Author Topic: How Did Jack Die?  (Read 29183 times)

Offline welliwont

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 805
Re: How Did Jack Die?
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2006, 09:13:55 am »
Good idea for a poll. But Phillip, if it's not too late you might want to add an option for agnostics -- those who think we aren't supposed to know the answer.
Ditto.  I support this whole heartly. 
I concur. Like Ennis, we cannot know with certainty how Jack died, and this is part of what makes the story so haunting.

I too think this poll needs to be ammended to include the fifth choice "We are not supposed to know how Jack died".  Two days ago I "wasn't there" but now I am....  helped in part by reading the first four pages of the 79 pages on the Dave Cullen Forum "Jack's Fate".

To paraphrase some of the excellent posters there, I believe that we are not supposed to know how Jack died, we are supposed to be in the same place Ennis is, and to quote from the final line in the story:  "There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it.

Here is a quote from the post by Carl, on Page 1 of that thread at DC Forum: 
While we may think it is important whether Jack was killed in accident or murdered...in the story it only matters that we know no more than Ennis.  Otherwise, how can we truly understand his pain?  Ennis only knows what is told to him. He can envision many truths, some obviously more ominous than others.  But, the only way we, as an audience are going to understand the anguish of this character is to know only as much as he did, and thereby go night after endless night trying to lose the horrible images of our imagination.
Then the clouds opened up and God said, "I hate you, Alfafa."

Offline Rayn

  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 520
  • I'm also on FaceBook under Rayn Roberts
Re: How Did Jack Die?
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2006, 10:56:07 am »
Nice post "J"... I agree.  We really can't know exactly how Jack died, however while I can understand how Ennis might feel and think, I do not have the fears and emotional difficulties with Jack's death that Ennis has.  Being who he is, Ennis has the greatest difficulity, but as say, "a friend" of Ennis, I can more easily look at the situation and come to the reasonable conclusion that there's no way to know how Jack died.  I guess it's a matter of degrees.  Ennis will naturally be haunted by the Jack's death more than anyone else while the rest of us can move on more easily.

Rayn

Offline serious crayons

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 18,015
Re: How Did Jack Die?
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2006, 11:22:14 am »
Well put, J ... and Carl. There are several ways this movie gets us not just to understand the characters' emotions, but to actually share them. This is one of them. (Another one is keeping love scenes scarce and abbreviated, so we always feel there's never enough time, too.)

Originally I was a total agnostic, thinking it could go one way the other. After reading other discussions, I'm still uncertain but, if I had to choose one, I would pick murder. There are lots of ominous signs, such as the dead sheep, pointing that way.

But that still leaves me exactly where Ennis is: leaning toward murder but not knowing for sure. And not knowing (according to a bunch of people in this very situation, whom I interviewed years ago) is more torturous even than knowing the worst.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2006, 11:51:41 am by latjoreme »

Offline DecaturTxCowboy

  • Sr. Ranch Hand
  • ***
  • Posts: 60
Re: How Did Jack Die?
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2006, 02:45:50 pm »
Re: How Did Jack Die

With his boots on.....
Take it like a man - steady and strong, not a lot of fuss and carring on.  True to a promise, I can ride in any storm.  So bend over and take it like a man...Too much of a good thing is a good thing.

slayers_creek_oth

  • Guest
Re: How Did Jack Die?
« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2006, 03:09:35 pm »
I too think this poll needs to be ammended to include the fifth choice "We are not supposed to know how Jack died".  Two days ago I "wasn't there" but now I am....  helped in part by reading the first four pages of the 79 pages on the Dave Cullen Forum "Jack's Fate".

To paraphrase some of the excellent posters there, I believe that we are not supposed to know how Jack died, we are supposed to be in the same place Ennis is, and to quote from the final line in the story:  "There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it.

Here is a quote from the post by Carl, on Page 1 of that thread at DC Forum: 
While we may think it is important whether Jack was killed in accident or murdered...in the story it only matters that we know no more than Ennis.  Otherwise, how can we truly understand his pain?  Ennis only knows what is told to him. He can envision many truths, some obviously more ominous than others.  But, the only way we, as an audience are going to understand the anguish of this character is to know only as much as he did, and thereby go night after endless night trying to lose the horrible images of our imagination.


Good point J!

Offline isabelle

  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 865
  • And French-kissing, too!
Re: How Did Jack Die?
« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2006, 05:41:42 pm »
While I think a definitive answer isn't necessary to feel the full impact of the tragedy, which is that Jack died because of Ennis' fears (he wouldn't have died at that particular time in whatever way it was he died if Ennis had done what he wanted), I maintain that it was the tire iron.  I maintain this because I think the Jimbo/bar scene was intended to foreshadow it.  But I also concede that I could very well be wrong. 

I agree ednbarby. Except the Jimbo/bar scene also serves to precipitate Jack into marriage.
" - I'm vegan now."
"-Vegan? I thought you were still Church of England"

Offline serious crayons

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 18,015
Re: How Did Jack Die?
« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2006, 07:03:20 pm »
I love how many scenes have multiple objectives and meanings and points. There's a thread going on about how many different purposes the 4th of July scene might have -- there's a bunch -- and that's one that some people consider one of the weaker scenes!

Back to Jimbo: It also shows Jack missing Ennis, since from a distance (a LONG distance) Jimbo looks kind of like Ennis. Well, same color hat and shirt, anyway.

Offline ednbarby

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,587
Re: How Did Jack Die?
« Reply #17 on: May 21, 2006, 07:17:56 pm »
I agree ednbarby. Except the Jimbo/bar scene also serves to precipitate Jack into marriage.

And I agree right back!  And with you, too, Katherine - this scene does serve multiple purposes, and I agree that being the catalyst for Jack getting married (and spending a year nearly starving being the catalyst for finding a wealthy wife) is an important one.
No more beans!

Offline Rayn

  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 520
  • I'm also on FaceBook under Rayn Roberts
Re: How Did Jack Die?
« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2006, 01:35:41 am »
Re: How Did Jack Die

With his boots on.....


Good one DecaturTxCowboy....  Love your humor.

Rayn

Offline isabelle

  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 865
  • And French-kissing, too!
Re: How Did Jack Die?
« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2006, 07:31:40 am »
"I'm the son of rage and love." Just SPOT ON to describe Jack! Did you find this yourself? (*Bows in admiration*)
" - I'm vegan now."
"-Vegan? I thought you were still Church of England"