Author Topic: BBM and the sin of Sodom  (Read 14221 times)

TJ

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Re: BBM and the sin of Sodom
« Reply #30 on: May 09, 2006, 12:10:28 am »
"Accepting the religion of Christianity" saves absolutely no one.

It's one's faith in Jesus the Christ and/or one's faith in the Creator of all Things which will save a person for eternity.

As an educated theologian, not being a braggart here, the religion of Christianity did not begin until the head of goverment decided that the churches who preached about Jesus should become organized and be a religion where all the people were supposed to believe the very same thing . . .  which is what the Emperor Constantine did in 325 AD when he convened the 1st of the 7 Church Councils in Nicea (which is in modern Turkey). Constantine presided over the Nicean Council, too.

I don't accept the Eastern Asian religions which come from countries which are still don't have the freedoms that the citizens should have. And, what has been done in the name of Christianity, the God of the Bible or even Jesus would never have been approved of Jesus the Christ himself. That's because what they have done and are doing goes against what Jesus taught.

The religious/spiritual practices of many Native American traditions are much better than what one could ever find in oriental/Asian religions.

A book I might recommend as an introduction to Native American Spirituality is "Secret Native American Pathways: A Guide to Inner Peace," by Thomas E. Mails.  I have the book. I learned more about my human spirituality by studying Native American Spirituality. I am a member of the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma. Mails has a good book on Cherokee history and tradition. I met some of the Cherokee people whom he consulted.

Here is the link to the publisher's page about the book: http://www.counciloakbooks.com/productdetails.cfm?PC=23 It can also be purchased through other sources.

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A revised and expanded classic, Secret Native American Pathways details the religious beliefs and ancient rituals of four major tribes: the Apache, Cherokee, Hopi, and Sioux. Mails provides the meaning behind each ceremony as well as instructions for applying Native teachings to contemporary life. Each tribe has overcome adversity through "walking the pathways" that lead to inner peace; now, readers can apply those same spiritual practices to their own lives.

Offline Impish

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Re: BBM and the sin of Sodom
« Reply #31 on: May 09, 2006, 10:31:09 am »
I find Jesus admirable as a teacher and an example of moral living, but I can't make that further leap into believing on him as the one incarnation of the Divine, born of a virgin, come into the world as the blood-sacrifice for Adam's transgression....

But in seeking paths that address my heart's deepest yearning and hope, I have found it useful to look East.

Scott

Me too.  I also believe at least one thing from The DaVinci Code:  that prior to the Nicene Creed, Jesus was seen as a human sage and prophet, not the son of a god, and this is how he viewed himself.  It was only much later after his death that this idea of him being a supernatural being was literally decided upon by committee when the Nicene Creed was created.

As for my spirituality, I'm closer to (some forms of) Buddhism than anything.  I'm a staunch atheist, and think the shrinking separation of church and state is the single most important crisis in the U.S. today.
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If you won't pray in my school, I won't think in your church.

Offline JennyC

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Re: BBM and the sin of Sodom
« Reply #32 on: May 09, 2006, 11:22:04 am »
"Accepting the religion of Christianity" saves absolutely no one.
I don't accept the Eastern Asian religions which come from countries which are still don't have the freedoms that the citizens should have.

TJ,

???  What religions got to do with a country's politics?  You accept or reject a religion based on its teaching and your faith, not a country's politics.  Religion is a ancient thing, people's freedoms (I assume it's the modern today freedom you are talking about here) were not recognized at that time.  I doubt any religion is centered on citizens' freedom.  Anyway I may misinterpret your statement here, just find it's a little bit blunt.

TJ

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Re: BBM and the sin of Sodom
« Reply #33 on: May 09, 2006, 12:43:18 pm »
Me too.  I also believe at least one thing from The DaVinci Code:  that prior to the Nicene Creed, Jesus was seen as a human sage and prophet, not the son of a god, and this is how he viewed himself.  It was only much later after his death that this idea of him being a supernatural being was literally decided upon by committee when the Nicene Creed was created.

As for my spirituality, I'm closer to (some forms of) Buddhism than anything.  I'm a staunch atheist, and think the shrinking separation of church and state is the single most important crisis in the U.S. today.

Have you really studied the Gospels on your own and let your own spirituality be involved with what you have read?

Jesus was only seen as a prophet by those who were just looking for a prophet.

Jesus admitted to 12 of his disciples that he was the Christ/Messiah and he was the son of God. But, he told them not to tell anyone else while he was still on the earth, liivng in a human body.

Jesus also preached separation of church and state.

The Nicene Creed came about because the "state," Constantine, became involved with the church in his empire and he demanded that the church leaders create a creed. And, it was Constantine's idea that the church leaders decide on a collection of books be made so that they would be reading the same Books from the Hebrew Scriptures and the New Testament Period writers in their churches.

It took the committee which was working on their version of the Bible around 60 years to make up their minds what should be in the final version which was called a "canon."

People can talk about Jesus and the Bible all they want and only read the commentaries instead of reading the stories and the teachings of Jesus in the Bible and those same people think they know everything.

The real mystery of the Gospel and its message is that unless the power of the Holy Spirit is involved in one's reading of the Bible, all the reader is doing is reading words on the pages of an anthology of collected works. Jesus himself promised his followers, at that time and in the future, that the Holy Spirit would be their teacher about spiritual things.

TJ

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Re: BBM and the sin of Sodom
« Reply #34 on: May 09, 2006, 12:56:57 pm »
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"Accepting the religion of Christianity" saves absolutely no one.
I don't accept the Eastern Asian religions which come from countries which are still don't have the freedoms that the citizens should have.


TJ,

???  What religions got to do with a country's politics?  You accept or reject a religion based on its teaching and your faith, not a country's politics.  Religion is a ancient thing, people's freedoms (I assume it's the modern today freedom you are talking about here) were not recognized at that time.  I doubt any religion is centered on citizens' freedom.  Anyway I may misinterpret your statement here, just find it's a little bit blunt.

Well, if you look at the countries in the world where the Roman Catholic Church was involved with the Spanish Conquistadors around the world, you will see that almost every one of those countries which was under Spanish rule with the RCC as the official religion has or has dictators in charge of the country.

Salvation in and by Jesus the Christ gives a person freedom. He did not preach a message of bondage. When he said, "Render unto Caesar's what is Caesar's and unto God what is God's," he was preaching separation of church and state.

His disciples, who wrote the Epistles, stated that one should do one's best to obey the laws of the state/country in which one resided as long as it did not interfere with their relationship with the LORD and contradict their testimony for Him.

Paul, the Apostle, took advantage of the fact that he was a Roman Citizen when the Jews wanted him to be killed. And, because of his citizenship, he was from Tarsus, he appealed to Caesar in Rome and even got escorted to Rome. And, although he was "officially" a prisoner of the Roman state while enroute, he still was allowed to preach at many of the places where they put the ship in port along the way. After his offical Appeal in Rome, Paul was set free. The Roman government at the time had no conflict with Paul's preaching. Paul was later executed when Rome had another head of government.

TJ

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Re: BBM and the sin of Sodom
« Reply #35 on: May 09, 2006, 04:37:55 pm »
Since the Da Vinci Code was brought up into this discussion, I thought that I would post what was in an email I got today from Sojourners organization.
 
http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=sojomail.current_issue

Brian McLaren on The Da Vinci Code
An interview by Lisa Ann Cockrel

With The Da Vinci Code poised to go from bestseller list to the big screen on May 19, pastor and writer (and Sojourners board member) Brian McLaren talks about why he thinks there's truth in the controversial book's fiction.

What do you think the popularity of The Da Vinci Code reveals about pop culture attitudes toward Christianity and the church?

Brian McLaren: I think a lot of people have read the book, not just as a popular page-turner but also as an experience in shared frustration with status-quo, male-dominated, power-oriented, cover-up-prone organized Christian religion. We need to ask ourselves why the vision of Jesus hinted at in Dan Brown's book is more interesting, attractive, and intriguing to these people than the standard vision of Jesus they hear about in church. Why would so many people be disappointed to find that Brown's version of Jesus has been largely discredited as fanciful and inaccurate, leaving only the church's conventional version? Is it possible that, even though Brown's fictional version misleads in many ways, it at least serves to open up the possibility that the church's conventional version of Jesus may not do him justice?

So you think The Da Vinci Code taps into dissatisfaction with Jesus as we know him?

McLaren: For all the flaws of Brown's book, I think what he's doing is suggesting that the dominant religious institutions have created their own caricature of Jesus. And I think people have a sense that that's true. It's my honest feeling that anyone trying to share their faith in America today has to realize that the Religious Right has polluted the air. The name "Jesus" and the word "Christianity" are associated with something judgmental, hostile, hypocritical, angry, negative, defensive, anti-homosexual, etc. Many of our churches, even though they feel they represent the truth, actually are upholding something that's distorted and false.

I also think that the whole issue of male domination is huge and that Brown's suggestion that the real Jesus was not as misogynist or anti-woman as the Christian religion often has been is very attractive. Brown's book is about exposing hypocrisy and cover-up in organized religion, and it is exposing organized religion's grasping for power. Again, there's something in that that people resonate with in the age of pedophilia scandals, televangelists, and religious political alliances. As a follower of Jesus I resonate with their concerns as well.

Do you think the book contains any significantly detrimental distortions of the Christian faith?

McLaren: The book is fiction and it's filled with a lot of fiction about a lot of things that a lot of people have already debunked. But frankly, I don't think it has more harmful ideas in it than the Left Behind novels. And in a certain way, what the Left Behind novels do, the way they twist scripture toward a certain theological and political end, I think Brown is twisting scripture, just to other political ends. But at the end of the day, the difference is I don't think Brown really cares that much about theology. He just wanted to write a page-turner and he was very successful at that.

Many Christians are also reading this book and it's rocking their preconceived notions - or lack of preconceived notions - about Christ's life and the early years of the church. So many people don't know how we got the canon, for example. Should this book be a clarion call to the church to say, "Hey, we need to have a body of believers who are much more literate in church history." Is that something the church needs to be thinking about more strategically?

McLaren: Yes! You're exactly right. One of the problems is that the average Christian in the average church who listens to the average Christian broadcasting has such an oversimplified understanding of both the Bible and of church history - it would be deeply disturbing for them to really learn about church history. I think the disturbing would do them good. But a lot of times education is disturbing for people. And so if The Da Vinci Code causes people to ask questions and Christians have to dig deeper, that's a great thing, a great opportunity for growth. And it does show a weakness in the church giving either no understanding of church history or a very stilted, one-sided, sugarcoated version.

On the other hand, it's important for me to say I don't think anyone can learn good church history from Brown. There's been a lot of debunking of what he calls facts. But again, the guy's writing fiction so nobody should be surprised about that. The sad thing is there's an awful lot of us who claim to be telling objective truth and we actually have our own propaganda and our own versions of history as well.

Let me mention one other thing about Brown's book that I think is appealing to people. The church goes through a pendulum swing at times from overemphasizing the deity of Christ to overemphasizing the humanity of Christ. So a book like Brown's that overemphasizes the humanity of Christ can be a mirror to us saying that we might be underemphasizing the humanity of Christ.

In light of The Da Vinci Code movie that is soon to be released, how do you hope churches will engage this story?

McLaren: I would like to see churches teach their people how to have intelligent dialogue that doesn't degenerate into argument. We have to teach people that the Holy Spirit works in the middle of conversation. We see it time and time again - Jesus enters into dialogue with people; Paul and Peter and the apostles enter into dialogue with people. We tend to think that the Holy Spirit can only work in the middle of a monologue where we are doing the speaking.

So if our churches can encourage people to, if you see someone reading the book or you know someone who's gone to the movie, say, "What do you think about Jesus and what do you think about this or that," and to ask questions instead of getting into arguments, that would be wonderful. The more we can keep conversations open and going the more chances we give the Holy Spirit to work. But too often people want to get into an argument right away. And, you know, Jesus has handled 2,000 years of questions, skepticism, and attacks, and he's gonna come through just fine. So we don't have to be worried.

Ultimately, The Da Vinci Code is telling us important things about the image of Jesus that is being portrayed by the dominant Christian voices. [Readers] don't find that satisfactory, genuine, or authentic, so they're looking for something that seems more real and authentic.

Lisa Ann Cockrel is associate editor at Today's Christian Woman.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: BBM and the sin of Sodom
« Reply #36 on: May 10, 2006, 07:28:19 pm »
Interview had some really good points.

People don't know much about the religion they profess and sadly, most of the leaders of the church do not encourage 'dialogues' when it comes to faith/belief, since faith in their system is not something they want people to doubt or question because if they do, the whole house of cards can fall.

TJ

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Re: BBM and the sin of Sodom
« Reply #37 on: May 10, 2006, 11:05:16 pm »
There have been, and still are, people who actually believe that the only version of the Bible God has ever authorized is the King James Version of the Bible. And sometimes that is because their personal Bible says on the title page, "Authorized King Jame Version." There a lots of "King James Bible Only" people and I actually met a gay pastor online who is one of those people.

Some also think that when "Revelation" was written in 95 AD, it was automatically added to the 1st Century Bible and that was why it the last book in the Bible, since no disciple who had been living at the time of Jesus did not write after that date.