Question actually about the movie

[bbm_stitchbuffyfan]

Alright, I still immensely enjoy discussing the movie itself and the book (as long as I'm not talking to dumb ass trolls). I've had a particular question since I first saw the movie but I never thought to ask...

What is the purpose of the Fourth of July scene?

I first thought it was to show Ennis' violent side but I was wondering what everyone else got out of this scene. By the way, even though I am not sure of it's purpose, I love this scene. The motorcyclists scream 'trash' (that in itself makes me giggle) and it's absolutely thrilling to see Ennis kick some ass. Nobody messes with Ennis Del Mar.

And plus, visually beautiful -- once again.

[Jeff Wrangler]

Alright, I still immensely enjoy discussing the movie itself and the book (as long as I'm not talking to dumb ass trolls). I've had a particular question since I first saw the movie but I never thought to ask...

What is the purpose of the Fourth of July scene?

I first thought it was to show Ennis' violent side but I was wondering what everyone else got out of this scene. By the way, even though I am not sure of it's purpose, I love this scene. The motorcyclists scream 'trash' (that in itself makes me giggle) and it's absolutely thrilling to see Ennis kick some ass. Nobody messes with Ennis Del Mar.

And plus, visually beautiful -- once again.

I've seen and participated in a discussion of this scene on another thread, but unfortunately I can't remember where it was. I'm still not really sure of the purpose of this scene, either. It does act as an example of Ennis responding to a stressful situation with violence. It also shows Alma looking terrified of him, while she stands in the background holding the girls. I've had the unhappy suspicion that it didn't really exist for any other reason than the advertising shot of Ennis against the backdrop of the fireworks, but I'd now at least say this is really a very subversive scene. Here's Ennis, in this scene to all intents and purposes the all-American cowboy hero, defending his family on the Fourth of July, fireworks and all--and this man is actually gay.

[serious crayons]

This scene doesn't seem as cohesive as some. But here are some possible meanings I can think of or have heard from others. Not all are necessarily valid and some are outright questionable, but some of them make sense:

-- Illustrates Ennis' violent streak and short fuse.
-- Establishes why Alma would be afraid enough of Ennis to avoid confronting him about Jack. Wrongly, I think (why would a wife fear her husband would turn anti-biker violence toward her?), but still.
-- Provides iconic Americana trailer image.
-- Shows gay men can beat up straight bikers.
-- Demonstrates difference in the way Ennis fights with Jack (when leaving Brokeback), whom he loves, and the more damaging way e fights with guys he hates.
-- Shorthands the story's reference to the many barfights that Ennis engaged in over the years. True, this isn't set in a bar. But it's more colorful this way.
-- Shows that Ennis gets nervous when he hears other men discussing pussy and humping.
-- Sets up a "maculinity" bookend/echo: on one holiday, Ennis successfully beats up bikers while Jack strikes out with Jimbo. But later in the movie on another holiday, Jack successfully tells off L.D. Newsome while Ennis gets beat up. Jack has progressed and matured -- and settles things with words -- while Ennis hasn't and doesn't.

[Jeff Wrangler]

-- Establishes why Alma would be afraid enough of Ennis to avoid confronting him about Jack. Wrongly, I think (why would a wife fear her husband would turn anti-biker violence toward her?), but still.

I'm not sure about the "not confronting him about Jack" part, but I think the other point isn't turning "anti-biker violence toward her," but rather that maybe Alma has never seen Ennis being violent before, and now she knows her husband is capable of violence.

-- Provides iconic Americana trailer image.

This is the one I was trying to get at.

-- Sets up a "masculinity" bookend/echo: on one holiday, Ennis successfully beats up bikers while Jack strikes out with Jimbo. But later in the movie on another holiday, Jack successfully tells off L.D. Newsome while Ennis gets beat up. Jack has progressed and matured -- and settles things with words -- while Ennis hasn't and doesn't.

Now, there's an interesting thought! Except I'm totally missing the part about Jack progressing and settling things with words. When did we see him being violent like Ennis? Their rough-housing on the mountain was their version of foreplay, Ennis's bloody nose was an accident, and Ennis slugged Jack in response. And personally I'd hardly call the language he uses to L.D. Newsome "progress." 

[bbm_stitchbuffyfan]

Thanks for the responses!

I think the scene illustrates Ennis' violent tendencies and Alma's awareness and apprehension of such.

I could go on and on about the McMurtry-Ossana/Lee interpretation of the original story; but, all three of them used their own artistic license to change a lot of the original story.

The majority of details that they changed were very minuscule though. And off course they had to add scenes to flesh the story out considering the film is derived from a short story.

And personally I'd hardly call the language he uses to L.D. Newsome "progress."

That's very moral of you but considering that L.D. is such a freakin' prick, I thought of it as "progress." 

I agree, though, that Jack didn't really progress, as he had used words with Jimbo. (I didn't know that scene took place on Fourth of July.) I do see Jack as a dynamic character though. The only way I can figure those scenes being an example of that, however, is how we first see Jack rejected and embarrassed and later, sticking up for himself (I know the context of the scenes is different but still). I see it instead as another example of symmetry in this brilliant movie.

I forgot the book referenced Ennis getting into a number of fights over the years so maybe that was another reason why they inserted this scene in the script. There is no way this scene is there just for that image used in the trailer, as beautiful as it may be. I feel this way because the film appears to have been written very conscientiously as we only see the integral highlights (including both the ups and downs) of these guys' twenty-year relationship.

[serious crayons]

Keep in mind that I was listing every possible purpose I could think of or have heard of for the scene, with the caveat that not all of the ideas were equally legitimate. I think it's actually a combination of more than one of these (the most easily defensible is probably that Ennis got in barfights in the story).

I'm not sure about the "not confronting him about Jack" part, but I think the other point isn't turning "anti-biker violence toward her," but rather that maybe Alma has never seen Ennis being violent before, and now she knows her husband is capable of violence.

Sure. But some people have pointed to this as explaining why she never confronts Ennis about Jack. My feeling is just because he beats up a couple of slop-bucket-mouthed bikers, ostensibly in defense of Alma, doesn't mean he would turn the same violence toward her, and few wives would draw that conclusion. But yeah, if you just want to say this scene shows Alma that Ennis can be violent with obnoxious strangers, that's indisputable.

Now, there's an interesting thought! Except I'm totally missing the part about Jack progressing and settling things with words. When did we see him being violent like Ennis?

I meant Jack used words both times and Ennis used fists both times; Jack's approach initially failed but eventually worked, and Ennis' initially worked but eventually didn't. They're not perfect parallels, because the situations are all different. But in all four scenes, they are confronting some sort of challenge to their "masculinity," so I think the parallel is deliberate.

And SBF, you're right, I kind of sneaked that one in about July 4th, there's no evidence that the Jimbo scene takes place on that day. It adds to the parallel to notice that Ennis' experience is on a holiday, and then the later events also take place on a holiday (both American holidays, for what that's worth). The Jimbo scene is not explicitly on the 4th. That would be too neat and obvious. But the two scenes (4th and Jimbo) take place one after another, so presumably they happened close to each other in time.

And personally I'd hardly call the language he uses to L.D. Newsome "progress." 

Why, Jeff! For some reason I never took you for a person with delicate sensibilities regarding coarse language!  I will be sure to watch my own tongue around you in the future. 

[Sheyne]

If you operate on the basis that every single scene in the movie is put to good use and is there to fulfill some purpose, then my $0.02 on this one would be showing any or all of the following:

- Ennis is always quick to defend and protect his little girls (even if they have to watch him being physically violent and using the F word);

- He is - and always will be - a man of few words; more physical than verbal.. with Jack in the motel after the "Brokeback got us good" comment, he doesn't speak, but pulls Jack's arm closer around him - and with the bikers, he responds to them by kicking in their teeth;

- Perhaps the look on Alma's face is why we see this scene. You can tell she's aghast. Despite being with him for as long as she has, she has never seen this side to her husband. Still waters run deep?  They sure do...

[Toast]

I agree with most of the things above, the scene shows different facets of Ennis and the 20 year history.

But here is how I see this from inside Ennis' head:

Here you are two useless riffraff guys, able to openly talk about your sexual desires, openly and rudely with no respect for your partners.   But here am I aching and longing for my man who respects me and wants me too, but we cannot even admit to ourselves that we have these strong legitimate feelings.  We cannot publicly admit our love, but you can crudely say the most sexual things that reflect no real commitment or respect.

I can hear him saying "You have your Independence Day, and you have this freedom and that freedom, but so can I have my freedoms too.   This is my Independence Day, and I take all my rights and freedoms, too.  And I take them with a side order of teeth, if you please."

But then he is reminded that his rights come at a cost to his wife and daughters too.

Freedom's just another word
for nothing left to lose.
K. Kristofferson

[serious crayons]

I agree with most of the things above, the scene shows different facets of Ennis and the 20 year history.

But here is how I see this from inside Ennis' head:

Here you are two useless riffraff guys, able to openly talk about your sexual desires, openly and rudely with no respect for your partners.   But here am I aching and longing for my man who respects me and wants me too, but we cannot even admit to ourselves that we have these strong legitimate feelings.  We cannot publicly admit our love, but you can crudely say the most sexual things that reflect no real commitment or respect.

I can hear him saying "You have your Independence Day, and you have this freedom and that freedom, but so can I have my freedoms too.   This is my Independence Day, and I take all my rights and freedoms, too.  And I take them with a side order of teeth, if you please."

But then he is reminded that his rights come at a cost to his wife and daughters too.

Freedom's just another word
for nothing left to lose.
K. Kristofferson

Toast, from now on that's how I will choose to think of this scene.

Your posts are beautiful! This one gave me chills and make me feel like crying simultaneously.

[Penthesilea]

I think all of the mentioned reasons are valid. I want to add that the bikers were not only foul-mouthed in general, but direclty attacked Ennis (verbally) after his first, still non confrontational (according to screenplay, memory doesn't work exactly on this scene right now) attempt to get them qiueting down.

Biker:" Fuck you!" (mumbles to his friend) "Asshole probably stopped puttin' it to the wife after the kids come, you know how that is."
(from screenplay)

What cheek! Ennis's masculinity is called into question by this. Plus: the biker is at least halfway right with his assumption/allegation. Ennis's sex life with Alma is not the livliest and happiest. Hence the allegation hits Ennis twice as hard: first because it's rude and second because it's true and hits Ennis's weak point.

At this point of the story Ennis is heterosexually married, his relationship whith Jack on Brokeback is years ago and it's before the postcard/reunion. Externally he is an average heterosexual, manly guy. And this is also what he wants to believe about himself.
Another purpose of the 4th of July scene is therefore to show Ennis's inner struggle during the four years between Brokeback and the reunion. The contradictoriness between his external appearance/life and his internal feelings.