve to die

Yep.  Many men in this world believe that women aren't as important as men and deserve to die for any rejection of them.  Are Reverand Phieps and those kind of men the majority in this country?  Nope.

we were giving him money and hailing him as a friend even AFTER he did this...and now we are going to point in horror and say he deserves to die now? twenty years later? A little slow on the moral outrage aren't we?

It isn't the US that's trying him.  It's the Iraqis.  If they want to allow it, why not?  It's their country.

you are aware that we have executed innocent people? How many innocent people are acceptable to you?

Yes, I am aware of that.  That's why I approve in this country of the very long appeal process.  Give those condemned enough time for new information and technology to surface that might prove them innocent.

As to how many?  Well, there is a famous quote - forget by who - that goes, "I'd rather see 10 guilty men go free, than 1 innocent man be imprisoned" or something like that.

I think whoever said that lived in a time where one person had limited impact.  A time before one person could fly a plane into a building and kill 15,000 people.  A time before one person could set off a nuclear bomb/virus into a population and kill millions, before one person could access explosives and kill not only themselves, but many other people around them.

I'm not sure how many innocents are acceptable.  I suppose sufficient before it becomes a liability to the rest.  Are the needs of the many outweighed by the needs of the few?

until we can make sure that rich white people are as likely to be executed as poor minorities and we can be SURE that we are not murdering innocent people I oppose the death penalty...that includes for people or groups I don't like

I've heard this argument before and it makes no sense to me.  If rich white people escaped the death penalty and poor minorities did not, that only means the rich people got off easy for the same crime.  It doesn't mean the crime did not deserve the punishment the poor minorities got.

Hypothetically speaking, if Adolfo de Jesus Constanzo got the death penalty for his crimes and Ted Bundy did not, that just means Ted Bundy got off easy, it doesn't mean Adolfo de Jesus Constanzo didn't get what he had coming.