Author Topic: Mandatory Viewing  (Read 27194 times)

Offline ednbarby

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Mandatory Viewing
« on: April 19, 2006, 09:21:12 am »
My husband and I were talking about you-know-what last night, and he admitted that it actually has changed the way he thinks about gay men.  Here I always thought he was even more progressive than I, but it turns out he too had some of the deeply-ingrained homophobic thoughts and feelings I thought he was above having.  He said, "I think this movie should be mandatory viewing for, well..., everyone, but especially straight men.  Are they talking about showing it in colleges?"  I told him about what I know of some profs showing it already in Human Sexuality, Sociology and Psychology classes.

It got me to thinking what other movies should be mandatory viewing for the masses.  What movies have actually changed your understanding of some aspect of the human condition and made you a more generously loving person?  Here are some others that immediately come to mind to me:

The Accused
Schindler's List
Dead Man Walking
Snow Falling On Cedars
Rabbit-Proof Fence

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moremojo

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2006, 09:31:03 am »
Great topic! Don't have a lot of time to chime in right now, but two titles that immediately come to mind are Au hasard Balthazar, directed by Robert Bresson, and Unsere Afrikareise, directed by Peter Kubelka. Both were made in 1966, and both are cinematic masterpieces. Both films deal, in their different ways, with the theme of human cruelty to non-human animals, and are really eye-openers on that score.

Another great film worthy of mention is Beau travail, a 1999 feature directed by Claire Denis. An updating of Herman Melville's Billy Budd, this beautiful film shows, like in Brokeback Mountain, how repressed homosexual desire can poison and destroy the lives of men. One of the last great films of the twentieth century, and one of the best gay-themed films I have seen.

Cheers,
Scott
« Last Edit: February 15, 2008, 06:35:36 pm by moremojo »

Offline littleguitar

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2006, 09:35:33 am »
I just wanted to say, on the topic of teaching it in classes, my professor is teaching a course this summer with Brokeback (both story and film)

It's a literature into film course, so not about homophobia necessarily, but it will get a lot of people to see it... I know a few people myself who are taking that class but haven't seen Brokeback and said they weren't going to.  If only I weren't graduating this semester I would for sure take it  ::)

‘cause the truth is, I already give him everythin’ I got to give, more than I ever even knew I had; ‘n it all for him, all of it, him who is my brother, my father, my child, my friend, my lover, my heart, my soul; my Ennis.

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Offline isabelle

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2006, 04:37:38 pm »
I just wanted to say, on the topic of teaching it in classes, my professor is teaching a course this summer with Brokeback (both story and film)

It's a literature into film course, so not about homophobia necessarily, but it will get a lot of people to see it... I know a few people myself who are taking that class but haven't seen Brokeback and said they weren't going to.  If only I weren't graduating this semester I would for sure take it  ::)



HeHe... I am a teacher myself, and my pupils have to put up with me and what I choose to make them study throughout the school-year (they have no choice of courses). So guess what I will be making them study next academic year? Yes...!
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Offline henrypie

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2006, 04:40:17 pm »
Ma vie en rose!

Offline isabelle

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2006, 04:50:56 pm »
Anyone heard of this French film, "Le Retour de Martin Guerre"? About (real) adultery, and how it is not always worthy of condemnation...
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Offline ednbarby

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2006, 05:14:54 pm »
Anyone heard of this French film, "Le Retour de Martin Guerre"? About (real) adultery, and how it is not always worthy of condemnation...

I've heard of that.  Isn't it what "Somersby" with Jodie Foster and Richard Gere is based on?  Somersby returns after being in prison, but is he really her (abusive) husband who's changed, or someone who looks just like him but who is a generous, gentle soul?  I loved the premise of that movie.  I've been meaning to see the original ever since.
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moremojo

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2006, 05:16:01 pm »
Anyone heard of this French film, "Le Retour de Martin Guerre"? About (real) adultery, and how it is not always worthy of condemnation...
Yes, I've seen this film, some time back when it was in theatrical release. One feels great sympathy for Nathalie Baye's character--like Ennis, in her very different way, she was doing the best she could with what she knew and expected from her world. A wonderful performance among many, in a very intelligent and thought-provoking period film.

Alain Resnais's great 1959 film Hiroshima mon amour, with a screenplay by Marguerite Duras, is another movie where adulterous characters are treated with great sympathy and insight.

Scott
« Last Edit: February 15, 2008, 06:37:32 pm by moremojo »

Offline monimm18

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2006, 11:45:28 pm »
Barb, you got a good list there. If I may add:

No Man's Land
Malena
Mediterraneo
Taking Sides
The Elephant Man
Burnt by the Sun



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Offline delalluvia

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2006, 11:57:55 pm »
Heathers
Donnie Darko

Offline JCinNYC2006

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2006, 12:53:19 am »
Another great film worthy of mention is Beau travail, a 1999 feature directed by Claire Denis. An updating of Herman Melville's Billy Budd, this beautiful film shows, like in Brokeback Mountain, how repressed homosexual desire can poison and destroy the lives of men. One of the last great films of the twentieth century, and one of the best gay-themed films I have seen.

Cheers,
Scott M.
I hate not having time to post on here like I used to...

Scott, so you liked Beau Travail?  I have it but haven't watched it for fear of it being a kind of homoerotic Skinemax-ready movie.  But you give it a pretty good endorsement, so I think I will check it out.

Other movies that come to mind that have good underlying social justic themes and are entertaining movies:

  • Wilde
  • Gallipolli
  • Maria Full of Grace
  • Brother to Brother
  • In The Name of The Father
  • City of God
  • Dirty Pretty Things
  • My Beautiful Laundrette
  • The Motorcycle Diaries
  • Crash



Just kidding about Crash.   :o

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Offline Ellemeno

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2006, 01:21:24 am »
Wow, I haven't seen any of these.  Thanks you guys.

Offline j.U.d.E.

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2006, 05:27:12 am »
Have seen (listed by some of you):
The Accused
Schindler's List
Dead Man Walking
Rabbit-Proof Fence
No Man's Land
The Elephant Man
Donnie Darko
Wilde
Gallipolli
Maria Full of Grace
In The Name of The Father
My Beautiful Laundrette
The Motorcycle Diaries
Crash

I'd add:
Bent
Wir zusammen allein mit Dir
Dog Day Afternoon
Hotel Rwanda
Cry Freedom
And the Band Played On
The Crying Game
Festen
Un Amour à Taire
Lola + Bilidikid
Boys Don't Cry
Au revoir, les enfants
The Chosen (1981)

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Offline Sheyne

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2006, 06:08:35 am »

Sorry but I loved Dead Poet Society (being a teacher and all... as well as somebody who has seen the devastating effects of suicides on a family - not my own, but close to me).

I'd also recommend: The Outsiders, Traffic, The Shawshank Redemption

And I'm going to have to add - but before I do *Sheyne holds up riot shield for protection*...

Bowling for Columbine... I am going to come right out now and say that I liked this film. *ducks*

Even though Mike Moore is an egotistical, love him or loathe-him-with-fiery-passion, sensationalist, and-at-times-blatantly-manipulative film-maker, he has his moments. This was one for me. I liked this film for 2 scenes: the interview with Marilyn Manson, who until I saw this movie, I had always dismissed as nothing more than a talentless, attention-seeking, sicko wanker. Gotta love a film that can change my mind about a person with a 4 minute interview.  :-\  Not that I like him. Its just I kinda respect him now.  The other scene I love at the end is when Moore makes Charlton Heston look like a weakling.  The way I look at it is: Moore decided to make a movie about how bad gun violence is. And that's what he did.  I'm not saying I blindly believe everything that was in the movie, but it gave me food for thought. I don't live there in the States, but I do live in the country that holds the current world record for the worst mass killing (Port Arthur, 1996, 35 people killed). And as a teacher who works in a socio-economic area that reeks of despair and desperation (and don't think that the thought of a kid obtaining a gun and shooting up my school doesn't cross my mind every day), it hit a particularly big nerve with me.  I liked it anyways, I'll completely respect your opinions if you don't feel the same way... *tentatively lowers riot shield*

Oh and I completely agree with whoever said Donnie Darko.. even if its only for the whole visual orgasm that is Jake G.  ;D
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Offline henrypie

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2006, 01:29:23 pm »
Has anyone seen Ma vie en Rose?
Sorry my horn only has one key/button/hole.

It's about a child who's a boy on the outside and a girl on the inside.  It's been awhile since I saw it but I remember its being beautifully done.

moremojo

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2006, 02:01:46 pm »
Has anyone seen Ma vie en Rose?
Sorry my horn only has one key/button/hole.

It's about a child who's a boy on the outside and a girl on the inside.  It's been awhile since I saw it but I remember its being beautifully done.
Yes, I saw this film a few years back, at the theatre with my sister. We both enjoyed it. I didn't necessarily see the little boy as a girl trapped inside a male body (i.e., a transsexual), but perhaps a child with homosexual tendencies who identified more strongly with those of the opposite sex at that age. This was certainly true of me in my early childhood--I was interested in girls' things, felt more comfortable being around girls, and even wanted to be a girl. This desire to be a girl faded away as I progressed further towards puberty--and my interest in boys grew in proportion.

Scott
« Last Edit: February 15, 2008, 06:42:57 pm by moremojo »

Offline JCinNYC2006

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2006, 02:24:10 pm »
Yes, I saw this film a few years back, at the theatre with my sister. We both enjoyed it. I didn't necessarily see the little boy as a girl trapped inside a male body (i.e., a transsexual), but perhaps a child with homosexual tendencies who identified more strongly with those of the opposite sex at that age. This was certainly true of me in my early childhood--I was interested in girls' things, felt more comfortable being around girls, and even wanted to be a girl. This desire to be a girl faded away as I progressed further towards puberty--and my interest in boys grew in proportion.

Scott M.
I thought the same thing.  Ostensibly it's about a boy who could be transgender.  But there's a moment in the movie, I think it's when he asks his mother what a 'tapette' is, and she says something like, it's boys like you.  I went, ohhhhhh, he's a queer boy who identifies with girls. 

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Offline delalluvia

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2006, 07:20:49 pm »

Bowling for Columbine... I am going to come right out now and say that I liked this film. *ducks*

Even though Mike Moore is an egotistical, love him or loathe-him-with-fiery-passion, sensationalist, and-at-times-blatantly-manipulative film-maker, he has his moments. The other scene I love at the end is when Moore makes Charlton Heston look like a weakling.  The way I look at it is: Moore decided to make a movie about how bad gun violence is. And that's what he did.  I'm not saying I blindly believe everything that was in the movie, but it gave me food for thought. I don't live there in the States, but I do live in the country that holds the current world record for the worst mass killing (Port Arthur, 1996, 35 people killed). And as a teacher who works in a socio-economic area that reeks of despair and desperation (and don't think that the thought of a kid obtaining a gun and shooting up my school doesn't cross my mind every day), it hit a particularly big nerve with me.  I liked it anyways, I'll completely respect your opinions if you don't feel the same way... *tentatively lowers riot shield*


Oh, I agree MM has his moments, brilliant moments, but the Charleston Heston one was despicable.  I hated that part.  MM was so deceptive, so misleading, so everything I hate about the media.  He was SO manipulative and so obvious about it.  It made Heston look like a paragon of gentlemanly virtue compared to MM's hack.   >:(

slayers_creek_oth

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2006, 07:21:59 pm »
I just watched Schindler's List a few days ago......that movie has some power to it! 

Offline Flashframe777

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2006, 12:50:45 am »
"Powder"...yes, "Powder" with Sean Patrick Flannery.

And "Beloved" with Oparah...

'Scuse me? How come none of you told me that Jared Leto was the love of Colin Farrell's life in "Alexander"  Even though you knew I would fast forward through the battle scenes?

« Last Edit: April 21, 2006, 12:53:48 am by Flashframe777 »
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Offline JennyC

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2006, 01:20:33 am »
Great recommendations so far!  I will also add

Gandhi:  for one man’s perseverance and believe that changed the history, for the power of non-violence, civil disobedience.  You can see many similarities between Gandhi and Dr. Martin Luther King.

vkm91941

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2006, 01:31:16 am »
"Powder"...yes, "Powder" with Sean Patrick Flannery.

And "Beloved" with Oparah...

'Scuse me? How come none of you told me that Jared Leto was the love of Colin Farrell's life in "Alexander"  Even though you knew I would fast forward through the battle scenes?



Jared Leto is still looking just beautiful isn't he!  Those eyes

Offline ednbarby

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2006, 06:30:59 am »

Sorry but I loved Dead Poet Society (being a teacher and all... as well as somebody who has seen the devastating effects of suicides on a family - not my own, but close to me).

I'd also recommend: The Outsiders, Traffic, The Shawshank Redemption

And I'm going to have to add - but before I do *Sheyne holds up riot shield for protection*...

Bowling for Columbine... I am going to come right out now and say that I liked this film. *ducks*

Even though Mike Moore is an egotistical, love him or loathe-him-with-fiery-passion, sensationalist, and-at-times-blatantly-manipulative film-maker, he has his moments. This was one for me. I liked this film for 2 scenes: the interview with Marilyn Manson, who until I saw this movie, I had always dismissed as nothing more than a talentless, attention-seeking, sicko wanker. Gotta love a film that can change my mind about a person with a 4 minute interview.  :-\  Not that I like him. Its just I kinda respect him now.  The other scene I love at the end is when Moore makes Charlton Heston look like a weakling.  The way I look at it is: Moore decided to make a movie about how bad gun violence is. And that's what he did.  I'm not saying I blindly believe everything that was in the movie, but it gave me food for thought. I don't live there in the States, but I do live in the country that holds the current world record for the worst mass killing (Port Arthur, 1996, 35 people killed). And as a teacher who works in a socio-economic area that reeks of despair and desperation (and don't think that the thought of a kid obtaining a gun and shooting up my school doesn't cross my mind every day), it hit a particularly big nerve with me.  I liked it anyways, I'll completely respect your opinions if you don't feel the same way... *tentatively lowers riot shield*

You can lower it all the way with me, baby.  I LOVE that film.  And Marilyn Manson - YES!  I think I might have actually fallen in love with him in that scene.  He comes on the screen and I think, "Oh, geez, here we go..." and what comes out of his mouth is some of the most beautiful, heart-wrenching truth I've ever heard uttered in the English language.  Talk about being so totally wrong in your impressions of another person.  My heart grew three sizes that day.  And the Charleton Heston sequence was Da Bomb.  Talk about ending a movie with a bang and not a whimper.  What a monumental horse's ass he proved himself to be.  I always suspected it, but now it's immortalized on film.

My husband is one of those who cannot stand Michael Moore the person.  But he thought this and Farenheit 9/11 were brilliant, especially the latter.  His only beef with F 9/11 is that Moore didn't end it with his favorite Who song ("We Won't Get Fooled Again") instead of whatever one he chose which escapes me now.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2006, 06:33:19 am by ednbarby »
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Offline ednbarby

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2006, 07:17:31 am »
Ooh, and speaking of documentaries, I *cannot* believe I forgot to add this one to my list:  Hoop Dreams.  If you want to know the *true* state of race relations in this country, you need look no further.  Quite possibly the best documentary ever made.
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #24 on: April 21, 2006, 07:18:13 am »
'Scuse me? How come none of you told me that Jared Leto was the love of Colin Farrell's life in "Alexander"  Even though you knew I would fast forward through the battle scenes?

Where you been flash?  Why do yoiu think I was on the 'Alexander' board for 4 months and I keep saying that not even Jake has pushed Jared off his pedestal yet?

Jared was ungodly meltingly beautiful in that movie.  Even if the only skin he showed was a saucy bit of bosom. :-*

« Last Edit: April 21, 2006, 07:30:04 am by delalluvia »

Offline Sheyne

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #25 on: April 21, 2006, 09:01:27 am »
You can lower it all the way with me, baby.  I LOVE that film.  And Marilyn Manson - YES!  I think I might have actually fallen in love with him in that scene.  He comes on the screen and I think, "Oh, geez, here we go..." and what comes out of his mouth is some of the most beautiful, heart-wrenching truth I've ever heard uttered in the English language.  Talk about being so totally wrong in your impressions of another person.  My heart grew three sizes that day.  And the Charleton Heston sequence was Da Bomb.  Talk about ending a movie with a bang and not a whimper.  What a monumental horse's ass he proved himself to be.  I always suspected it, but now it's immortalized on film.

My husband is one of those who cannot stand Michael Moore the person.  But he thought this and Farenheit 9/11 were brilliant, especially the latter.  His only beef with F 9/11 is that Moore didn't end it with his favorite Who song ("We Won't Get Fooled Again") instead of whatever one he chose which escapes me now.

*tosses riot shield aside*

Phew.. thanks, Barb.  The first time I watched BFC was at home on DVD and I didn't even see the whole movie. My then-partner and I got home about half an hour into it. We were immediately engrossed. My dad - who never gets out movies - checked it out on DVD on the recommendation of a friend. We watched it right to the end (the planned dinner-and-drinks be damned!! lol)..  And the Manson interview. What an intelligent, almost poetic guy he was!!!  The complete antithesis of his rock persona. You know the part I'm talking about, right Barb?  Moore: What would you say to them?  Manson: "I wouldn't say a word. I'd shut up and listen to what they had to say. That's what no-one did."  Tell me that doesn't strike a chord that vibrates for a looooong time!! So true. Very insightful man.

Del was saying in an earlier post that she hated the Heston scene.  I say each to his own on this. It was a very manipulative and cheeky tactic. Heston clearly didn't know it was coming. But having the balls to take the Columbine massacre to the head of the NRA and demand answers?? You gotta be very brave or very stupid.  Either way, Heston came off looking like a dick. And - you should know i am VERY anti-gun - personally, I thought he deserved it. Never liked him as an actor. Like him even less as the president of the National Rifle Assn.  Wouldn't you love to strap him to a chair and make him watch Brokeback, hunh?? lol  ;D
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Offline ednbarby

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #26 on: April 21, 2006, 09:44:44 am »
Phew.. thanks, Barb.  The first time I watched BFC was at home on DVD and I didn't even see the whole movie. My then-partner and I got home about half an hour into it. We were immediately engrossed. My dad - who never gets out movies - checked it out on DVD on the recommendation of a friend. We watched it right to the end (the planned dinner-and-drinks be damned!! lol)..  And the Manson interview. What an intelligent, almost poetic guy he was!!!  The complete antithesis of his rock persona. You know the part I'm talking about, right Barb?  Moore: What would you say to them?  Manson: "I wouldn't say a word. I'd shut up and listen to what they had to say. That's what no-one did."  Tell me that doesn't strike a chord that vibrates for a looooong time!! So true. Very insightful man.

Yep - that's right when I fell in love with him.  I think I gasped out loud in the theater upon his saying "That's what no one did."  So did several other people.  I saw BFC on its opening weekend at the one art cinema down here - it was packed with liberals.  A beautiful, beautiful thing.  I saw F 9/11 the same way.  Took a half vacation day from work to do it.  It was worth every penny.


Del was saying in an earlier post that she hated the Heston scene.  I say each to his own on this. It was a very manipulative and cheeky tactic. Heston clearly didn't know it was coming. But having the balls to take the Columbine massacre to the head of the NRA and demand answers?? You gotta be very brave or very stupid.  Either way, Heston came off looking like a dick. And - you should know i am VERY anti-gun - personally, I thought he deserved it. Never liked him as an actor. Like him even less as the president of the National Rifle Assn.  Wouldn't you love to strap him to a chair and make him watch Brokeback, hunh?? lol  ;D

Say what you will about Michael Moore - the man is utterly fearless.  And yes, I would love to strap Heston down, A Clockwork Orange styl-lee, and watch him squirm during the first tent scene.  Then I think I'd make him watch Katie Couric, the bitch, making a grown man cry on network television in describing how he felt when he got the news his only son had been shot to death in the face by a fellow classmate.  Over and over and over.

(The important thing is I'm not bitter.)
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Offline henrypie

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #27 on: April 21, 2006, 10:19:53 am »
I love you Barb.

Gotta sprinkle my I love yous from my I love you can.

Want my love-petunias to grow.

Offline ednbarby

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #28 on: April 21, 2006, 11:17:53 am »
I love you Barb.

Gotta sprinkle my I love yous from my I love you can.

Want my love-petunias to grow.

You know I love you too, babe.  Check your PMs.  Got a love letter especially for you come general delivery.
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Offline starboardlight

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #29 on: April 21, 2006, 01:39:20 pm »
Anyone heard of this French film, "Le Retour de Martin Guerre"? About (real) adultery, and how it is not always worthy of condemnation...

YES! I haven't thought of that movie in a long time, but I remember being completely in awe of it when I first saw it.
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Offline starboardlight

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #30 on: April 21, 2006, 01:47:46 pm »
'Scuse me? How come none of you told me that Jared Leto was the love of Colin Farrell's life in "Alexander"  Even though you knew I would fast forward through the battle scenes?

Where you been flash?  Why do yoiu think I was on the 'Alexander' board for 4 months and I keep saying that not even Jake has pushed Jared off his pedestal yet?

Jared was ungodly meltingly beautiful in that movie.  Even if the only skin he showed was a saucy bit of bosom. :-*



the way the silk drapes over his shoulder and chest. yum.
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Offline starboardlight

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #31 on: April 21, 2006, 01:55:24 pm »
I don't know how many of you are into anime, but I really love "Grave of the Fireflies"
http://imdb.com/title/tt0095327/

It's not one of those action/fantasy type anime, but a human story about a boy taking care of his sister during WWII. If you thought "Saving Private Ryan" showed the ugly side of war, you haven't seen anything. The real cost of war is not to just the soldiers, but more tragically to those who aren't able to even grasp the concept yet. For most of us, Germany and Japan have been demonized in history, but we forget the humanity behind the war. I highly recommend it. I also believe it's really shows you the great art of animation like never. The characters come to life like nothing that Disney or Warner Brothers have been able to do.
"To do is to be." Socrates. - "To be is to do." Plato. - "Do be do be do" Sinatra.

Offline ednbarby

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #32 on: April 21, 2006, 05:30:27 pm »
I haven't seen that Nipith, but it sounds wonderful.  Kind of along those lines, I would highly recommend The Iron Giant, based on a story by the poet laureate Ted Hughes.  Again a case of animated characters coming to life in such a way as you can't stop thinking about them long after the credits roll.  And a beautiful story about what Christ really taught - about loving all living things equally and unconditionally and without judgment.  Beautiful.
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #33 on: April 21, 2006, 07:43:06 pm »
Quote
Del was saying in an earlier post that she hated the Heston scene.  I say each to his own on this. It was a very manipulative and cheeky tactic. Heston clearly didn't know it was coming. But having the balls to take the Columbine massacre to the head of the NRA and demand answers?? You gotta be very brave or very stupid.

Or incredibly rude and obnoxious Sheyne.

I'm a pro-choice feminist and I wondered how I would feel if MM showed up on my doorstep with a camera and a membership card to Planned Parenthood, then when I welcomed him into my home, proceeded to shove pictures of dead fetuses and a camera into my face and start calling me a murderer.

Can't say that I would think MM was brave or canny or'telling it like it is'.

I thought Heston carried himself with class and dignity considering the attack on him and his beliefs in his own home by someone he welcomed in.  And I don't like Heston either.

My boyfriend and I watched 'Bowling for Columbine' and while we did see some good points, we also saw how edited and manipulative it was.  MM does this quite a bit and I don't like being yanked around by anyone, the media included.

He did this when he won the Academy Awards as well.  He can say whatever he wants up there on the podium, but to try to get the audience to go along with his shouting against Dubya when he knows damn well the media will most certainly point cameras into the crowd to get their reactions - and thus maybe show the world wide audience the actors political views which may be private and not something they want to advertise - is extremely overbearing and obnoxious and controlling.

To each their own, but IMO MM makes liberals look bad.

Offline Sheyne

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #34 on: April 21, 2006, 10:18:40 pm »

I totally understand and respect your point of view, Del.  I'm not saying I like the man one little bit. I certainly wouldn't like to sit down to a meal with him, that's for sure. And I completely agree with what you said about the Academy Awards, I thought he carried on like a jerk.  Bush may not be a popular person in the States with some, he might be downright hated by others, but - IMO - the Oscars is NOT the podium to be making a statement as such. I'm sure I wasn't the only person who was clutching the armrests of my chair in fearful anticipation when Susan Sarandon's name was announced as Best Actress the year she won for Dead Man Walking.  I LOVE Sarandon, I think she's a brilliant actress and an amazing woman, I LOVE and agree with her views on many MANY matters, but i SO did not want her to use her Oscars speech to start anything political. I'm really glad she didn't, cause Mike Moore showed what happens when you use the Oscars podium to make a political statement:- you look like a jerk.  Although, if anybody could have done it with class, I'm betting Susan Sarandon would have stood a chance.. lol..

And like i say, I don't like Mike Moore as a person. And I know he is a very manipulative film maker. But I just really enjoyed Bowling For Columbine, despite the show-pony aspects and cunning editing (i don't use "cunning" in a flattering light there). I know when I'm being jerked around too and I don't like it any more than you do, but the overall message that came through in the movie was very powerful to me. I'm a mum and a teacher as well and lets just say a lot of the issues and themes are VERY close to home for me.  Just my $0.02.  :)

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Offline starboardlight

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #35 on: April 21, 2006, 11:31:49 pm »
I haven't seen that Nipith, but it sounds wonderful.  Kind of along those lines, I would highly recommend The Iron Giant, based on a story by the poet laureate Ted Hughes.  Again a case of animated characters coming to life in such a way as you can't stop thinking about them long after the credits roll.  And a beautiful story about what Christ really taught - about loving all living things equally and unconditionally and without judgment.  Beautiful.

Yes. I love Iron Giant. Beautiful film and I fell in love with the big lug. He came to life in ways that surprised me.

"To do is to be." Socrates. - "To be is to do." Plato. - "Do be do be do" Sinatra.

Offline twistedude

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #36 on: April 23, 2006, 11:35:42 am »
I've seen almost all of them. Would add:A  Soldier's Story, and--what's "wir zuzammen allien mit dir"? (we together alone with you)? Also: Grande Illusion.
MYSTERIOUS SKIN! (it's about two 8-year-olds who are molested by their little league coach, and who then veer off in wildly different directions because of this).

Especially liked: Rabbit Proof Fence, The Elephant Man, The Cryng Game, Gandhi,
The Accused
« Last Edit: April 23, 2006, 11:42:55 am by julie01 »
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Offline Flashframe777

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #37 on: April 23, 2006, 10:29:04 pm »
Della.  I thought you were talking about Jason Alexander all this time>  :-)))
"yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"


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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #38 on: April 24, 2006, 03:08:49 pm »
Films coming to mind that destroyed me, hurt me, scared me, moved me or changed me:

Lilya 4-Ever  (child abandonment, poverty and white sexual slave trade in broken Eastern Europe)

Once Were Warriors (brutal domestic violence, family adrift and identity issues in Maori culture, New Zealand)

A Song for Martin (Danish Alzheimer's drama about a powerful late-life love story between two classical musicians, cruelly interrupted)

Day and Night (scorching 2004 Danish drama of seemingly successful man who chooses to end his life; spends last day driving around reconnecting with the haunted family and friends of his wasted life; yet unreleased on DVD in US)

Breaking the Waves (virgin to whore to martryr to saint -- Von Trier sacrifices Emily Watson in his most poetic, haunting movie)

Ladybird, Ladybird (British barmaid without opportunity loses child after child to welfare office; wrenching)

Antwone Fisher (child abused Navy recruit cries out for love, reconnects with family roots after finding inspiring mentor)

Bread and Roses (undocumented Mexican immigrants exploited in factory, Los Angeles, uprise with far-reaching results)

Intimacy (man and woman meet anonymously once a week for emotional and physical craving, end up over their heads; adulteress Kerry Fox's late scene to spurned hubby Timothy Spall, in a taxi, spellbinds)

Dirt (Nancy Savoca's Showtime-financed, unreleased indie masterpiece details the plight of a proud, undocumented Central American maid living in New York, supporting her family back home; tragedy strikes, lives change irrevocably, human strength ensues) 

Bad Timing: A Sensual Obsession (In Vienna, Art Garfunkel and Theresa Russell engage in Nicolas Roeg's twisted shrink-patient power play that leads to obsession and worse)

Les Diables    http://www.ocean-films.com/lesdiables/  (one of the most powerful contemporary films I have seen, not available here, but if you have a region-free DVD player it is available on Region 2; the story of a brother and sister on the street, he's got severe emotional problems while she is severely autistic, in and out of youth homes and lost to the world)

Seek them out.  NOW. 

« Last Edit: April 24, 2006, 05:10:27 pm by rtprod »

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #39 on: April 24, 2006, 03:54:47 pm »
Quote
And like i say, I don't like Mike Moore as a person. And I know he is a very manipulative film maker.

Jumping into the fray on this piece that Sheyne and Del have stirred up. 

Where in the world does it say that a documentary filmmaker has to be objective?  All film is about manipulating and organizing ideas in a precise fashion to make your point---that goes for narrative or documentary film.  Michael Moore is a poweful provocateur, a brilliant satirist and I believe, a deeply feeling person.  I don't really care about any of those supposed fact-fudgings that the Right (read: wrong) claims he's done in F-9/11, the guy knows how to make a moving and thoughtful film and the majority of the facts speak for themselves.  And as far as the Oscar theatrics go, I'm all for it--when Richard Gere, Susan Sarandon, Tim Robbins and the whole crew can get up there and do the same, I really think Michael Moore, who represents the everyman more than any of them, should be afforded the same luxury--free speech.  Bowling for Columbine was a human and compassionate film, to me.  Ditto F-9/11.  The guys has balls and conviction, and a sense of what is right--at least what is right to me. 

I will follow him, and I'd vote for him too. 

rt

« Last Edit: April 24, 2006, 03:57:46 pm by rtprod »

Offline ednbarby

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #40 on: April 24, 2006, 04:16:45 pm »
Quote
And like i say, I don't like Mike Moore as a person. And I know he is a very manipulative film maker.

Jumping into the fray on this piece that Sheyne and Del have stirred up. 

Where in the world does it say that a documentary filmmaker has to be objective?  All film is about manipulating and organizing ideas in a precise fashion to make your point---that goes for narrative or documentary film.  Michael Moore is a poweful provocateur, a brilliant satirist and I believe, a deeply feeling person.  I don't really care about any of those supposed fact-fudgings that the Right (read: wrong) claims he's done in F-9/11, the guy knows how to make a moving and thoughtful film and the majority of the facts speak for themselves.  And as far as the Oscar theatrics go, I'm all for it--when Richard Gere, Susan Sarandon, Tim Robbins and the whole crew can get up there and do the same, I really think Michael Moore, who represents the everyman more than any of them, should be afforded the same luxury--free speech.  Bowling for Columbine was a human and compassionate film, to me.  Ditto F-9/11.  The guys has balls and conviction, and a sense of what is right--at least what is right to me. 

I will follow him, and I'd vote for him too. 

rt

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #41 on: April 24, 2006, 04:26:42 pm »
Quote
RT, my darling.  Have I told you lately that I love you?

No matter.  I can always hear it one more time. 

And I you, Barb. Thanks for always being around. 

xo

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #42 on: April 24, 2006, 06:53:07 pm »
Hiya rt

Quote
Where in the world does it say that a documentary filmmaker has to be objective?

This was discussed about MM when 'Bowling for Columbine' first came out.  The response?  Good documentary films/filmmakers are objective.

That leaves the rest and includes MM.

Quote
All film is about manipulating and organizing ideas in a precise fashion to make your point---that goes for narrative or documentary film.

Not all of them.

Quote
Michael Moore is a poweful provocateur, a brilliant satirist and I believe, a deeply feeling person.

Yes, he is all those things.

Quote
I don't really care about any of those supposed fact-fudgings that the Right (read: wrong) claims he's done in F-9/11

Well, I did because I was a liberal defending liberals to my right-wing friends and all they were going on about was MM's "lies and propaganda" in the F 9/11 film.  After a while I had to shut up because I didn't have a leg to stand on fact-wise.  And neither did MM after the criticism came down on his head.  After being touted as a 'documentary filmmaker' he eventually had to come out and say F 9/11 wasn't a 'documentary' but a political film.  Had MM been less fast and easy with the facts, perhaps he would have reached the audience that mattered.  The 50+% who voted for Dubya.

Quote
the guy knows how to make a moving and thoughtful film and the majority of the facts speak for themselves.

Well the facts that mattered spoke poorly in F 9-11 and it made the liberals and MM look bad to right-wingers.  Not what we want.

Quote
And as far as the Oscar theatrics go, I'm all for it--when Richard Gere, Susan Sarandon, Tim Robbins and the whole crew can get up there and do the same

I'm with whoever wants to speak politically - so long as they WIN an award.  Robbins/Sarandon and company - I think it was - were one time presenters at the Oscars and chose the podium to speak out on their own political views.  They were soundly lambasted for not 'earning' the right to speak because they hadn't won anything.

Then in other cases, you run into trouble.

Years ago, winner Lynn Redgrave was it?  spoke in favor of the Palestinian people when she won her award.  A few minutes later, a Jewish/Israeli winner came out and spoke against HER political POV.

[shrugs]

Quote
I really think Michael Moore, who represents the everyman more than any of them, should be afforded the same luxury--free speech.

Agree.  It's just very controlling of him to try to get the audience to go along with him.

Quote
Bowling for Columbine was a human and compassionate film, to me.  Ditto F-9/11.  The guys has balls and conviction, and a sense of what is right--at least what is right to me.

Definitely disagree with you on both of these.   MM made some good points - the open-a-bank-account and win-a-free-gun was sheer genius.  The rest of it was very staged - you could really tell - and very manipulative.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2006, 07:14:34 pm by delalluvia »

Offline JennyC

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #43 on: April 24, 2006, 07:11:58 pm »
Oh, I am loving it.

On F-911, I have to agree with Del here.  It’s a very effective movie for the point he wanted to make, but even I, as a liberal, also think that it’s very manipulative and far fetch on some facts he presented.

rt, you need to come back with your rebuttal.  ;)

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #44 on: April 24, 2006, 10:37:17 pm »
Simply don't agree at all that documentaries are supposed to be objective.  It's not PBS.  Most doc filmmakers I have met feel the same way.

And yes, ALL film is organized in a way to make a point--that's the point of making a film, whether the point is to be "fair and balanced" or have an agenda.  The presence of a director and his particular voice is there in every shot, sound, camera move, blade of grass, color, inflection, edit and credit. 

Objectivity in any art is an illusion.

More later.

rt

Offline JennyC

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #45 on: April 24, 2006, 11:42:13 pm »
But rt, shouldn’t we expect more objectivity in Documentary than other films?  I know when I watch a documentary, I come with the expectation that the major objective is to present the facts in an unbiased fashion. I can count on the facts presented and then make my own judgment.   Particularly for Documentary, I don’t want to be intentionally or unintentionally manipulated.  Most of the times I watch documentary as a way to learn history, event, or a specific topic.  If I can not count of the objectivity (I am not talking about absolute objectivity, since nothing is absolute) of Documentary, then what’s the point of Documentary, using the footage of true events to paint a distorted picture?

Offline twistedude

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #46 on: April 25, 2006, 02:16:23 am »
Gee...I LIKE MM, and his films, and I don't insist that documentaries have to be objective--if the man didn't have a point of view, but only a scholarly interest, he'd probably be reading books and writing in scholarly journals. It's funny how W can lie like a rug, but MM can't stretch it a little...

Oh: I can't wait to see "The Dreyfus Affiar," when it gets made...I wanna hear all the people in the gay bar in the Village yell"Play it again, Sam!" when the necking tape runs out...and I wanna see Major League Baseball get kicked in the teeth (that last part is a bit unrealistic, I'm afraid).
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Offline Sheyne

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #47 on: April 25, 2006, 03:21:15 am »
But rt, shouldn’t we expect more objectivity in Documentary than other films?  I know when I watch a documentary, I come with the expectation that the major objective is to present the facts in an unbiased fashion.

Not necessarily true, Jenny.  I think the lines between the different genres of filmmaking have become sufficiently blurred that supposed "traditional" documentaries, especially those that get cinematic release, are a rarity.  I agree that there was a time that going to view a "documentary" carried with it a certain expectation of what you may see.  These days, its different. Especially when you consider a documentary that has box office release.  Its probably not asking too much of the viewer to expect something a bit different.  Certainly a little sensational.. a la Mr Moore.  I mean, there has to be a reason that a documentary makes it to the box office, right?  Traditional docos don't generally make to the Aust box office at least..


I can count on the facts presented and then make my own judgment.   Particularly for Documentary, I don’t want to be intentionally or unintentionally manipulated.  Most of the times I watch documentary as a way to learn history, event, or a specific topic.  If I can not count of the objectivity (I am not talking about absolute objectivity, since nothing is absolute) of Documentary, then what’s the point of Documentary, using the footage of true events to paint a distorted picture?

Its called creating an argument.  And can things really get that distorted with raw footage??  I don't know.. I can't imagine how you could distort a clip of Dubya lying to the American people into something other than what it is...
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Offline starboardlight

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #48 on: April 25, 2006, 03:36:49 am »
But rt, shouldn’t we expect more objectivity in Documentary than other films?  I know when I watch a documentary, I come with the expectation that the major objective is to present the facts in an unbiased fashion. I can count on the facts presented and then make my own judgment.   Particularly for Documentary, I don’t want to be intentionally or unintentionally manipulated.  Most of the times I watch documentary as a way to learn history, event, or a specific topic.  If I can not count of the objectivity (I am not talking about absolute objectivity, since nothing is absolute) of Documentary, then what’s the point of Documentary, using the footage of true events to paint a distorted picture?

I can't agree with that at all. In this day and age where there's just too many agendas, hidden or otherwise, I think we all have to have the exact opposite expectation in everything. Documentary and news in particular, we have to watch out for agendas. Think Fox News. We have to be thinking all the time about whether we're being manipulated or not and why it is happening.

Documentaries can be "news" and try to have an appearance of "objectivity", but they can also be stories about the human experience. I think of Murderball or Spell Bound, where we look at the people competing in events. In those cases, objectivity would just not apply. The point of those documentaries were meant to show us these people's live and spirit. They aim to open us up and make us feel those people's excitement and passion for their respective activities. The emotional connections may be "manipulated" but it tells the story which in the end is what film, documentary or movie, are meant to do.
"To do is to be." Socrates. - "To be is to do." Plato. - "Do be do be do" Sinatra.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #49 on: April 25, 2006, 08:35:32 am »
Quote
I can't agree with that at all. In this day and age where there's just too many agendas, hidden or otherwise, I think we all have to have the exact opposite expectation in everything. Documentary and news in particular, we have to watch out for agendas. Think Fox News. We have to be thinking all the time about whether we're being manipulated or not and why it is happening.

Documentaries can be "news" and try to have an appearance of "objectivity", but they can also be stories about the human experience. I think of Murderball or Spell Bound, where we look at the people competing in events. In those cases, objectivity would just not apply. The point of those documentaries were meant to show us these people's live and spirit. They aim to open us up and make us feel those people's excitement and passion for their respective activities. The emotional connections may be "manipulated" but it tells the story which in the end is what film, documentary or movie, are meant to do.

I'm with Jenny on this.  I'm watching a documentary for a reason.  If I wanted to watch historical footage that tells a story or is manipulated to make a point, then I can watch Forrest Gump.

As Jenny says, I don't expect pure objectivity because it isn't possible, but I do expect a balanced POV.  Documentaries DO make it to the big screen from time to time Sheyne - but usually only to the arthouses, that is why it was so shocking when they hit big because they normally don't.  When you create an argument, you are debating and usually only telling one side of a story.  Your side.  You can start drifting into the grayish side of propaganda.  Presenting one side to 'make an argument'.  That's not what a good informative documentary should do.  I would expect objectivity even in such movies as Murderball, Star.  Not only would I expect a good story of humans overcoming a serious handicap, but I would also want to see that they suffer, their families struggle under the burden of supporting them, the trips to the doctors, that they can be jerks and assholes just like everyone else - just because one is handicapped doesn't instantly turn someone into a saint.  I expect to see that.  I understand the people involved might get offended, but are the documentary filmmakers telling a 'true' story or a fairytale?

I understand from rt that documentaries need to make a point, but that's easily done as well.  Several movies in this thread are fiction, but they're about the human side of the 'enemy' of the U.S. in war.  The suffering of the Japanese civilians in WWII or what have you.  A documentary can make a point about a subject like that without being manipulative (e.g.  That the Japanese civilians were suffering horribly and the U.S. was a big bad monster to hurt them - which is what MM does). 
« Last Edit: April 25, 2006, 09:13:04 am by delalluvia »

Offline starboardlight

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #50 on: April 25, 2006, 01:50:40 pm »
I would expect objectivity even in such movies as Murderball, Star.  Not only would I expect a good story of humans overcoming a serious handicap, but I would also want to see that they suffer, their families struggle under the burden of supporting them, the trips to the doctors, that they can be jerks and assholes just like everyone else - just because one is handicapped doesn't instantly turn someone into a saint.  I expect to see that.  I understand the people involved might get offended, but are the documentary filmmakers telling a 'true' story or a fairytale?

to be fair, that's not the story in the film. it's simply a sports film. it follows two participants in the sports, and focus on their passion for the sport, not their struggle with being paraplegics. Again, there was no objectivity. In order to understand the excitement in the sport, you had to follow their passion. The two guys' biases are clear but they're still infectious. I just don't see it as being wrong to show bias, because it's ultimately our responsibility to be discerning.

Although I also admit that there is a case for holding back judgement. I think of our movie here, and how the film makers held back judgement of either the men or the women's actions. By allowing the audience to make up their own mind, rather than telling us what to believe, it got us to become more involved. That's an approach to story telling that very difficult to do. Most story tellers won't even attempt it.
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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #51 on: April 25, 2006, 02:19:49 pm »
Whoah, let's back up here.

Can someone please tell me where all these supposed fictions lie in F 9-11?  There's only so much "spin" one can put on certain facts that speak loud and clear when they are caught like deer in headlights on camera in an elementary school class. 

I stick to my point that there is a big difference bewteen manipulation and having a point of view, and Michael Moore has a point of view.  The same could be said that Leni Reifenstahl had specific point of view with her classic documentary The Triumph of the Will, which glorified the Nazi party and was propoganda.  It's a classic, and it lies about and glamorizes its subject, but it's one of the best documentaries of all time.  The point--she was Hitler's friend and it was her point of view. 

Quote
This was discussed about MM when 'Bowling for Columbine' first came out.  The response?  Good documentary films/filmmakers are objective.

That leaves the rest and includes MM.

Who discussed this and issued the final verdict?  Any great documentarian knows, from Morris to the Maysles to Moore, that the film has a power to change someone, whether it's exonerrating an innocent man in The Thin Blue Line or following Lila to the Capitol in F-9/11.  We live in political times and the medium is not The New York Times, as one documentarian recently told me, it's a vehicle for argument as much as illumination. 

Quote
Well, I did because I was a liberal defending liberals to my right-wing friends and all they were going on about was MM's "lies and propaganda" in the F 9/11 film.  After a while I had to shut up because I didn't have a leg to stand on fact-wise.  And neither did MM after the criticism came down on his head.  After being touted as a 'documentary filmmaker' he eventually had to come out and say F 9/11 wasn't a 'documentary' but a political film.  Had MM been less fast and easy with the facts, perhaps he would have reached the audience that mattered.  The 50+% who voted for Dubya.

The belief that F-9/11 has been debunked is mystifying, as most I know consider it a great film and the criticism of it a knee-jerk reactionary and obvious scramble on the part of the right to save a very pale face.  I believe it won an Oscar, made 120 million and deeply affected most people in this country who saw it.  It is, on the whole, factually correct though the quibblers who like to take everything down, from A Beautiful Mind to The Hurricane, will find fault and defense. 

My final thought is that this lying, cheating, torturing, murdering, cheap, masquerading, attacking, sexist, homophobic, elitist, separatist, ignorant, warmongering adminstration has pulled enough wool over our eyes for too long and if Michael Moore wants to knit himself a sheepskin blanket, so be it.  It will never amount to what they've done if we want to play point/counterpoint all the way to the next election.  At least he won't be washing children's blood off his hands like they will be. 

Incidentally, Eugene Jarecki's excellent documentary Why We Fight also explores the American war machine and its effects in Iraq, through the eyes of participants on both sides, and...GUESS WHAT?  He reached the same conclusions -- murdered civilians in Iraq, willy nilly bombing, disenfranchised ex-adminstration members. Guilty, Guilty, Guilty. 

Also, check out the doc Control Room....

Everyone can't be playing fast and loose now can they????????? 

rt

 

« Last Edit: April 25, 2006, 04:53:49 pm by rtprod »

Offline MaineWriter

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #52 on: April 25, 2006, 02:37:01 pm »
Whoah, let's back up here.

Quote
My final thought is that this lying, cheating, torturing, murdering, cheap, masquerading, attacking, sexist, homophobic, elitist, separatist, ignorant adminstration has pulled enough wool over our eyes for too long and if Michael Moore wants to knit himself a sheepskin blanket, so be it.  It will never amount to what they've done if we want to play point/counterpoint all the way to the next election.  At least he won't be washing children's blood off his hands like they will be. 


rt


Hmm, Mr. Prod, let me venture a guess here...you did not vote Republican in 2004?  ;)

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rtprod

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #53 on: April 25, 2006, 02:39:42 pm »
Am I now or have I ever been...a Republican?  I have never, and will never.  Ever. 

Yes, let's use the term "family values" shall we, when what we really mean is an attempt to turn civilization back to a dark continent.  While we're at it let's take away women's rights like Roe vs. Wade and stop sending condoms to Africa, instead sending bomb after bomb someplace else.  Bloody f*cking brilliant.    Better still, watch your back for all those Code Red alerts that never materialize.  We should be scared, just not of the shell-game they're dealing us. 

Wonderful -- progressive, isn't it?  Do we feel safe yet?

rt
« Last Edit: April 25, 2006, 03:26:53 pm by rtprod »

Offline MaineWriter

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #54 on: April 25, 2006, 02:45:10 pm »
I have never, and will never.  Ever. 

Yes, let's use the term "family values" shall we, when what we really mean is an attempt to turn civilization back to a dark continent, while we're at it let's take away women's rights like Roe vs. Wade and stop sending condoms to Africa.  Bloody f*cking brilliant.    While we're at it, watch your back for all those Code Red alerts that never materialize.  We should be scared, just not of the shell-game they're dealing us. 

Wonderful -- progressive, isn't it?

rt

Sweetheart,

You won't get an argument from me on any of this--believe me.

L
xo
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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #55 on: April 25, 2006, 02:52:55 pm »
Okay guys, I'm preparing for the onslaught. 

Lemme have it.    :o

rt 

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #56 on: April 25, 2006, 02:58:45 pm »
Hiya rtprod

Whoah, let's back up here.

Can someone please tell me where all these supposed fictions lie in F 9-11?  There's only so much "spin" one can put on certain facts that speak loud and clear when they are caught like deer in headlights on camera in an elementary school class.

This is what I was sent:

http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm
 
Quote
I stick to my point that there is a big difference bewteen manipulation and having a point of view, and Michael Moore has a point of view.  The same could be said that Leni Reifenstahl had specific point of view with her classic documentary The Triumph of the Will, which glorified the Nazi party and was propoganda.  It's a classic, and it lies about and glamorizes its subject, but it's one of the best documentaries of all time.  The point--she was Hitler's friend and it was her point of view.

In film, having a POV and manipulation is the same thing, IMO.  In order to show your POV, you necessarily have to leave out many other PsOV in order to focus on your own.  It's still manipulation.   

This was discussed about MM when 'Bowling for Columbine' first came out.  The response?  Good documentary films/filmmakers are objective.

That leaves the rest and includes MM.


Quote
Who discussed this and issued the final verdict?

There is no final verdict.  Merely opinion. 

Quote
The belief that F-9/11 has been debunked is mystifying,

See the above link.

Quote
as most I know consider it a great film and the criticism of it a knee-jerk reactionary and obvious scramble on the part of the right to save a very pale face.

Mmm, guess it depends on where you live, rt.  Here in Texas, MM is a joke.  His movie was ripped to shreds and he was forced to backpedal on his facts.  I DO live in Dubya-land.  >:(

Quote
I believe it won an Oscar

Which meant something important to me - before BBM lost Best Picture and we - as Jane Q. Public - found out exactly who and what made up the 'Academy'.

Quote
made 120 million and deeply affected most people in this country who saw it.  It is, on the whole, factually correct though the quibblers who like to take everything down, from A Beautiful Mind to The Hurricane, will find fault and defense.

It deeply affected many people - both positively and negatively.  Where I'm standing, it didn't help the liberal cause at all.  .

Quote
Everyone can't be playing fast and loose now can they?????????

Unless we have someone making a documentary/news report who has a reputation of being impartial and objective, then I'd answer - sadly - yes they can.

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #57 on: April 25, 2006, 03:11:36 pm »
Don't bunker down too far, rt. I think yr singing to the choir, and a heavenly music it makes.

As for defending MM to the rabid republicans, don't bother. They're not rational beings.

The definition of a documentary is, as I recall from film class, having as its subject matter something that actually happened or is happening. There is no way a documentary or any work that humans produce can be objective. You have to point your camera somewhere. You can't point it at everything. The only way something can even approach objectivity is if you tell one side of a story, then another side of the story, then another, then another. This was the subject of the film Rashomon.
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Offline JCinNYC2006

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #58 on: April 25, 2006, 03:27:16 pm »
I love Michael Moore's work because it generates debate and discussion.  Yeah, it can also motivate a lot of anger and can be manipulative in the sense that he has some foregone conclusions to make.  But whether you agree with them or not is still up to the viewer.

I don't take everything he says as 100% accurate, and I will read critiques of his movies.  Skimming through the link posted (the Dave Kopel one), many of the rebuttals boil down to "both sides do this, not just Bush", although I don't think Moore is so fond of Democrats either.  I did idealize him more before F911, but after reading some criticisms of Bowling For Columbine, I readjusted my expectations and try to be more discerning.

I don't want to be manipulated by Moore and I definitely don't want to be manipulated by Bush, but ultimately the lies told by this administration affect me much more in my day to day life.  Anyone who is interested in at least opening people's eyes gets a listen from me.  I especially love the George Orwell quote he uses at the end of F911: "The war is not meant to be won—it is meant to be continuous."  I can't wait for his next movie.

Juan
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Offline JennyC

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #59 on: April 25, 2006, 04:02:56 pm »
Okay guys, I'm preparing for the onslaught. 

Lemme have it.    :o

rt 

Why would you?  No argument from me  ;D , and I suspect that a lot of people here feel the same at least on some of your points (except the objectivity on Documentary that is ;) )  You just said what many felt.   No one is going to slaughter you for speaking your mind. 

Isn't this what makes this group of people so wonderful?  People here can engage in discussion with respect and maturity given our differences.  Sometime the discussion can be heated, but worst to worst, we can always fall back on at least one common ground we have.  ;)


I do want to elaborate on why I think objectivity on documentary is important, it involves a documentary on Kennedy’s assassination.  I will have to come back on that later.

p.s.  This is a great discussion, but are we hijacking the initial thread for "Mandatory Viewing"?  I would recommend moving the discussion elsewhere, but I know the moment we move, the momentum will die.

Offline MaineWriter

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #60 on: April 25, 2006, 04:10:03 pm »

Quote
p.s.  This is a great discussion, but are we hijacking the initial thread for "Mandatory Viewing"?  I would recommend moving the discussion elsewhere, but I know the moment we move, the momentum will die.


And for precisely that reason, let's not move. All the interesting threads eventually do go sort of OT, in that they wind around, talk about this or that, change, morph...hmm, in real life, I think it might be called a conversation.

« Last Edit: April 25, 2006, 04:40:32 pm by lnicoll »
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Offline ednbarby

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #61 on: April 25, 2006, 04:16:46 pm »
As the initiator of this thread, I would just like to submit that I see no reason to move it.  I don't feel that my thread has been hijacked at all - we are discussing films that we think should be mandatory viewing - some (I, for one) think MMs films should be part of that list, some do not.  And I agree - the discussion is way too interesting to kill the momentum now by moving it, so I respectfully submit to the Mods that they please do not.

Carry on!

(P.S. It most likely goes without saying, but I agree 100% with everything RT has posted here.  Everyone is bringing up thought-provoking points, though.)
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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #62 on: April 25, 2006, 04:24:09 pm »
Quote
It most likely goes without saying, but I agree 100% with everything RT has posted here.

Barb,

You know,  you and I really should get together sometime....   ;D

rt

Offline ednbarby

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #63 on: April 25, 2006, 04:55:03 pm »
Quote
It most likely goes without saying, but I agree 100% with everything RT has posted here.

Barb,

You know,  you and I really should get together sometime....   ;D

Absolutely.  I'll bring the Old Rose if you bring the BetterMost and spuds.  Will you be peeling, or shall I? 
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Offline Sheyne

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #64 on: April 25, 2006, 04:57:36 pm »

Hell I'll peel while you BOTH get naked! lol ;D

I think everybody has raised thought-provoking discussion. I don't really think our media here in Oz want us Aussies to like George Bush. Confusing really, because our current prime minister can't kiss his a** enough.
Chut up!

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #65 on: April 25, 2006, 05:08:30 pm »
I'll peel, I'm shy...   :-\

rt

Offline MaineWriter

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #66 on: April 25, 2006, 05:12:08 pm »
I'll peel, I'm shy...   :-\

rt

HA! If you're shy, I'm catatonic!
LOL
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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #67 on: April 25, 2006, 05:39:24 pm »
Mandatory viewing is the new swooning!
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Offline JennyC

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #68 on: April 25, 2006, 05:45:42 pm »
Mandatory viewing is the new swooning!

Ditto,  I am glad that I finally can follow it this time.  ;D

Carry on... 

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #69 on: April 25, 2006, 05:58:03 pm »
Okay... I just read through the thread and I thought I'd add a few things.

Firstly, Sheyne, I also liked Dead Poet's Society. A bit cheasy at times, but thoughtful and touching most of the time.

And, I have to agree with RT and Sheyne (as well as Leslie, Barb, Juan and Julie too I believe) regarding Michael M. I really liked both Bowling and F-911. Yes, he's dramatic and sometimes over the top, but isn't that the point? He clearly feels strongly about both topics and thus explores them passionately in both movies. If the movies had just been him being calm and quiet, sitting on his couch discussing his POV unenthusiastically into the camera, would that have been better? Certainly not, in my opinion. And he doesn't just put his own thoughts, emotions and reactions into the films, he also includes statistics, actual footage..etc. I don't think they or he make liberals look bad - I think they make them look passionate and driven. BTW, your posts are so insightful, RT, I love them. It's certainly not hard to tell you're a writer.

Lastly, you have all brought up some great films. One that I think people should see: The Sea Inside (Mar adentro): The real-life story of Spaniard Ramon Sampedro, who fought a 30 year campaign in favor of euthanasia and his own right to die. Beautifully done, just beautiful. And so moving.

Offline JennyC

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #70 on: April 25, 2006, 07:35:46 pm »
Let me make sure that we all agree that critiquing MM’s way to deliver the argument he made in F-911, does not mean to critique the point itself.  If you are anti war, you secretly hope that everything in the movie is true or at least the conclusion is a logical one based on facts presented.  If you are conservative or pro-war (right or left does not guarantee your stand on this issue), you watch that movie as a joke.  In the end, I don’t know anyone’s position has been changed on the issue, at least not the people that I know of.  People who feel strongly on this issue on both sides can take the movie however they want.  Me and my very devoted democrat friend used to joke about how MM went over the board trying to frame Bush as this bad guy with his dirty secrets, and it almost made people feel sympathetic for him (Bush) since he is the underdog in the movie and MM took every chance he got to beat him in the head. 

To me, whether it’s Democrat or Republican, they don’t change that much on their foreign policy.  Whether it’s Mideast, East Asia, Africa, or South America, you name it, pretty much the entire world.  On a few events they may differ, but in the whole scheme of things, sorry to say that they stay on the same course once they are in the office.

I will say though, when one man with strong conviction believes so firmly what he/she believes, believes that whatever he/she does is for the greater good, therefore being blind sighted by his/her own conviction, it’s a very dangerous thing.  Particularly if that person is in a powerful position to make decisions that could impact a lot of people’s life.  It does not necessarily take an evil person to cause horrible damage.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2006, 02:47:35 pm by JennyC »

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #71 on: April 25, 2006, 07:56:18 pm »
Quote
BTW, your posts are so insightful, RT, I love them. It's certainly not hard to tell you're a writer.

 :-*

Quote
Lastly, you have all brought up some great films. One that I think people should see: The Sea Inside (Mar adentro): The real-life story of Spaniard Ramon Sampedro, who fought a 30 year campaign in favor of euthanasia and his own right to die. Beautifully done, just beautiful. And so moving.

Agree -- the shot of his nephew running after the ambulance at the end of the film tore me up.  The title -- The Sea Inside -- is so eloquent, layered and deep.  It's a really special film. 

rt
« Last Edit: April 25, 2006, 07:58:47 pm by rtprod »

Offline JennyC

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #72 on: April 25, 2006, 08:01:16 pm »
I don't think they or he make liberals look bad - I think they make them look passionate and driven.

Politics is such a delicate act; it’s hard to tell at what time you tip the balance from being passionate and driven to over your head.  I look back on the 2004 Democrat Primary how Howard Dean lost the primary because of his famous passionate speech.  I always like the guy, feel that he had the guts to voice his dissent on the war at the time when everyone who disagreed with the administration had been labeled as unpatriotic (People should be sent to boot camp to watch Good Night and Good Luck  :) ). But at the same time, I do feel he acts before he thinks through things from time to time.  I don’t know if he can be a leader that you can count on.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #73 on: April 25, 2006, 08:22:31 pm »
Hi Mandy,

Yes, he's dramatic and sometimes over the top, but isn't that the point? He clearly feels strongly about both topics and thus explores them passionately in both movies.

Is it the point of a documentary?  To be over the top and biased?

Quote
If the movies had just been him being calm and quiet, sitting on his couch discussing his POV unenthusiastically into the camera, would that have been better? Certainly not, in my opinion.

That's not what a good documentary filmmaker would show you.  I've watched a lot of 9/11 documentaries.  I'm not expecting to be 'entertained'.  I'm expecting to get good information.  That's not really what you get with MM.

Quote
I don't think they or he make liberals look bad - I think they make them look passionate and driven.

That's not necessarily a good thing.  I call and people have called Dubya 'passionate and driven'.  As Jenny pointed out so well, people who are passionate and driven can also be stuck in a rut and over emotional and ultimately dangerous if their passions and drives conflict with others.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #74 on: April 25, 2006, 08:27:59 pm »

I don't take everything he says as 100% accurate, and I will read critiques of his movies.  Skimming through the link posted (the Dave Kopel one), many of the rebuttals boil down to "both sides do this, not just Bush", although I don't think Moore is so fond of Democrats either.  I did idealize him more before F911, but after reading some criticisms of Bowling For Columbine, I readjusted my expectations and try to be more discerning.

Exactly.  The rebuttal was about MM's 'pot calling the kettle black', why wasn't MM making movies during the Clinton administration about Clinton when the same things were going on, etc..  Sadly, not everyone is as analytical as you are Juan.  People like to take things at face value.

I've gotten to the point where I'm a skeptic about anything that comes out of anyone's mouth until I know better.

It's a shame because you used to be able to trust your news agencies.  Or at least you thought you could. :-\

Offline JennyC

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #75 on: June 27, 2006, 03:40:30 pm »
I am just bumping some old threads for the new members here.  Hope you enjoy reading it.

Offline Aloysius J. Gleek

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #76 on: June 29, 2006, 12:44:48 am »
And bumping with an old (rusty) member--

Something I think many will really feel 'Mandatory Viewing' (and something I think, Barb, you will love):

IMDb: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119248/

'Steam' (1998), directed by Ferzan Ozpetek
(also known as)
'Steam: The Turkish Bath' (1998)
'Hamam' (1997)
Bagno turco, Il (Italy)
Hamam: The Turkish Bath (UK)
Hamam: el baño turco (Spain)

Actors: Alessandro Gassman (gorgeous), Francesca d'Aloja, Carlo Cecchi, Halil Ergün, Serif
Sezer, Mehmet Gunsur (more gorgeousness), and more--

I've added this User Comments:

4 out of 4 people found the following comment useful:-
Find your place in life -- mesmerizing!, 3 July 2002

Author: Tim Evanson ([email protected]) from Washington, D.C.


An official selection of the Cannes Film Festival, "Steam (The Hamam)" is a mesmerizing, astounding film that grips you almost from the beginning. Francesco and Marta are a feuding, materialistic, adulterous married couple. But when Francesco inherits a Turkish bath from an aunt he barely knew, he heads to Instanbul to sell it. There, he is seduced away from his high-tech, wealth-obsessed life by the slow, human pace of life led by the people of the ghetto. Francesco finds his bitterness salved by the love of the family who manages the hamam, his heart stolen by the family's hunky son Mehmet, and his too-fast life slowed by the need to rebuild and maintain the hamam. And then Marta arrives, wondering what the heck has gotten into her husband... The film even has a surprise ending. The musical soundtrack was a major hit on the dance circuit. And the film itself became notorious when the Turkish government refused to nominate it for a best foreign film Oscar because of its homosexual content. (The controversy led the Academy to change the way foreign films are nominated.) "Steam" is MUST-see, ranking right up there with "Muriel's Wedding" and "Four Weddings and a Funeral."

John G again: my own words are inadequate because I am still unable to write very well, but I think you will love this movie: sad, beautiful, shocking; I loved this movie more than I can say--

xxxx
John
« Last Edit: June 29, 2006, 12:49:48 am by jmmgallagher »
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Offline ednbarby

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #77 on: June 29, 2006, 02:21:46 pm »
[bumpin' right back atcha]

John, my love, I've seen this movie.  And you're right.  I did love it!  And I agree that it falls in the "Mandatory Viewing" category as well.

How goes it with you these days, by the way?  I think of you often and hope you're doing well.   :-*
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Offline starboardlight

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #78 on: June 29, 2006, 02:43:33 pm »
And bumping with an old (rusty) member--

Something I think many will really feel 'Mandatory Viewing' (and something I think, Barb, you will love):

IMDb: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119248/

'Steam' (1998), directed by Ferzan Ozpetek
(also known as)
'Steam: The Turkish Bath' (1998)
'Hamam' (1997)
Bagno turco, Il (Italy)
Hamam: The Turkish Bath (UK)
Hamam: el baño turco (Spain)

Actors: Alessandro Gassman (gorgeous), Francesca d'Aloja, Carlo Cecchi, Halil Ergün, Serif
Sezer, Mehmet Gunsur (more gorgeousness), and more--

I've added this User Comments:

4 out of 4 people found the following comment useful:-
Find your place in life -- mesmerizing!, 3 July 2002

Author: Tim Evanson ([email protected]) from Washington, D.C.


An official selection of the Cannes Film Festival, "Steam (The Hamam)" is a mesmerizing, astounding film that grips you almost from the beginning. Francesco and Marta are a feuding, materialistic, adulterous married couple. But when Francesco inherits a Turkish bath from an aunt he barely knew, he heads to Instanbul to sell it. There, he is seduced away from his high-tech, wealth-obsessed life by the slow, human pace of life led by the people of the ghetto. Francesco finds his bitterness salved by the love of the family who manages the hamam, his heart stolen by the family's hunky son Mehmet, and his too-fast life slowed by the need to rebuild and maintain the hamam. And then Marta arrives, wondering what the heck has gotten into her husband... The film even has a surprise ending. The musical soundtrack was a major hit on the dance circuit. And the film itself became notorious when the Turkish government refused to nominate it for a best foreign film Oscar because of its homosexual content. (The controversy led the Academy to change the way foreign films are nominated.) "Steam" is MUST-see, ranking right up there with "Muriel's Wedding" and "Four Weddings and a Funeral."

John G again: my own words are inadequate because I am still unable to write very well, but I think you will love this movie: sad, beautiful, shocking; I loved this movie more than I can say--

xxxx
John


I really love that movie. It depicts such a romantic view of Istanbul and puts the city on my list of places to visit. And the soundtrack CD is beautiful, a must own for people who love world music. Despite being a hit in the dance world, it's not dance music. It's a very old world sound but very sexy and aching rhythm.
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Offline silkncense

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #79 on: July 01, 2006, 11:04:15 am »
I'd been wondering if I should join a movie service such as Netflix, questioning if I knew enough great films to make a large enough que.  Well, after reading all these suggestions I've found many I have not seen.  I trust I will find many more movies to love.
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Offline southendmd

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Re: Mandatory Viewing
« Reply #80 on: March 13, 2014, 01:19:37 pm »
bumping for Throwback Thursday!