Author Topic: Lightning Flat Scene - Pentagram and 'Scythe' -- by CaseyCornelius  (Read 15243 times)

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Lightning Flat Scene - Pentagram and 'Scythe' -- by CaseyCornelius
      
UPDATED Fri May 4 2007 23:02:52
by - CaseyCornelius 11 hours ago (Tue Mar 21 2006 16:25:18 )   
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UPDATED Tue Mar 21 2006 22:28:09
Two more visual details from the Lightning Flat scene which I've not yet seen discussed - or missed the threads - one a Classical death symbol and the other a cross-cultural symbol of unification and love.


1] I've noticed on several recent viewings of the film a small metal 'weed whipper' to the left of the kitchen door as Jack's Mother comes out on the porch to greet and guide Ennis. I firmly believe and have posted and discussed with many other posters my thoughts that she is meant to visually suggest a Sibyl or guide through the underworld. So, I find it significant that the modern equivalent of a scythe, with which Death is depicted as his instrument of choice to cut off the earthly days of mortal man, is seen in this stark scene so redolent of death, loss, and the underworld.



2] Then there is the pentagram painted on one of the farm buildings which is centrally framed within the window up in Jack's room as Ennis gazes mournfully out. It is so screamingly obvious when one sees it in the film and such a striking visual motif. I'm wondering, given the wealth of Chinese and Western symbols which Ang Lee uses throughout the film, if this is not yet another example of a bringing together of a number of pertinent symbols - the four elements [Chinese], the full moon's uniting of lovers [Chinese], etc.

Pentagrams are frequently taken as a symbol of the four alchemical elements -- earth, air, fire and water -- plus a fifth point that means different things to different people, most often either divine power or the human soul. There are examples of the pentagram being used in Taoism and other Chinese systems as a symbol of the five elements used in Eastern cosmology -- wood, metal, earth, fire and water.
Furthermore, in Chinese culture there numerous other fives which might be pertinent here in addition to the five elements: five atmospheres; sacred mountains; colors, tastes, powerful charms; cardinal virtues; blessings.
In Classical Graeco-Roman mythology five is the nuptial number of love and union - the number associated with Venus.

The notion of the pentagram indicating blessings and a unification is very moving in this scene in Jack's room where Ennis discovers the 'wounded' shirts and realizes finally the deep and abiding love which Jack held for him unto and beyond his death.

I'd be very interested in what some of our Chinese cultural literary and symbolic reference posters might have to add or correct.

Let's get going.
      
Re: Lightning Flat Scene - the Pentagram and the 'Scythe'   
by - zyna_kat 11 hours ago (Tue Mar 21 2006 16:45:22 )
   

Then there is the pentagram painted on one of the farm's buildings which is centrally framed within the window up in Jack's room as Ennis gazes mournfully out.
Not to nit pick, but are you sure it was something painted on the side of the building? To me, it looks like a large door is open, and the pentagram is the visual shape of something inside.

Doesn't make it any less symbolic, but I do wonder exactly what that thing is... a object inside the outbuilding, or something painted on the wall.


Re: Lightning Flat Scene - the Pentagram and the 'Scythe'   
by - Rontrigger 11 hours ago (Tue Mar 21 2006 16:47:20 )
   

I never cease to be amazed at what can be found in this film. I certainly never noticed the modern-day scythe next to the Twists' front door, although I finally noticed the pentagram when someone mentioned it before.

And kudos, as always, to you, Casey. If that gathering takes place in Alberta next year, I'd say you have to be there.

Something else occurs to me--Jake Gyllenhaal is a student of Eastern religions, I believe. It would be so great if he were to see this thread!

"You can't have Ennis without Jack."--Annie Proulx


Re: Lightning Flat Scene - the Pentagram and the 'Scythe'   
by - The_Naked_Librarian 10 hours ago (Tue Mar 21 2006 17:01:25 )
   

Interesting. Is there any historical relationship between the pentagram and the Pentecost?


Re: Lightning Flat Scene - the Pentagram and the 'Scythe'   
by - CaseyCornelius 10 hours ago (Tue Mar 21 2006 17:34:43 )
   

UPDATED Tue Mar 21 2006 21:22:04
zyna kat:
I was certain that the pentagram was painted on building, but I could be mistaken - it is off in the distance and might be some other indeterminate shape through an open door. I do believe one can spy it earlier in the scene as well, as Ennis is getting out of his truck, and it appears to be a painting. Perhaps someone with a screener or advance DVD might be able to check it out.
As you say, it doesn't make it any less symbolic and, more to the point, what in the world is a pentagram doing in Lightning Flat on the northern Wyoming/Montana border in 1982? It's more food for thought that this penultimate 'visitation' scene is a mystical, singular, symbolic-laden anomaly within this seemingly most naturalistic and 'realistic' of films.


Re: Lightning Flat Scene - the Pentagram and the 'Scythe'   
by - stitchbuffymoulinfan 9 hours ago (Tue Mar 21 2006 18:11:40 )
   

I cannot add anything to the observations you've made although now I am going to be searching for them. (Yet another brilliant little detail to search for...)

Casey, I thoroughly enjoy reading your posts. You always notice the most extraordinary details in this movie. Thank you so much.

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Re: Lightning Flat Scene - the Pentagram and the 'Scythe'   
by - naun 8 hours ago (Tue Mar 21 2006 18:59:00 )   


While I don't have much to offer in the way of suggestions, I'm certainly looking forward to seeing where this thread goes. I've often wondered what that object near the door was, and what the significance of the pentagram might be. It evokes the flag of Texas, of course, but somehow I wanted more. The other thing it somewhat reminded me of visually was Jack looking across the darkened mountainside at Ennis' distant, star-like fire.
      
Re: Lightning Flat Scene - the Pentagram and the 'Scythe'   
by - afhickman 8 hours ago (Tue Mar 21 2006 19:44:49 )   


The pentagle or pentagram is a sign to ward off demons. I wouldn't be surprised if it's a rural practice in some parts of the country to paint one on barns, just as in the South you often find Bible verses painted there. Just for fun, here's a passage from Gawain and the Green Knight (the Brian Stone translation), wherein it is explained that the English call the pentangle "the Endless Knot." As a pure knight, the pentangle is the appropriate symbol for Gawain:

"First he was found faultless in his five wits.
Next, his five fingers never failed the knight,
And all his trust in earth was in the five wounds
Which came to Christ on the Cross, as the Creed tells.
And whenever the bold man was busy on the battlefield,
Through all other things he thought on this,
That his prowess all depended on the five pure Joys
That the holy Queen of Heaven had of her Child.
Accordingly the courteous knight had that queen's image
Etched on the inside of his armored shield,
So that when he beheld her, his heart did not fail.
The fifth five I find the famous man practised
Were--Liberality, and Lovingkindness leading the rest;
Then his Continence and Courtesy, which were never corrupted;
And Piety, the surpassing virtue. These pure five
Were more firmly fixed on that fine man
Than on any other, and every multiple,
Each interlocking with another, had no end,
Being fixed to five points which never failed,
Never assembling on one side, nor sundering either,
With no end at any angle; nor can I find
Where the design started or proceeded to its end.
Thus on his shining shield this knot was shaped
Royally in red gold upon red gules.
That is the pure Pentangle, so people who are wise are taught."

Any connection to BBM? As I mentioned in another post, Jack may represent a sort of trickster spirit, like Jack in the Green. He is often associated with green in both the story (his truck) and the film (his coat). The Green Knight of this story is a fairy with affinities to Jack in the Green, whose purpose, in British folklore, is to guard the woodlands.



"The Mountain Has Wings"


Re: Lightning Flat Scene - the Pentagram and the 'Scythe'   
by - BlackRabbitOfInle 7 hours ago (Tue Mar 21 2006 19:55:21 )
   

"While I don't have much to offer in the way of suggestions, I'm certainly looking forward to seeing where this thread goes."
Ditto to what naun has said.

May I just add that I LOVE your insightful posts, Casey? I wanna have your babies!!!

"Jack Twist."
"Ennis."
"Your folks just stop at Ennis?"

The Twists' Farm/Home   
by - WLH-V 7 hours ago (Tue Mar 21 2006 20:14:26 )   

   
UPDATED Tue Mar 21 2006 21:54:15
Casey wrote:
What in the world is a pentagram doing on the Wyoming/Montana border in
1982?


Actually, the scene in the BBM movie with Ennis arriving at Jack's parents' home is 1983!


Will

BBM nominated for the most 2006 Academy Awards: 8!


Re: The Twists' Farm/Home   
by - CaseyCornelius 6 hours ago (Tue Mar 21 2006 21:26:50 )
   

Hey, Will:
Not to nit-pick, but I was using the year given in the screenplay.
I, too have been confused by the chronology of the story and the discrepancies refuse to disappear. Jack and Ennis ARE 19 years old in 1963 the summer they meet, and Ennis hears of Jack's death at the age of 39 in the year 1982 [according to the screenplay]? Does not compute, but let's drop the subject in this thread.
I'm still curious to hear what others have to say about the pentagram and scythe.


Re: Lightning Flat Scene - the Pentagram and the 'Scythe'   
by - CaseyCornelius 6 hours ago (Tue Mar 21 2006 21:33:32 )
   

UPDATED Tue Mar 21 2006 22:19:17
naun:
Telling that you should mention the stars. I had thought of the line from the story's version of the 'dozy embrace' which takes place at night, not morning as in the film -- "Stars bit through the wavy heat layers above the fire." We seem to be in sync once again.

I had thought of the Star of Texas as well, except that the five-pointed star in the film is definitely enclosed within a circle, making it the more mystical pentagram. Maybe it's the remnant of a TEXACO symbol. I find it maddening that I cannot account for a naturalistic, realistic reason it should be there. It is yet another reason to be blown away by the whole Lightning Flat episode - I've seen it 11 times and it is STILL so full of portent that I feel as if I'm going to explode watching it.

      
by - Frank_Z 6 hours ago (Tue Mar 21 2006 21:34:49 )
   

UPDATED Tue Mar 21 2006 21:37:03
Jack and Ennis ARE 19 years old in 1963 the summer they meet, and Ennis hears of Jack's death at the age of 39 in the year 1982 [according to the screenplay]? Does not compute, but let's drop the subject in this thread.


Casey, I apologize for not dropping it just yet, since this is your thread, but depending on the time of year and the date of his birth, it could work out with the years given.

If Jack were born in 1943, then in 1963 he would have had his 20th birthday, but he would have been 19 up until his birthday.

In 1982, he would have had his 39th birthday and would have been 39 after his birthday.

---------------------------------------------

Now back to the pentagram and the scythe. I am waiting for it to get to the cheap theater to see it again, so it will be a couple of more weeks, probably, until I can look for these symbols.


Re: Lightning Flat Scene - the Pentagram and the 'Scythe'   
by - CaseyCornelius 6 hours ago (Tue Mar 21 2006 21:46:11 )
   

UPDATED Tue Mar 21 2006 21:51:03
naun:

I'm just catching up with a few other threads and noted in one of your posts in the Garden of Eden Symbolism thread:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0388795/board/thread/34425170?d=39012618#39012618

that you mention the anchor up in Jack's room and the Cross [bearing the inscription "Christ in Our Home", I might add] as coequal symbols as well as stating that --
"it hit me that the shirts themselves may have religious significance, because the bloodstains on the wrists so strongly evoke the Crucifixion."

The pentagram is a common Christian symbol for the five wounds of Christ.

---And we're off --- It's great to be discussing the beauty of this film again and not being forced to fend off the politics and ignorance of those who cannot appreciate the mastery and miraculous depth of this film.


Twists' Farm/Home   
by - WLH-V 5 hours ago (Tue Mar 21 2006 22:01:29 )   

Greetings, CC, et al.:

Is the anchor in Jack's room just described in the screenplay -- or is it in the movie? If so, was it on Jack's dresser w/ the lil' wooden horse?

We're thrown by many things -- such as E & J's age in 1983, though it was stated it was 39 -- because the authors, et al., changed information from story to screenplay to film.

BTW, in the "ABCs of BBM" game, that's exactly why we take words and quotes from all 3 sources!!!

Anchor's Away!

Will

BBM nominated for the most 2006 Academy Awards: 8!


Anchor hanging on the wall   
by - CaseyCornelius 5 hours ago (Tue Mar 21 2006 22:08:39 )
   

Will:
naun or someone else is welcome to correct me -- if memory serves, the anchor is hanging on the wall close to or above the bed.


Re: Lightning Flat Scene - the Pentagram and the 'Scythe'   
by - fernly 5 hours ago (Tue Mar 21 2006 22:10:21 )   

UPDATED Tue Mar 21 2006 22:21:20
Hi Casey,
Saw BBM again this evening - the pentagram looks to me like an object inside the building, with the 5 pointed star enclosed by an angular shape, not a circle. To account for it on the material rather than symbolic level, is there some kind of farm machinery that would have that as a part, now perhaps broken off/removed?
On the symbolic level, it's apparently important since it's visible both when Ennis drives up and when he is looking out Jack's window, and it's always puzzled me. As you said, It's more food for thought that this penultimate 'visitation' scene is a mystical, singular, symbolic-laden anomaly within this seemingly most naturalistic and 'realistic' of films. I'm enjoying reading the discussion. Thanks.

"on the mountain, flying in the euphoric, bitter air"


Re: Lightning Flat Scene - the Pentagram and the 'Scythe'   
by - CaseyCornelius 5 hours ago (Tue Mar 21 2006 22:12:44 )   


naun:
Three times lucky !!
More on the Anchor/Cross which is the shape of the anchor hanging on Jack's wall--
The Anchor Cross An early covert Christian symbol. It continues the symbolism of the ichthus, or "jesus fish," and represented the Church. It is one of several cross forms called 'dissimulata," meaning "dissimilar." It is a symbol commonly found in the Christian catacombs. The sybol predates Christianity as a pagan symbol.

Today, the lower portion of the anchor represents Mary's symbol, the crescent moon, surmounted by the cross of the son, Christ.

The web-page with the above info as well as visual examples is:

http://altreligion.about.com/library/glossary/symbols/bldefsanchorcross.htm




Re: Lightning Flat Scene - the Pentagram and the 'Scythe'   
by - xhepera 5 hours ago (Tue Mar 21 2006 22:27:45 )   


The pentagle or pentagram is a sign to ward off demons. I wouldn't be surprised if it's a rural practice in some parts of the country to paint one on barns, just as in the South you often find Bible verses painted there.

In the western mystical tradition the upright pentagram symbolizes the 4 alchemical elements (earth, air, fire, water) in balance, crowned by the 5th element (spirit). An appropriate symbol for warding off evil. The reversed pentagram, on the other hand, symbolizes the elevation of matter over spirit, which is why it's usually held to be "demonic."

The Pennsylvania Dutch settlers in this country paint(ed) so-called "hex signs" on their barns, among them the pentagram. Hex signs (from German Hexen, witch) were painted on barns to ward off evil. If there were German or Swiss immigrants to the area in question that would explain a hex sign being painted on the barn.

Never wrestle with a pig. You'll just get dirty, and the pig enjoys it.


Re: Lightning Flat Scene - the Pentagram and the 'Scythe'   
by - pipedream 4 hours ago (Tue Mar 21 2006 22:53:31 )   


UPDATED Wed Mar 22 2006 00:37:06
I don’t know much about Chinese literature, but even without it the pentagram is loaded with symbolic meaning:

* As Casey has pointed out already: it is one of the symbols of Venus, the Roman Goddess of Love. The name “Del Mar” could also be alluding to her because she came out of the sea and was born from meerschaum (remember that famous Botticelli-painting "The Birth of Venus"?); Another symbol for Venus is the rose which has five petals; apples belong the the family of rose-plants aswell. Cut them in the middle and you will find that their core looks like a pentagram (apple: the forbidden fruit in paradise = temptation);

* Others have said it already: pentagrams (drawn as five-pointed stars) were traditionally used to ward off demons. In the Middle Ages people also painted them on baby craddles and other important places in the house, especially on the thresholds. It was crucial for the symbol to be painted correctly. It had to be whole with no open vertices.
German literature has a famous example for this. In Goethe’s Faust, Mephisto (the devil) at first cannot enter Faust’s house because of the pentagram. He has to use a trick to get in.

* The Catholic Church first used the pentagram as a symbol for the five wounds of Christ. Later it changed into a sign for the devil and for witchcraft.

* The pentagram has always been associated with magic power and sorcerers. It symbolizes the control over astral powers. In eastern esotericism the astral world is called „Kama-Loka”. Kama stands for desire and passion, Loka means “place”. So the astral world ist the place of human desires and urges.

Nice thread. Keep going!



If ever I should tell the moment: Oh, stay! You are so beautiful! Then you may cast me into chains, then shall I smile upon perdition! (Goethe)


Re: Lightning Flat Scene - the Pentagram and the 'Scythe'   
by - RobertPlant 3 hours ago (Wed Mar 22 2006 00:27:01 )   


Here is a pic of the thing:

http://img93.imageshack.us/my.php?image=penta7ty.png

I don't know if it's an "object" or a something painting on a wall.
It's more properly a pentagon than a pentagram... same related symbolism anyway.

I'm packing my bags for the Misty Mountains
over the hills where the spirits fly


Re: Lightning Flat Scene - the Pentagram and the 'Scythe'   
by - pipedream 3 hours ago (Wed Mar 22 2006 00:39:14 )
   

Thanks for posting this RobertPlant! Here is what wikipedia says about the pentagram:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentagram


Re: Lightning Flat Scene - Pentagram and 'Scythe' (REPOST)   
  by Dancing_Bear   (Wed Dec 13 2006 18:04:35)   

   
Maybe the scythe is a symbol of Grim Reaper/Jack's death. The pentagram you describe sounds like something Ang would be familiar with, the balance of yin and yang in the context of health and the world around us. The outer 'circle' is the nourishing cycle, the star shape with directional arrows inside the border is the 'controller' or conquerer (I don't like that word) cycle. Water nourishes wood (eg. trees need water to grow), wood nourishes fire, fire nourishes earth, earth nourishes metal (ore is found in the earth), metal nourishes water, you are back to the beginning of the cycle. If any of the 5 elements or associated organs/properties are out of balance, then lack of equilibrium will ensue. For instance water is good, but say you have drought (not enough water) that's bad, if you have too much water (flooding and disaster), that's bad. As 'antidote' you would resort to a controlling element, a common concept in acupuncture. Equilibrium is health. To illustrate how the 'star' directional diagram works: Water controls fire, fire controls metal (think smelting ore here), metal controls wood (think axe chopping wood here), wood controls earth (think erosion prevention here), earth controls water(think banks of a river containing the water here), water controls fire and you are back where you started. You can google Chinese Five Elements and find the diagram.
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Re: Lightning Flat Scene - Pentagram and 'Scythe' -- by CaseyCornelius
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2007, 08:07:48 pm »
Having just been to the site of the Twist Ranch, the pentagram was formed by a rotary something or other (irrigation or something) that was placed inside the building (that is now collapsed) that you could see from Jack's window in that scene. 

It was sitting outside the now collapsed building.

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Re: Lightning Flat Scene - Pentagram and 'Scythe' -- by CaseyCornelius
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2007, 02:31:26 pm »
According to Fran, this is called a swather and it's a piece of farm equipment.

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Offline Casey Cornelius

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Re: Lightning Flat Scene - Pentagram and 'Scythe' -- by CaseyCornelius
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2007, 10:48:16 pm »
Hey Front Ranger and sfericsf:
Great to meet both of you on the Alberta Pilgrimage last week.

I'm responding to this re-iterated posting [with thanks to ToP/Bruce] in order to somewhat save face.  Bruce has
not quite posted even half of the entire content and exchanges from the original IMDb thread.  Hence, until he does a back-track I made mid-way through the original DID admit that the pentagonal design WAS actually an object.

The following is the original response:


Time for a major back-track at this point. It IS obviously an object viewed through a door - gratitude and kudos to the more observant of you who challenged this -NOT the painting I thought it was.


And, though I'm not giving up on the significance that the shape is there for a reason, the shape is of a pentagon, not a pentagram.

The telling point is that it appears to be the pentagonal reel end of a swather, a harvesting machine that cuts and windrows grain and seed crops.

http://www.toytractorshow.com/4750_swather.htm

Ergo, it is another symbol of reaping [Jack having been 'cut down' in his prime] and gathering [Ennis retrieving any memories or the only available memorial objects of Jack which he can] and an image coequal in significance and symbolism with the more primitive 'weed whipper' leaning against the house next to the door. Is there a single image, physical detail, or its symbolic import which Ang Lee did not thoroughly consider in this film?

It is so significant, given Eric's recent visit to the site and his observation posted above, that the object of death, reaping, and cutting down is now  under the collapsed weight of the barn.  The prosaic modern symbol of the 'swather' being crushed by the quiet ravages of time and entropy strikes me as poetic justice.

Our longing search for understanding of the myriad of poetic symbols in the film seems destined never to end.

Cheers to you, my Brokeback Buddies past and present,
Casey Cornelius
« Last Edit: August 02, 2007, 10:53:49 pm by Casey Cornelius »
What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand ...

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Re: Lightning Flat Scene - Pentagram and 'Scythe' -- by CaseyCornelius
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2007, 10:30:24 am »
You are so right, Casey.

I would also like to find out what kind of farm machinery is parked in the front yard of the "Twist house" in Wyoming, up on the Montana border. I think it is a discer, a thing that is used to break up the clods of earth prior to planting. How sadly appropriate that would be too.

Going back to swathing, at the very beginning of the following thread (a discussion of the story Brokeback Mountain) it mentions where swathing pops up in the story. Do you suppose Ang Lee, a graduate of the University of Illinois, learned about these implements during his time in the Midwest of the United States, and used them to tie in with the story??

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,8238.0/all.html

During a recent visit to Saskatchewan, I picked up a book called Threshing, all about agricultural practices on the prairies of North America. I can't wait to get home so I can look up swathing!
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Re: Lightning Flat Scene - Pentagram and 'Scythe' -- by CaseyCornelius
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2007, 06:03:45 pm »
Having just been to the site of the Twist Ranch, the pentagram was formed by a rotary something or other (irrigation or something) that was placed inside the building (that is now collapsed) that you could see from Jack's window in that scene. 

It was sitting outside the now collapsed building.

I was quite excited when Eric pointed out the pentagonal machine when we were at the site of the Twist ranch, and I took a picture of it, but alas, it didin't come back with my developed prints.  Another picture at that site, an old red pickup truck in the dilapidated barn, didn't come out either.

Just in the interest of being spooky, there was a white "smudge" on my lens for the pictures I did get back from that site, and also an interesting trick of the light that pointedly highlighted Jack's window.  Coincidence?  Or Jack's ghost at work?  ;)

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