Would it have worked? Merged with "Would a SWEET LIFE ever have been possible?"

[serious crayons]

I'm neither a racial minority nor gay, so I hope nobody minds my saying this, but I can think of another reason being gay might be harder. Most racial minorities grow up surrounded by people who are like them. So they can feel quote-unquote "normal" from the get-go, and they can learn from watching their parents and other elders cope with prejudice and discrimination. Most gay people don't grow up surrounded by a lot of other gay people, at least not early on, so they have to figure things out for themselves. 

[JT]

I'm neither a racial minority nor gay, so I hope nobody minds my saying this, but I can think of another reason being gay might be harder. Most racial minorities grow up surrounded by people who are like them. So they can feel quote-unquote "normal" from the get-go, and they can learn from watching their parents and other elders cope with prejudice and discrimination. Most gay people don't grow up surrounded by a lot of other gay people, at least not early on, so they have to figure things out for themselves. 

Glad you said it.  That's a very good point.  I had to blindly find my own way through.  It was a journey that I took alone.  I'm out to only one person in my entire state even now.  I knew I was different when I was six but I didn't understand myself until my mid teens.  Used to think I'm a freak.  It was in my early 20s was when I see another gay person and realize I'm not the only one.  That's when I start learning what homosexuality was and it was nerve-recking to go into the library to find a book on this subject.  Had to hide in a dark corner to read it and was too afraid to check-out that book.  Enough about my personal experience.

Back to the main question.  Would that sweet life ever been possible?  IMO That all depends on Ennis and the location.  They need a location that is isolated enough to ease Ennis' mind but I think Ennis himself is the bigger issue.  He would be the one that decide on that question.  Frankly, if Ennis is more like Jack, then I think it would be possible to have that sweet life.  They probably have to pretend that they're brothers or cousins or somethin'.  But the way Ennis is, it's not very likely. 

[Katie77]

Glad you said it.  That's a very good point.  I had to blindly find my own way through.  It was a journey that I took alone.  I'm out to only one person in my entire state even now.  I knew I was different when I was six but I didn't understand myself until my mid teens.  Used to think I'm a freak.  It was in my early 20s was when I see another gay person and realize I'm not the only one.  That's when I start learning what homosexuality was and it was nerve-recking to go into the library to find a book on this subject.  Had to hide in a dark corner to read it and was too afraid to check-out that book.  Enough about my personal experience.

Reading such stories as this, has brought me to another question (as a straight person very inquisitive about how the "gay" mind works)

While as not to underestimate the awfulness of living a life "in the closet", I am curious to know whether the choice to live in that closet is because, (1) you fear non-acceptance from your family and friends, and couldnt accept it if they "disowned" you ?....or (2) you fear retribution attacks on you physically?....or (3) it is easier not to have to open up about yourself, and feel more comfortable in a secret type existence ?

Is not being accepted, worse than living a life in the closet?

Sorry if I sound too blunt, I dont mean to be, and it hurts me deeply that some people cannot live the life they were born to live, I am just curious?

[dly64]

I know we are going seriously OT here, but I had to put in my two cents (for what it's worth ...  ).

I have friends who are minorities and who are gay. I am neither, so I can only relay what my friends have said to me. Being an African American is not easy, especially depending on where you live. There is still a lot of hatred. One of my friends refuses to drive to certain areas in southern Indiana because it is a hot bed of racial hatred. You are right, being gay is not visible. Depending on where you are, however, there are advantages to that. African Americans cannot hide their skin color. I also have a friend who is Vietnamese. She does not experience the same type of hatred that my African American friends or my Hispanic friends do. And being Caucasian, I forget how uncomfortable it must be at times when one of my friends is the only minority in the room! 

There is an incredibly provocative song called “Strange Fruit” sung by Billie Holiday.  Here are the lyrics:


Written By: Lewis Allen

Southern trees bear strange fruit,
Blood on the leaves and blood at the root,
Black bodies swinging in the southern breeze,
Strange fruit hanging from the poplar trees.

Pastoral scene of the gallant south,
The bulging eyes and the twisted mouth,
Scent of magnolias, sweet and fresh,
Then the sudden smell of burning flesh.

Here is fruit for the crows to pluck,
For the rain to gather, for the wind to suck,
For the sun to rot, for the trees to drop,
Here is a strange and bitter crop.


The song is about lynching in America. I am attaching some links about this song and you can hear a clip or download it. It is one of the most haunting songs you will ever hear. Yes, the song was written before the Civil Rights movement. Sadly, it still pertains today. I encourage you to listen to it and read about it. Here are two links:

http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/strangefruit/film.html

http://www.theconnection.org/shows/2000/05/20000526_b_main.asp

I bring this up because it is important not to differentiate between what is worse in American …. prejudice based on race or sexual orientation. Hatred is hatred, period. Depending on where you are, it is dangerous to be a Jew, an African American, a Hispanic, a Muslim, or a Gay American. The reality is that we have a long way to go.

Okay … I’ll get off of my soapbox. Thanks for indulging me. I will now shut up! 

[JT]

Reading such stories as this, has brought me to another question (as a straight person very inquisitive about how the "gay" mind works)

While as not to underestimate the awfulness of living a life "in the closet", I am curious to know whether the choice to live in that closet is because, (1) you fear non-acceptance from your family and friends, and couldnt accept it if they "disowned" you ?....or (2) you fear retribution attacks on you physically?....or (3) it is easier not to have to open up about yourself, and feel more comfortable in a secret type existence ?

Is not being accepted, worse than living a life in the closet?

Sorry if I sound too blunt, I dont mean to be, and it hurts me deeply that some people cannot live the life they were born to live, I am just curious?

It's both.  1)  You learn through your culture that certain people are not desiralbe and are consider a "flaw" or "sin" of society.  I've heard of many stories of people who no longer communicate with their parents and relatives after coming out.  For me, it's also the feeling of shamefullness and fear of hurting my folks.  In my culture having face is a big deal and I know I'll shame them.  I guess hurting my folks is my biggeat fear.  2)  Now we all heard of gay-bashing in the news.  I've known personally people who're bash after coming out.  So yes, you risk physical hurm also.

I would like to reflect a little on #3.  It all has to do with being alive vs. being free and happy.  Yes, if I come out, I'll run into many risks from something as minor as name-calling to getting killed and being disowned, but I can be who I really am.  Living in the closet, on the other hand, I'll be somewhat safe(from gay-bashing), but I'll feel worthless like a piece of sh*t.  When I see straight couples doing something as simple as holding hands, I'm both happy for them and envious at the same time.  I couldn't bare to look at myself in the mirror sometimes and it gets bad if you have to ask yourself if this life worth living.  Isn't it pathethic that I had to ask my sister(the only person who knows) to but this wonderful movie for me?  I really feel like Ennis and can understand him.

[JT]

I know we are going seriously OT here, but I had to put in my two cents (for what it's worth ...  ).

I have friends who are minorities and who are gay. I am neither, so I can only relay what my friends have said to me. Being an African American is not easy, especially depending on where you live. There is still a lot of hatred. One of my friends refuses to drive to certain areas in southern Indiana because it is a hot bed of racial hatred. You are right, being gay is not visible. Depending on where you are, however, there are advantages to that. African Americans cannot hide their skin color. I also have a friend who is Vietnamese. She does not experience the same type of hatred that my African American friends or my Hispanic friends do. And being Caucasian, I forget how uncomfortable it must be at times when one of my friends is the only minority in the room! 

There is an incredibly provocative song called “Strange Fruit” sung by Billie Holiday.  Here are the lyrics:


Written By: Lewis Allen

Southern trees bear strange fruit,
Blood on the leaves and blood at the root,
Black bodies swinging in the southern breeze,
Strange fruit hanging from the poplar trees.

Pastoral scene of the gallant south,
The bulging eyes and the twisted mouth,
Scent of magnolias, sweet and fresh,
Then the sudden smell of burning flesh.

Here is fruit for the crows to pluck,
For the rain to gather, for the wind to suck,
For the sun to rot, for the trees to drop,
Here is a strange and bitter crop.


The song is about lynching in America. I am attaching some links about this song and you can hear a clip or download it. It is one of the most haunting songs you will ever hear. Yes, the song was written before the Civil Rights movement. Sadly, it still pertains today. I encourage you to listen to it and read about it. Here are two links:

http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/strangefruit/film.html

http://www.theconnection.org/shows/2000/05/20000526_b_main.asp

I bring this up because it is important not to differentiate between what is worse in American …. prejudice based on race or sexual orientation. Hatred is hatred, period. Depending on where you are, it is dangerous to be a Jew, an African American, a Hispanic, a Muslim, or a Gay American. The reality is that we have a long way to go.

Okay … I’ll get off of my soapbox. Thanks for indulging me. I will now shut up! 

That's a very sad song, Diane.  It can be about anyone who has been beaten to death.  I keep seeing the image of Jack when I read those lines.  Yes, hate is hate no matter who its from and who it directs to.  We all suffer. 

Now could we all get back to the topic?

[Bucky]

I live in a rural area and everyone knows everyone else.  If I lived in a city I would more likely have the courage to come out.  Right now though my life is generally peaceful and I don't have the burden of dealing with a relationship as I have been "burned" badly in the past.  I am not so much afraid of getting burned right now as I just like the peace that I am having.  However when you are 43 years old it is almost a safe bet that there will be a future relationship.

 I just got over being burned a long time ago in a healing process since I saw Brokeback Mountain.  I got in touch with the one who hurt me emotionally twenty two years ago.  It was nice to catch up on his life and when he wanted to rekindle our relationship I said no.  I put a lot of thought into it and feel that I made the right decision and for the right reasons.  This time there is no bitterness like there was the first time.  I suppose that there might be a right person for me out there somewhere but I am not looking for it right now.  I just have a certain comfort that I am not having to deal with anyone but myself right now.  Maybe when I feel completely right about myself I will be ready for another relationship but right now that is not my first priority. 

[JT]

I live in a rural area and everyone knows everyone else.  If I lived in a city I would more likely have the courage to come out.  Right now though my life is generally peaceful and I don't have the burden of dealing with a relationship as I have been "burned" badly in the past.  I am not so much afraid of getting burned right now as I just like the peace that I am having.  However when you are 43 years old it is almost a safe bet that there will be a future relationship.

 I just got over being burned a long time ago in a healing process since I saw Brokeback Mountain.  I got in touch with the one who hurt me emotionally twenty two years ago.  It was nice to catch up on his life and when he wanted to rekindle our relationship I said no.  I put a lot of thought into it and feel that I made the right decision and for the right reasons.  This time there is no bitterness like there was the first time.  I suppose that there might be a right person for me out there somewhere but I am not looking for it right now.  I just have a certain comfort that I am not having to deal with anyone but myself right now.  Maybe when I feel completely right about myself I will be ready for another relationship but right now that is not my first priority. 

Yeah, how comfortable a person is depends one where he or she lives also.  I do belief that everyone can have that sweet life.  It all depend on how much we want it, how comfortable we feel about it, and our personal meaning of what that sweet life is.  I'm glad you're holding strong Bucky.  Brokeback seems to hurt us but yet heal us also.  It did for me.