Sarah Waters: Books & Movies Discussion

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While there is a little lull in our Affinity discussions....How about some....
















.... because Nan is always lingering somewhere in a corner of my mind!

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Amanda -  where are ya, Bud? 

Lee - You almost done with Tipping yet?   


Yet another side note on the book I am reading now ...
To Believe in Women:  What Lesbians Have Done For America - A History(1999) by Lillian Faderman.

From Amazon.com
Taking up where her 1981 classic, Surpassing the Love of Men, left off, Lillian Faderman reveals that many of the early leaders who fought for women's suffrage, higher education for women, and women's entrance into "male" professions would in today's parlance be called lesbians: "women who lived in committed relationships with other women." Unencumbered by the duties of marriage and motherhood, they were more likely to have the time, energy, and freedom to work for women's rights. In fact, they were more or less obliged to try to better women's lives, Faderman argues, for there was no man to represent them at the polls or support them financially. (Although Elizabeth Cady Stanton's husband and seven children failed to distract her from the cause, her friend Susan B. Anthony used to help her with the children and housework before they settled down for political strategy meetings.) During the Depression, when women's social and economic gains began to dwindle, it was these "single" women who kept professions open while married women were being fired in favor of men. Faderman gracefully surveys a century of advancement and retreat, shedding light on America's debt to women-loving women. --Regina Marler --


What an amazing writer/historian... It is a fascinating read. 
I am just starting the third chapter but so far, so very good. 

[Brown Eyes]

Heya Milli!  I'm right here Bud... ain't goin' nowhere.    I've been glued to the TV more than usual lately with all the crazy news going on, so I've been on BetterMost a little less the last few days (plus things have been pretty busy at work too, so I don't think I've been posting quite as much as usual this week so far).

Anyway, thanks for the great pictures in your earlier post.  I love that pic of Zena kissing Nan's ear.  It's so hard to think about Zena taking off in the middle of the night with the little bit of money they had.  Nan was still so hopeful as she fell asleep (even in that awful shelter she was so optimistic), only to wake up to be so disappointed.  I was actually genuinely surprised that Zena would betray Nan like that, she really hadn't seemed the type earlier.  It's also sort of interesting to realize that the actress would go on to play a real, hardened thief in Fingersmith.

I wanted to let you know that I received my copy of Beyond the Pale in the mail tonight!  Yeehaw.   I'm really looking forward to reading it.  And, will of course keep you posted.

To Believe in Women really is a fascinating book.  I already have that book!    Gay and lesbian history truly is riveting to read about.

So, now I have a recommendation... I don't remember if I've mentioned this book before or not.  It's called Strangers: Homosexual Love in the Nineteenth Century by Graham Robb.  It deals with subjects pertaining to both gay women and gay men.  It's a page-turner it's so interesting.  My best gay male friend recommended it to me.  Actually, I started reading it once at his apartment and ended up borrowing it to finish it... and then I bought my own copy.


And back to a few Affinity points...
I think your suggestion about Vigers reading Margaret's diary and conveying the information about the Helen-relationship to Selina is very good.  I bet that's the answer to the question about how Selina could have figured out so quickly that Margaret was a lesbian (particularly given Margaret's prim and proper appearance, etc.).

So, I have a general question to keep the Affinity discussion flowing.  How do you feel about Selina?  I mean, by the end after we know everything... do you have sympathy for her on any level and how drastically does your opinion of her change?  Prior to the big revelation about what Selina was really up to... how do you feel about Selina (in terms of liking her/ not liking her... being intrigued/ being suspicious or skeptical, etc.)?


I also have a big overarching question about these 3 Waters' stories that have been turned into film versions...  What common denominators do you see in Waters' themes/issues/plot devices and storytelling strategies do you see.  To me one of the most obvious storytelling device that Waters uses in all three... and to varying degrees of subtlty... is the surprise plot twist that changes the reader/viewer's understanding of the entire situation.  But, it seems like there are actually a lot of themes, etc. that run through all 3 of these stories. 

Somehow I tend to think of these 3 as a kind of informal trilogy for some reason, with Nightwatch being a slightly separate thing.

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Hey Amanda! 

Great discussion topics you have brought up!
I shall return later today with my response to your questions.   


First,
You got Beyond The Pale!! Fabulous.     Definitely keep me posted on that score.

Also, I just ordered the book you recommended (Strangers: Homosexual Love in the Nineteenth Century ) from Amazon!

I am thoroughly enjoying To Believe in Women.  It get goosebumps as I read the enormous challenges these women went through to bring us to the point where we are today.  It is also fascinating to get a glimpse into their loves and relationships with other women, especially around the turn of the century when the innocence of "romantic friendships" was starting to fade away. 


Here are a few items on my reading list in the very near future..

   
Odd Girls And Twilight Lovers by Lillian Faderman

Life Mask & Slammerkin by Emma Donoghue (Thanks for the recommendation!)

The Collected Stories of Elizabeth Bowen by Elizabeth Bowen

Well Of Loneliness by RadClyffe Hall  (been meaning to read this book forever...)

and a few more...(including "Strangers" which you just recommended! ) 


I shall be back to resume our SW discussion!


~M

[Front-Ranger]

Speaking of surprise plot twists, I just encountered one in Tipping the Velvet. It's a good thing there was a bit of a spoiler about it here, because if I'd read it cold, it might have caused me to choke on my chardonnay!!

[Brown Eyes]

Heya Milli!

That's quite a reading list you have!  I really liked Life Mask.  And, given that it's lesbian story in a historical context (somewhat like a lot of Waters' writing), I think you'll probably enjoy it too.  It's well written and pretty complex as a story.

On the other hand, I have never been able to get through The Well of Loneliness.  I've tried a couple times and for some reason I always lose interest in it.  It's such a classic I keep giving it a shot.  Maybe I'll try again one of these days. Maybe I'll put that back on my list to follow Beyond the Pale and then Lonesome Dove (and I'm still working on finishing Prodigal Summer before I start anything new... that was the book Elle recommended when I saw her in Seattle this summer).

Speaking of surprise plot twists, I just encountered one in Tipping the Velvet. It's a good thing there was a bit of a spoiler about it here, because if I'd read it cold, it might have caused me to choke on my chardonnay!!

   Which plot twist have you come upon Sister Mod?

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Greetings Amanda & friends..


Affinity Spoilers below...






Prior to the "big revelation" ...(I'm going back to when I read the book for the first time)..
I really believed that Selina loved Margaret.  I was not sure what to make of Peter Quick and the apparition of Selena's hair or the purple flowers in Margaret's room.  There were lingering doubts in the back of my mind.  But not unlike Margaret, I trusted Selina and actually started to believe it all;  I got sucked into Margaret's blossoming love and excitement about the prospect of being in love and being loved in return.  I got so carried away with her that when everything 'came out', I felt like I had been punched in the face.  I remember tossing and turning in my bed till 5am the night I finished the book; wondering how I could've been so fooled.

Bottom line is ... Selina was evil.   
She was scamming Margaret from the beginning, pretty much.  Once she knew who Margaret was and how much value her friendship could be, she played along so well.

To be fair, I tried to look at circumstances from Selina's perspective -
* she was desperate, (Millbank was not anyone's idea of a good life, quite the opposite in fact)
* she had a lover on the outside she really wanted to be with (Vigers)..
I can understand that she was in dire straights.  The thing is, she didn't just swindle Margaret out of a little bit of money.  Her deception was very well thought-out; quite the intricate scheme she worked out.  In the end, it was not just financially, emotionally damaging to Margaret.. it was much more.

What is so devastating about it all was that Margaret was already in a delicate state - she was recovering from an attempted suicide, after loosing two very important people in her life - Helen & her father.  She was lonely and tired of her claustrophobic life and controlling mother.  Then here comes Selina, beautiful, mysterious, charming, talking of twin souls and affinities...  Margaret didn't stand a chance.  I mean, who would have anticipated the depths of deception that were revealed later?  Margaret certainly didn't.  Neither do we as first-time readers of the book or first-time viewers of the film.  That is what hurts me so much about Selina - all the layers of lies.

I think that there was a point when her heart softened with the frequency of Margaret's visits..  Maybe she genuinely felt something for Margaret.  I am still struggling with that; going back and forth perhaps.   Whatever it was, it certainly wasn't enough to save Margaret from betrayal in the end.  Did Serena really feel nothing when Margaret said she might die if they couldn't be together?  I wonder.  She knew the contents of Margaret's journal.  She knew her state of mind...all the more reason why her betrayal is so...brutal.

After all is said and done, my sympathies lie with Margaret. 


On to your next question a little later... 

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Amanda:

My copy of "Strangers" arrived in the mail today..along with 7 other intriguing books to read!  (I just need a few more hours in a day, lol)..

Tell me, didja start "Beyond the Pale" yet? 


~M

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Hey Amanda! 

I also have a big overarching question about these 3 Waters' stories that have been turned into film versions...  What common denominators do you see in Waters' themes/issues/plot devices and storytelling strategies do you see.  To me one of the most obvious storytelling device that Waters uses in all three... and to varying degrees of subtlety... is the surprise plot twist that changes the reader/viewer's understanding of the entire situation.  But, it seems like there are actually a lot of themes, etc. that run through all 3 of these stories.

I agree with you there, Amanda.. about the surprise plot twists SW uses so well in all three books.

One other theme that stands out is not just the aspect of love between women, but love between women from different classes/backgrounds in their Victorian world; and how that factors into the dynamics in these relationships. 

* In Tipping, Nan's roller coaster life after Kitty eventually leads her to Diana, who is as wealthy and proud a Sapphist as could be in her day, perhaps.    We have had, as I recall, interesting discussions in the past about Nan & Diana's relationship or 'arrangement' whatever you may call it.  There was definitely no question that Diana held the reins in that relationship... she had the money, the power..where did that leave Nan?

* In Fingersmith, Sue and Maud are clearly from different backgrounds.  When they come together, they each have their reasons for the attachment; they each seek self-betterment at the expense of the other.  Interesting how that relationship developed into something much more, even in the thick of lies and secrets.

* In Affinity, same sort of thing.  Serena is at the lowest point of her life, locked up in Millbank; Margaret is well-off, but unlike Diana in TTV, she is very closeted, depressed and thereby vulnerable in many ways.  As we both know, she sadly didn't get the girl in the end..


I think that SW portrays and uses these class differences exquisitely when she weaves her tales.
The three novels have this underlying theme running through them, yet each story is varied, rich and laden with interesting plot twists.   

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A bit OT but ....
When I saw this piece of news on Yahoo, I had to bring it here! 
This is the first I'm hearing about this...



"Happy-Go-Lucky"s Sally Hawkins gets Oscar buzz

By Christine Kearney



NEW YORK (Reuters) - Actress Sally Hawkins is relatively unknown in the United States but an acclaimed role in British director Mike Leigh's new film may find her on Hollywood's red carpets this awards season, a prospect she calls "gob-smacking."

The London-born Hawkins, 32, has been gaining Oscar buzz from critics for her role as Poppy -- a jokey, infectiously optimistic schoolteacher in Leigh's touching comedy "Happy-Go-Lucky" that is released in the United States on Friday.

Earlier this year she won the best actress award for the role at the Berlin Film Festival. More recently some film critics have named her as an Oscar contender for best actress while the Hollywood Film Festival just named her their breakthrough actress of the year.

With several Oscar-worthy movies yet to be released in the United States, Hawkins said she was not holding her breath, but would be a "mess" if she ever made it on stage.

"I'd probably by that point be so disturbed I don't think it would come out making any sense. It would probably be the most embarrassing Oscar speech ever," she giggled during a recent interview.

But such modesty combined with a sharp wit and intelligence is what her admirers say is typical, including Leigh, who first cast her in his 2002 film "All Or Nothing."

Leigh said Hawkins deserved an Oscar nomination, saying playing Poppy, whose carefree attitude belies a more astute and worldly perception, was more difficult than it looked.

"Because there are lots of complex things going on, she really has to be on the ball about playing the character," Leigh said. "She always has to be in the moment, it's a completely organic performance."

Leigh, 65, whose other films have won actresses Oscar nominations including Brenda Blethyn for "Secrets & Lies," said he cast Hawkins because "without question it was time to make a film that put her at the center."

As with all of the director's films, Leigh, Hawkins and the other actors improvised and developed the script together in workshops for months before filming started, a process Hawkins said is demanding, requires trust but is ultimately rewarding.

After acting in three of his films, Hawkins laughed when asked if the forthright Leigh should be indebted to her.

"I would love to say that he is indebted to me, but I think I would get a smack around the head!" she said. "But I owe him such an extraordinary amount. He was my first introduction into the world of film, and he opened my eyes in a way I can never really thank him enough for."

She said she borrowed her own philosophy on how to be happy from her parents, who were successful children's book authors and illustrators.

"What I learnt from quite an early age was it doesn't matter whatever you are doing, as long as it makes you happy and as long as you are driven by it," she said. "And not trying to please other people because then you will end up in a dead end."

She is not unknown to other directors, having appeared in Woody Allen's "Cassandra's Dream" and she recently finished filming on new movie written by British author Nick Hornby.

But if her career does keep rising, is she afraid of losing her obscurity?

"I do love my privacy, but unless you are an Angelina Jolie, well, I don't think I really have much to worry about," she said laughing.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/reuters/081008/entertainment/entertainment_us_sallyhawkins