Author Topic: Was Ennis foolin when he threatened Jack?  (Read 12816 times)

Offline nakymaton

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Re: Was Ennis foolin when he threatened Jack?
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2006, 10:44:22 pm »
About Ennis's violent side: yes, it's there. But I think that, as Ennis ages, he becomes less likely to hurt other people and more likely to get hurt himself. He punches Jack at the end of the summer; he beats up the bikers at the 4th of July (and scares Alma in the process). But then at Thanksgiving, although he threatens Alma, he doesn't hit her; instead, he storms out and gets himself beaten up. And he tries to hit Jack again, when Jack hugs him at the end of the lake scene -- and that's such a great bookend to The Punch -- and this time, Ennis doesn't manage to hit Jack. Either Jack's holding on too hard, or Ennis just doesn't really have it in him to hit Jack, whatever Ennis says, but there's an attempted punch there that fails.
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Offline juneaux

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Re: Was Ennis foolin when he threatened Jack?
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2006, 12:35:35 am »
Although Ennis was hurt at the thought of Jack with another man and the primary way Ennis dealt with his emtions was, for the most part, through physical violence I do not believe he would have harmed Jack.  In fact after he collapses on the ground doesn't he mumble "I can't take this anymore" or something to that effect?  Jack didn't think Ennis "wanted" a life together "bad enough" when Ennis' recation showed him otherwise. 
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Was Ennis foolin when he threatened Jack?
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2006, 01:08:17 am »
I definitely think it was something he just said in the heat of the moment, because Jack did admit to it, and I didn't see Ennis running for his hunting rifle...

LOL! Good point, FuzzyChanny!

This too, nakymaton:

I think that the last time Ennis hit Jack, Ennis spent four long years regretting it.

Ennis may have a short fuse, but I don't think he would be able to hurt Jack again without remembering how much he hurt himself as well, the last time.

This is one of my least favorite lines in the movie, not just because it puts Ennis in a bad light, but because it seems too over the top. Not only do I not believe Ennis would kill (or even hurt) Jack, if I hadn't heard him with my own ears I wouldn't believe he could threaten to, either.

I think one of the functions of the 4th of July scene is to contrast it with the fight that broke out when they were leaving the mountain. On the mountain, they were fake-fighting. For most of it they weren't really trying to hurt each other, even if Ennis did wind up impulsively punching Jack. On the other hand, he WAS trying to hurt the bikers, or at least scare them off, and that fight looked pretty different.



vkm91941

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Re: Was Ennis foolin when he threatened Jack?
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2006, 01:15:14 am »
Victoria had a wonderful post 1000 years ago (over on TOB or the old CT) where she analyzed the conversation as a lover's quarrel and said, "this is how lovers fight." Understood exactly why each one said just what they did when they did. It made perfect sense to me. Vic, you reading this? Any chance you have that post saved somewhere on your hard drive or wherever??

Leslie

I didn't save it, it was a long time ago before we ever knew we had to save these things.  But the gist of it was.  

This is a lovers quarrel, it is not the end of the relationship, evidenced by Ennis sending the post card to Jack asking if November was still OK ( the one that came back marked deceased)..  I do NOT believe that Jack ever took up seriously with Randall.  There is a certain kind of fight between lovers that is a relationship adjustment, where things that have been simmering come to the surface, as Annie Proulx says in the story "here it was late and unexpected"  this was nothing new between them.  They just both pushed a couple of each others buttons and spouted off.   When lovers fight, they quarrel,  and then reconcile, each time there is compromise, each time you grow closer..if the love is true.

Offline Ellemeno

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Re: Was Ennis foolin when he threatened Jack?
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2006, 03:29:18 am »
The only thing I can add to what's been said is that it always seems to me that part of what Ennis is doing there is making clear that even now, he is aligning himself with the homophobes and not with the homosexual.  It's what he got taught - when you find out that someone has had sex with a man, you kill them.  He could somehow torque it inside of himself that he himself ain't queer, so that doesn't count.  But if Jack has sex with another man, well that is queer, and thus a killable offense.

It's almost like he says it out loud pro forma, for any homophobes who might be listening, just like when on the mountain he leans back to watch Jack ride away, and then quickly catches himself and LOOKS AROUND, to see if anyone else has noticed that he was watching another guy.  He carries his homophobic lynch mob with him everywhere he goes, even way out in the middle of nowhere.


vkm91941

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Re: Was Ennis foolin when he threatened Jack?
« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2006, 03:31:50 am »
The only thing I can add to what's been said is that it always seems to me that part of what Ennis is doing there is making clear that even now, he is aligning himself with the homophobes and not with the homosexual.  It's what he got taught - when you find out that someone has had sex with a man, you kill them.  He could somehow torque it inside of himself that he himself ain't queer, so that doesn't count.  But if Jack has sex with another man, well that is queer, and thus a killable offense.

It's almost like he says it out loud pro forma, for any homophobes who might be listening, just like when on the mountain he leans back to watch Jack ride away, and then quickly catches himself and LOOKS AROUND, to see if anyone else has noticed that he was watching another guy.  He carries his homophobic lynch mob with him everywhere he goes, even way out in the middle of nowhere.



Excellent insights Clarissa I especially like that last line..it is so descriptive of the place Ennis inhabits inside his own head.

Offline JCinNYC2006

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Re: Was Ennis foolin when he threatened Jack?
« Reply #16 on: April 27, 2006, 09:27:15 am »
The only thing I can add to what's been said is that it always seems to me that part of what Ennis is doing there is making clear that even now, he is aligning himself with the homophobes and not with the homosexual.  It's what he got taught - when you find out that someone has had sex with a man, you kill them.  He could somehow torque it inside of himself that he himself ain't queer, so that doesn't count.  But if Jack has sex with another man, well that is queer, and thus a killable offense.

It's almost like he says it out loud pro forma, for any homophobes who might be listening, just like when on the mountain he leans back to watch Jack ride away, and then quickly catches himself and LOOKS AROUND, to see if anyone else has noticed that he was watching another guy.  He carries his homophobic lynch mob with him everywhere he goes, even way out in the middle of nowhere.


Yeah, excellent points.  I think Ennis has very mixed feelings about Jack and about his sexuality.  It's like with the line, 'It's cuz of you I'm like this', which I'm sure has also been dissected in some thread, I think Ennis has some anger and resentment towards Jack for 'bringing out' his feelings for him, and in a way, putting them both in danger (in Ennis' mind).  Even if he would never have followed through, his threatening Jack for being with another guy, which to him would be a betrayal, is not unlike how heterosexual men threaten their wives if they were to leave them.  And sadly, many women do get killed when they leave an abusive relationship.

I'm definitely not saying that Ennis and Jack have an abusive relationship.  But another thing that saddens me about Ennis is how often he's seen at a table with five or six empty beer bottles.  The power of his character, for me, is how pained he is and how he struggles to deal with his life, and I think what draws people to be so empathic with him.  I know there are times when I can so relate to him.

Juan
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Was Ennis foolin when he threatened Jack?
« Reply #17 on: April 27, 2006, 09:43:15 am »
The only thing I can add to what's been said is that it always seems to me that part of what Ennis is doing there is making clear that even now, he is aligning himself with the homophobes and not with the homosexual.  It's what he got taught - when you find out that someone has had sex with a man, you kill them.  He could somehow torque it inside of himself that he himself ain't queer, so that doesn't count.  But if Jack has sex with another man, well that is queer, and thus a killable offense.

Thanks for saying that, Clarissa, in particular, "He could somehow torque it inside of himself that he himself ain't queer, so that doesn't count." While I do believe that Ennis is jealous of the idea of Jack having sex with other guys, I've been convinced for months that the intensity of Ennis's reaction to Jack's revelation is rooted in his own internalized homophobia.
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Offline sparkle_motion

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Re: Was Ennis foolin when he threatened Jack?
« Reply #18 on: April 27, 2006, 10:51:38 am »
I have to disagree with the current point being made. This was brought up a few months ago on IMDb. Some people made the point that after 20 years, Ennis realized that he was homosexual but I disagree with that point as well.
Ennis still denied to himself and others that he was homosexual, even after 20 years.
However, when he made that particular comment about killing Jack, I think it was made purely out of jealousy.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Was Ennis foolin when he threatened Jack?
« Reply #19 on: April 27, 2006, 12:32:18 pm »
I have argued about this before, notably with Jeff, who made some persuasive points. My own position on the gauge -- pure jealousy on one end and pure homophobia on the other -- has always hovered closer to the jealousy end. But I'll have to say, Clarissa, that your vivid image of an internal lynch mob nudged it a notch or two toward the homophobia end.

Still, I think Ennis' primary emotions here are anger and fear, in reaction to Jack's grim manner and ominous past-tense "I did, ONCE," and his suspicion that Jack already has been unfaithful and may be slipping away altogether. And as we all know, when Ennis feels overwhelmed by scary emotions his impulse is to try to control them with violence. (Speaking of good images, I love Anthony Lane's phrase that Ennis acts as if "the only option for the unrequited is to waylay one's own heart and beat it senseless.")

When Ennis says "boys like you," it suggests to me that he already has at least partly acknowledged what kind of boy Jack is, if not by extension himself. He doesn't say he'd kill Jack because he IS a boy like that, he says he would kill Jack if he personally were to be made aware of his specific boyish activities. As to what Ennis thinks HE is, you'd think he'd have noticed at some point that he finds men more attractive than women, and that if he was able to suppress that feeling when he was 19, over the next 20 years that realization would at least give him pause.