Am I the only person...

[vkm91941]

But, I have found on the internet in various forum boards (not so much in this one) and in Yahoo discussion groups related to BbM that some women who are admittedly exclusively heterosexual in their sexual orientation think they know everything that there is to know about men who are exclusively homosexual in their sexual orientation. They even think they know gays better than gays know themselves.

That would be a very foolish assertion to make at least and a gross over generalization at worst.  Anyone, male or female, gay or straight,  cannot accurately claim to know the heart, mind or life experiences of another individual regardless of orientation. I am sorry TJ that some woman or women somewhere made emphatic sweeping statements that upset you.

[ednbarby]

Oh, I know the gist of the argument. I remember it plenty from imdb. It's silly, and it ignores any number of clues in the movie.

But Lureen wasn't really dedicated to Jack? Hunh? Or am I not getting your meaning?

Ya know, on second thought, you're right, Katherine.  I do think Lureen loved Jack.  Very much, in fact.  No, she didn't completely know him.  But she went after him after just one look - she wanted him and knew, or so she thought, how to get him.  She never understood why he couldn't love her completely because, again, she didn't know him completely.  She became embittered because of the lack of knowledge - my husband is drifting away from me, and I don't know why.  Is there someone else?  Or is it just me?  That's harder in a way than not knowing, I think.  And I think on second thought that to call her self-serving and incapable of loving him is harsh.  You can clearly hear the grief in her voice when she's telling Ennis what happened.  Yes, the little voice is as cold as ice, but it cracks a little on "He was only 39 years old" and on telling Ennis how he should get up to see his folks in Lightning Flat.  Only a woman who truly loved her husband would be that charitable to the man she realizes was the love of his life and the reason she could never have his heart.  I don't think Alma would have done the same if the shoe were on the other foot.  I know that's a stretch and maybe harsh, but I think she was more bitter than Lureen only because she knew about the two of them for a lot longer and had a lot of time to stew over it.

[ednbarby]

The homophobic so-called "Christian" fundamentalist religious right believe that no "one is really gay/homosexual;" they believe that they are rebelling agains the way God created them to be naturally. Those ignorant people go so far to say that homosexuality does not occur in nature and only human beings have homosexual sex.

They also believe that there are only two genders, male and female, too, not only in the animal kingdom, in humans, too. Because they literally believe the part of the Bible where it says when God created man, he created them male and female.

Those people have never even lived on a farm. I have seen young bulls who more interested in each other sexually than a heifer who was ready to be bred when I was on the farm.

Yes.  This is precisely what I mean.  And it's generally the fundamentalists who make this argument.  It cuts me to the bone every time because I know this is what they're getting at, and it's just so monumentally wrong.

[Jeff Wrangler]

Ya know, on second thought, you're right, Katherine.  I do think Lureen loved Jack.  Very much, in fact.  No, she didn't completely know him.  But she went after him after just one look - she wanted him and knew, or so she thought, how to get him.  She never understood why he couldn't love her completely because, again, she didn't know him completely.  She became embittered because of the lack of knowledge - my husband is drifting away from me, and I don't know why.  Is there someone else?  Or is it just me?  That's harder in a way than not knowing, I think.  And I think on second thought that to call her self-serving and incapable of loving him is harsh.  You can clearly hear the grief in her voice when she's telling Ennis what happened.  Yes, the little voice is as cold as ice, but it cracks a little on "He was only 39 years old" and on telling Ennis how he should get up to see his folks in Lightning Flat.  Only a woman who truly loved her husband would be that charitable to the man she realizes was the love of his life and the reason she could never have his heart.  I don't think Alma would have done the same if the shoe were on the other foot.  I know that's a stretch and maybe harsh, but I think she was more bitter than Lureen only because she knew about the two of them for a lot longer and had a lot of time to stew over it.

Barb,

That's a nice and very perceptive analysis of Lureen. My compliments! I think she does come off rather better in the film than she does in the AP original. I'm thinking specifically here of the story's final fishing trip, where Jack complains so bitterly about his wife's refusal to recognize that their son apparently has a learning disability. But it is too harsh to call her incapable of loving Jack.

Anyway, rather than have a specific beef about people making assumptions about the film, I have a deep disappointment in the response of one particular individual. He's an old classmate from graduate school, an expatriot who has been living in London for years, and also gay. I had an e-mail from him a couple of weeks ago in which he dismissed the film as "much ado about nothing" because "nothing much happens." I've been so dumbstruck by the lack of sensitivity on the part of an old friend and fellow gay man that I haven't been able to respond to his e-mail.

[serious crayons]

Yes, the little voice is as cold as ice, but it cracks a little on "He was only 39 years old" and on telling Ennis how he should get up to see his folks in Lightning Flat.  Only a woman who truly loved her husband would be that charitable to the man she realizes was the love of his life and the reason she could never have his heart.  I don't think Alma would have done the same if the shoe were on the other foot.  I know that's a stretch and maybe harsh, but I think she was more bitter than Lureen only because she knew about the two of them for a lot longer and had a lot of time to stew over it.

Thanks for agreeing, Barb, and I should probably just appreciate that, but I also have to take issue with "cold as ice." She sounds very rehearsed, and probably isn't thrilled to hear from Ennis, with good reason. But, as you say, her encouraging him to go see Jack's folks is a truly kind thing to do. I think Alma is WAY more bitter than Lureen. But you're right, she also has more to go on.

And Jeff, your post arrived just as I was about to post this. That is a disturbing experience.  What if you wrote back and said, in effect, "HUNH???" and then briefly summarized what you think DOES happen. I don't have any friends who have dismissed the film (mainly because most of my friends have inexplicably not seen it, at least last time I checked). However, I have two or three friends who liked it but only mildly. So I pointed out as many of the amazing things about it as I reasonably could in a short conversation and in each case, I think, their appreciation was deepened. Some people , even intelligent and sensitive people, just aren't attuned to its subtleties and as a result don't get it.

[ednbarby]

I can understand where you're coming from, Jeff.  It's been hard enough for me to discover that straight female friends who I thought were open-minded and compassionate can say basically the same thing and be so insensitive.  I just keep thinking that thank God my husband got it.  I'd trade my next 20 friends not getting it in order for him to.  To find out I'm married to someone so insensitive would have been devastating.  It may sound crazy, but I think it really would have been the beginning of the end.  We watched Memoirs of a Geisha last night, and he warmed my heart, again, at the end when he said, "That was nice and all.  But it was no Brokeback Mountain."  

As for Lureen's lack of acceptance of Bobby's learning disorder, I can relate to that, too.  My son is in that boat - he is very mildly autistic and is also starting to show signs of dyslexia.  I've been able to come to terms with it from the beginning.  But quite a few people in my own family have not.  Luckily, my husband isn't one of them.  But both of my parents keep saying, "There's nothing wrong with that kid that a little discipline won't fix."    And I know a few women with kids who have much more serious problems than Will who seem unwilling or unable to accept that their kid might need some extra help.  That's a fairly common predicament, unfortunately.  Doesn't mean the women are insensitive or selfish so much as that they just don't want to face the thought that they may in some way be responsible because of the way their pregnancies or childbirths went.

[Jeff Wrangler]

Thanks for agreeing, Barb, and I should probably just appreciate that, but I also have to take issue with "cold as ice." She sounds very rehearsed, and probably isn't thrilled to hear from Ennis, with good reason. But, as you say, her encouraging him to go see Jack's folks is a truly kind thing to do. I think Alma is WAY more bitter than Lureen. But you're right, she also has more to go on.

And Jeff, your post arrived just as I was about to post this. That is a disturbing experience.  What if you wrote back and said, in effect, "HUNH???" and then briefly summarized what you think DOES happen. I don't have any friends who have dismissed the film (mainly because most of my friends have inexplicably not seen it, at least last time I checked). However, I have two or three friends who liked it but only mildly. So I pointed out as many of the amazing things about it as I reasonably could in a short conversation and in each case, I think, their appreciation was deepened. Some people , even intelligent and sensitive people, just aren't attuned to its subtleties and as a result don't get it.

Thanks, Katherine, that's a good suggestion. I guess I've just been so disappointed in, baffled by, and even hurt by his response that I haven't had the heart to respond to his e-mail. Not when it's more fun to discuss the film with people who do "get" it, even when our interpretations vary. 

I've somewhat reluctantly had to give up assigning any significance to the "rehearsed" element in Lureen's conversation with Ennis. I've seen it pointed out that she is, after all, Jack's widow and undoubtedly has had to tell that tale many, many times, regardless of whether her story is the truth or a lie. Now here comes Ennis's phone call, presumably a couple of months after the fact, and she has to tell the story all over again.

Barb, I'm sure in the end Will will be very fortunate that you and your husband have been able to come to terms with his problems. I really only mentioned Jack's complaint as a way of pointing out that I think Lureen comes off better in the film than in the story. In the film, in the "blue parka" conversation with Jack, she comes off to me as a busy procrastinator--yeah, yeah, she'll get around to calling the school about getting a tutor for Bobby--not necessarily as refusing to acknowledge that there is a problem, which is how Jack in the story portrays her.

BTW, from everything I've ever read in your posts, your husband is a prince. Keep a good grip on him, girlfriend! 

[ednbarby]

I agree, Jeff.  Lureen does come off better in the movie than in the book on that regard.  And that my husband is a prince.  I keep reminding myself of that everytime he nags the crap outta me (he's a nitpicker extraordinaire, but if that's his biggest shortcoming, I'm doing very well.  )

[henrypie]

Hey Barb,

I'll give you ONE MILLION DOLLARS if you let me watch Brokeback Mountain with your husband.  Just one night.  Then everything goes back to the way it was before.... or does it?


Heh heh.

[Kd5000]

I'm had that discussion, verbally person to person with ppl about Ennis not being gay. IT's the way ppl are trained to view gay characters on film.  Ennis doesn't come out and say it like in so many films/tv shows/Oprah that he's gay.  Ppl are familiar with internalized homophobia or latent homosexual or gay guy who is so non-sterotypical...   It takes time for ppl to change their viewpoint