Can't Stand It - by nosunlight

[mariez]

Have to say again what an enjoyable story this is.  The writer doesn't shy away from the hard stuff, but she always manages to make me laugh, too.

Marie

[Penthesilea]

chapter 50 is up:

http://community.livejournal.com/brokebackslash/1599513.html#cutid1


*** Spoiler ***









I love this story, it's well thought-out and very good written. But at the moment, I'm not happy at all with Jack. I think the more Ennis grows and changes and is willing to make even more steps forward, the more egoistic Jack gets and the more Jacks moves backwards. I think the conditions he sets for a hypothetical move (if he had the benevolence to agree to it at all ) would be not fair and make them unequal from the beginning on.
He wants to have everything: his (and only his!) farm, the Petersons, a good, respected position in the community, a close relationship to Bobby, lots of money and the good feeling of being generous with it. And Ennis would be the icing on the cake.
But Ennis would have to give up everything and would have nothing except Jack: his job (job-wise he would gain nothing with a move) and his close relationship with his daughters, he would lose the possibility to see them as often as they want. Additionally, Jack would have the say about everything, would be his boss and would (theoretically) always be able to dump and fire him from one day to the next.

Not fair in my book. I hope they will be able to work out something fairer once they get to that point of getting specific about a move.

[mariez]

chapter 50 is up:

http://community.livejournal.com/brokebackslash/1599513.html#cutid1


*** Spoiler ***









I love this story, it's well thought-out and very good written. But at the moment, I'm not happy at all with Jack. I think the more Ennis grows and changes and is willing to make even more steps forward, the more egoistic Jack gets and the more Jacks moves backwards. I think the conditions he sets for a hypothetical move (if he had the benevolence to agree to it at all ) would be not fair and make them unequal from the beginning on.
He wants to have everything: his (and only his!) farm, the Petersons, a good, respected position in the community, a close relationship to Bobby, lots of money and the good feeling of being generous with it. And Ennis would be the icing on the cake.
But Ennis would have to give up everything and would have nothing except Jack: his job (job-wise he would gain nothing with a move) and his close relationship with his daughters, he would lose the possibility to see them as often as they want. Additionally, Jack would have the say about everything, would be his boss and would (theoretically) always be able to dump and fire him from one day to the next.

Not fair in my book. I hope they will be able to work out something fairer once they get to that point of getting specific about a move.

OMG, Chrissi - I'm relieved to see your post - I thought I was the only who was starting to feel a little uncomfortable about the last few chapters.  I, too, love the story and agree that it's well thought out and very well written.  But......I guess I have a "thing" about authors "favoring" one character over the other and maybe I'm too sensitive about it, but a few of the chapters have given me an unsettled feeling that that may be what's going on here.  And then, last night, I was reading the thread over at ennisjack about this story, looking for some opinions, and I see this one post where someone who's just started the story asked whether she should continue because of a reply the author made to a comment in an early chapter.  The author's reply being:  "It's fun to make Ennis suffer a little."  Yikes.  I went back and looked and the comment was indeed there after Chapter 2. 

I know she was probably joking but that doesn't sit right with me and, frankly, it's colored my view of the story now.  So....when the author has Jack saying that it's not about "punishment" - well.......hmmmmm.  In theory, I guess I can understand the rationale, but viscerally it doesn't feel right at all - and now that you've pointed out a few more things, I feel even more unsettled about it.  You're right - there doesn't seem to be much in the way of compromise in the plan.  And plus, that damn comment keeps running through my mind.  I almost wish I hadn't read it now - but it's like unringing a bell - can't be done! LOL!

Well, anyways, enough rambling.  Thanks for sharing your insightful thoughts.

Marie

[cwby30]

Afternoon, Penthesilia and Marie.

*** Spoiler ***

Well, after reading your comments, I have to agree with you on some of the points.  For so long Ennis held the reins, seeing Jack when he could make it.  Then, when Ennis turned him away after the divorce, Jack decided to take the reins and cut Ennis out of his life.  Then, when Ennis showed up unexpectedly, Jack lets Ennis back into his life, and practically begs him to move down.  Then, Jack has second thoughts because of what people would think/say, and the possibility of losing Bobby because of what Bobby would think and say, and is paranoid enough to be squirreling money in a Swiss bank account and other 'secret' accounts.  Reverse OS, anyone? 

So, I don't like the fact that Jack wants to have his cake and eat it too, so to speak, and force Ennis into a situation that he is entirely beholding to Jack.  Would rather see Ennis move down somewhere close, and establish himself separate from Jack, and they meet whenever they want to, whether outside of Kansas or in one or the other's place. 

Maybe Ennis should buy a Super Lotto ticket at a convenience store on his way back to Wyoming, and hit it big, and have enough money not to be beholding to Jack.  Where would that lead them? Would Ennis want to buy a half-interest in EJ's?  Would Jack be willing to sell a half-interest to Ennis if he offered?  That would be a real turning point in their relationship.  If Jack refused, then Ennis could leave like Jack did, and find his own way even though broken-hearted, and see whether Jack ever backs down. 

Guess all this means that I too think something's gotta give here, something rather monumental, something to make Jack reassess his 'terms and conditions', and Ennis to reassess them, too.  Just seems like Jack's terms are a recipe for disaster, and that Ennis may be putting too much trust in Jack despite Jack's professed promise to be a good employer. 

Also, just my personal tastes I guess, but Jack is pushing the sex a tad bit too kinky.  Don't really think OS Ennis would go along with all of that, unless Jack was willing to do the same, and even then... Ennis has come a long way over the past months in the story, but even then... But this is AU, so...

Thanks again.

[frantic65]

These last few chapters have really made me think hard about where J&E are truly heading right now. The no way you can ever be my biz partner statement threw me for a loop. I understand Jack's reasoning, but it seems to be a very cold almost calculating decision, where I would expect a more emotional reaction from him, leaving that possibility there-this just struck me as harsh. Ennis' reaction was just as disturbing-he kind of rolled over and said "ok, no problem" Add this to the money discussion & I'm starting to think of Jack as Mack Daddy Twist-

It is getting difficult to see them obtaining an "equal" footing to allow that sweet life to succeed. Then when Jack is thinking about how he doesn't want to jeopardize his new "family" (Brenda & Sam), I am getting real concerned. I see Ennis in danger of becoming a dirty little secret that Jack will prefer keeping in Wyoming, with great vacations with the kids to Disney (etc) and monthly visits to some nice hotel for a weekend of hot kinky sex. (Not that I'm complaining about that part!) Am I reading more into this than I should be??

I know Ennis still has his own pride issues that are by no means easily overcome, but how could he ever exist as a foreman at EJ's & expect to be taken seriously if he is openly living with Jack?  Of course, his being a biz partner gives them the same issues, but I feel the fact that Jack accepted him as a partner not an employee would make it a better situation. After all, if they were a het couple that got married, the woman would automatically obtain a vested interest in the business.

This is a very tangled mess right now & I can't wait to see how NS resolves things.

[mariez]

cwby and Fran - some very thoughtful comments.  Thanks for sharing - I always like to hear lots of perspectives. 

cwby - at this point it doesn't appear to me that Jack would even want Ennis to buy into a partnership - and you're right that that would be an acid test - but I don't think there's any chance of him winnng the lotto.  I'm not bothered that the sex is too kinky and I don't have a problem with Ennis liking it - but I do sometimes find myself confused as to, err, specifics, when they're hanging upside down from closet rods and such -  - sometimes my imagination isn't up to the task! 

Fran - "Mack Daddy Twist" made me LOL!  Yeah, it does seem a little like that, doesn't it?  I realize Jack has been hurt by a lot of people, including Ennis.  But the hurt that Ennis caused Jack in the past was never intentional, it was only born from his own considerable pain and self-loathing.  So I don't think it's quite accurate for Jack to lump Ennis in with Lureen and L.D. as people who have controlled and hurt him - the issues he had with them, as hurtful as they have been, are not Ennis's fault.  The author refers to Jack as finding an "inner strength" - and I like that a lot - that's always a good thing for anyone.  But inner strength has nothing to do with money or power or how much stuff we own or how many people we think we "control."  And that's something I don't think this Jack has learned yet. 

Yes, a very tangled mess, with a lot of complex issues (and I don't even think we've seen all of them yet!).  It will be interesting to see how it all plays out and if, indeed, everything can be resolved.

Thanks,
Marie

[frantic65]

Hi Marie,

Yes-complex issues sums it up very well & your musing that there may be more to come in that department sounds pretty accurate to me. One of the things I love most about this story is that she is not predictable & always keeps me off balance though.

Jack's "inner strength" seems to be coming out in that kinky sex though-don't you think?? He's been acting a little on the dom side. Hmmm.

[Brown Eyes]

**Spoilers, questions, etc... **

I agree with many of you that this sudden idea from Jack that he would not be willing to share EJ with Ennis in co-ownership/ management seemed like a very odd gesture from a typical-Jack-character.  I always thought that the reason that he named the farm EJ was because he was dreaming that Ennis would someday be co-owner.  I do understand his desire for control and for calling the shots in the relationship for a while... especially following Ennis's divorce fiasco, but I think he's definitely going too far at the moment.

And, I have another somewhat related question... Do you think Jack is being paranoid about Bobby's potential reaction to Jack being gay and/or to his relationship with Ennis?  I find it a tad hard to believe that a kid could do as much damage as Jack seems to think he could.  And, I find it upsetting that Jack thinks that being outed really could mean the end to his success as a farmer and cause so much overall damage to his life.  Is this situation about Jack being as paranoid/ overly worried as Ennis usually is in other fanfics, etc.?

[mariez]

SPOILERS





Hi, Amanda!

Yep, I was nodding my head while reading your post, I think you stated that perfectly. 

Yes, the Bobby thing is confusing to me, too!  I'm not clear on exactly what it is that Jack thinks will, or could, happen. From what I gather he thinks that Bobby might want to go back to Lureen and L.D. and then he'd have to run off with Bobby to keep that from happening?  I don't know ....that sounds a little extreme to me.  I'm not sure what the answer is, but I think Jack has to start being more pro-active in having talks with Bobby and not just wait for Bobby to act up and say hateful things and then try to correct them.   I totally understand that Jack is walking on eggshells when it comes to Bobby - the poor child has been through a lot - but I don't think he's doing Bobby any favors by pampering him and, in fact, he's probably hurting him in the long-run. 

I'm also not sure about what he thinks will happen to the farm - does he think he'll lose all his customers and everyone he does business with? Is this where that creepy Scott comes into the picture - there's been a lot of foreshadowing about him for awhile.  Yeah, it is ironic - Ennis has completely opened up to him - and now Jack is the paranoid one!  I know Jack has a lot invested in the farm and a lot to lose - but if that's Jack's rationale, then weren't Ennis's fears all those years equally valid?  Why does having money and propery make it ok to be fearful? 

Well, as I said, a very complex set of issues!

Thanks,
Marie

[Penthesilea]

***Spoilers***

..., but I think he's definitely going too far at the moment.

Yup.

And, I have another somewhat related question... Do you think Jack is being paranoid about Bobby's potential reaction to Jack being gay and/or to his relationship with Ennis?  I find it a tad hard to believe that a kid could do as much damage as Jack seems to think he could.  And, I find it upsetting that Jack thinks that being outed really could mean the end to his success as a farmer and cause so much overall damage to his life.  Is this situation about Jack being as paranoid/ overly worried as Ennis usually is in other fanfics, etc.?

From Mariez:
Yes, the Bobby thing is confusing to me, too!  I'm not clear on exactly what it is that Jack thinks will, or could, happen. From what I gather he thinks that Bobby might want to go back to Lureen and L.D. and then he'd have to run off with Bobby to keep that from happening?  I don't know ....that sounds a little extreme to me.

No, I don't think Jack fears Bobby would want to go back to Lureen and LD. But what he fears is that Bobby, in a first (?) angry, hateful, exaggerated reaction would run for the phone - first chance he'd get  - and tell Lureen/LD everything straightaway. And LD/Lureen wouldn't stand for their son/grandson growing up in the household of a queer (let alone two, if Ennis moved in). So Jack fears LD/Lureen would take some kind of action against him (from fighting for custody to send out hired killers).

I think this setting is illogical for two reasons: first of all, Bobby is ten years old. Kids of that age are not *that* hateful. He may have been influenced by LD and have prejudices against people who are "different" in any way - but he's too young to hate in an adult manner. And kids of this age are so influenceable. Especially by a parent who they love and trust (what Bobby obviously does with Jack). My girls are 9 and 11. If I told them the earth is flat, and everything I've told them before about this subject and everything they've learned at school or ever heard about the earth being round had recently proven wrong by newest scientific research - they would believe me.
If Jack told Bobby there's nothing wrong with loving and living with another man and explained it, Bobby would believe him. He's ten!

The other reason I find the setting not thoroughly logical is that the author completely ignores what is much more likely to be the case: If he knew, Bobby would sooner or later blab about it to Lureen/LD. Even if he has no contact w/ them at the moment, this won't last for eternity.

Of course the author writes the story the way she likes to (and rightfully so). So if she wants Bobby to be truly hateful, she'll just write it this way. But I, as a reader, have the choice to find it realistic or unrealistic.

But even when/if I find the Bobby subplot not very realistic, it doesn't take away from the story for me. I can overlook this.
What bothers me more is Jack's egoistic attitude.
And yeah, I think it is about punishment and it is about money. Just imagine Jack would have bought a much smaller property had managed to get by the last two years, but hadn't made much profit. How welcome Ennis' skills and willingness for hard work would be.