Author Topic: who/what in BBBM/real life would you like to "fix "rather than stand?  (Read 12435 times)

Offline myprivatejack

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Re: who/what in BBBM/real life would you like to "fix "rather than stand?
« Reply #30 on: March 20, 2008, 12:06:14 pm »
Brokeplex, I agree with your statement; it was unrealistic to imagine Ennis ever soliciting a therapist for help.  Hell, he couldn't even admit what he thought were his weaknesses (even though they weren't) to himself.  How in the whole wide world could he have ever admitted it to another???

Artiste, I also believe that both Jack and Ennis tried their whole lives together to be sort of therapists to each other, from the moment that Jack says it's all right in TS2.  But does that mean they ever succeeded?  If so, would Ennis have been on his knees crying in the final scene, and would Jack have been trying so hard to understand this moment of desperation/hopelessness/weakness in a man he perceived as so strong for 20 years?

I don't know, maybe you'd like to explain?


I also believe that both of them-but in a greater extent Jack-were a sort of therapists to each other; from the very moment they began to share duties and loneliness in BBM,both of them helped each other to overcome the results of some unlucky childhood and adolescence-Ennis for having lost his parents,Jack for having had such a rough father-.In the sense that both of them made the other feel important for himself,feel appreciated and valued for what and how he was.I've always thought that this helped Jack to have his feet more on the ground and Ennis to open himself more than never before...,it's to say,giving each other what they were lacked of.
From this moment onwards,however,and although they helped each other- even unconsciously- in coming to terms with their feeling and sexuality somehow,specially Jack was wrong in his therapist's role.I mean,he never dared to put Ennis really against the ropes,in a kind of ultimatum about their situation; he didn't want to fear him with a too strong reaction that made him scape and lose him...He didn't use a "shock therapy" that is sometimes necessary,but only tried to manage the situation the best he could.The result was that Ennis was building during years an edifice of a greater separation between their meetings with the "bricks"of the many excuses he always put to avoid commitment.And with the confrontation scene all the things they had inside themselves come out to the surface; so Ennis broke down by hearing all what he also felt but he didn't dare to admit even to himself.ÍMO, their therapist's role worked as a friends much more than as lovers indeed.
I like your silences,quiet conversations of evident sensations,where our words are life´s tinsels.
The lost illusions are the found truths.

Offline Mandy21

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Re: who/what in BBBM/real life would you like to "fix "rather than stand?
« Reply #31 on: March 20, 2008, 12:17:39 pm »


The result was that Ennis was building during years an edifice of a greater separation between their meetings with the "bricks"of the many excuses he always put to avoid commitment.

I agree with you, m.p.j., the only way I can semi-justify Jack's reticence to confront Ennis or threaten to leave Ennis over the years is to believe that he was 100% unconditionally in love with Ennis.  I remember believing in this so much that I struggled to understand the final scene between them, with the "wish I knew how to quit you" line.  When you last for 20 years with someone as a friend/lover, even if it's only infrequently and in secret/shame (in Ennis's mind, at least), what's 21 years, 22 years, 23 years, etc. in the scheme of things?

It's very intriguing to me that their final scene together alluded to a break-up, and then Jack ended up dead before they could possibly reconcile.  Makes it all the more tragic, the not knowing if Ennis was finally realizing Jack's commitment to him which caused Ennis to send the what-turned-out-to-be-returned "deceased" postcard to meet up again.
Dawn is coming,
Open your eyes...

Offline optom3

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Re: who/what in BBBM/real life would you like to "fix "rather than stand?
« Reply #32 on: March 20, 2008, 12:43:25 pm »
Artiste, I simply thought that Ennis had so many leftover childhood repressed memories and fears instilled in him, that he never would have been able to live in the same house with a man, no matter how much he loved him.  I agree with the observation that maybe the reason their relationship lasted so long was purely because they saw each other so few times, and those times were always special and mysterious, and they both saw to it that they were magical moments, every one of them.

Afraid I don't agree that either of them would have seen a therapist in that day and age, Fiona, just my opinion.  Surely not a common thing to do back then.  Did any of you folks see the movie "Far From Heaven" with Dennis Quaid (ironically enough) and Julianne Moore?  Shrinks can't exactly cure being gay, can they?  And why would they want to, anyway?



That is what I meant,probably phrased it badly.He would have needed therapy but would never have got it in those days.So I agree wth you completely.

Offline myprivatejack

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Re: who/what in BBBM/real life would you like to "fix "rather than stand?
« Reply #33 on: March 20, 2008, 12:55:37 pm »
I agree with you, m.p.j., the only way I can semi-justify Jack's reticence to confront Ennis or threaten to leave Ennis over the years is to believe that he was 100% unconditionally in love with Ennis.  I remember believing in this so much that I struggled to understand the final scene between them, with the "wish I knew how to quit you" line.  When you last for 20 years with someone as a friend/lover, even if it's only infrequently and in secret/shame (in Ennis's mind, at least), what's 21 years, 22 years, 23 years, etc. in the scheme of things?

It's very intriguing to me that their final scene together alluded to a break-up, and then Jack ended up dead before they could possibly reconcile.  Makes it all the more tragic, the not knowing if Ennis was finally realizing Jack's commitment to him which caused Ennis to send the what-turned-out-to-be-returned "deceased" postcard to meet up again.

Yes,he was deeply in love,so much as to not threatening the only thing he had; these few meetings two or three times a year...However,and in my opinion,he began to see there was no real future for them in the scene near the river,when Ennis makes fun of his suggestion to move to Texas after showing his paranoia.I think he began a struggle between his heart and his mind,because he saw this but he can't put it into practise; for this reason he said that "wish I knew how to quit you"...For me,the real problem is that always there's a point of non return,and Jack was at the point of arriving to it in their final scene together; they had to have said all these to each other much before and these thing were" rotting" inside them until they finally explode...Perhaps they had reconciled,because Ennis sent him a postcard to met again after this "explosion"; to have a relief,I like to think that all what they said then served to think it over and try to find a solution together when we had met.As a matter of fact,after Jack's death,we see a kind of "new" Ennis,with a greater commitment with his inner self; why couldn't this happen also if they met again after the struggle?.
I like your silences,quiet conversations of evident sensations,where our words are life´s tinsels.
The lost illusions are the found truths.

Offline Artiste

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Re: who/what in BBBM/real life would you like to "fix "rather than stand?
« Reply #34 on: March 20, 2008, 06:52:40 pm »
Thanks Mandy!

You say:
Artiste, I also believe that both Jack and Ennis tried their whole lives together to be sort of therapists to each other, from the moment that Jack says it's all right in TS2.
............

Yes, they BOTH made then steps in the BM movie!! They BOTH succeeded then SAME time!!
Just realised that so rare mutual timing!! Right??

So why could they NOT mutually again come to be so together again for the rest of their lives as a COUPLE??
.............


You say:
But does that mean they ever succeeded?
..........
They were about to do so... again, right??

Au revoir,
hugs!

Offline Monika

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Re: who/what in BBBM/real life would you like to "fix "rather than stand?
« Reply #35 on: March 22, 2008, 12:36:51 pm »
I think about the last scene as Ennis "killing" Jack in a sense. By letting Jack down once again (one time too many) he makes Jack think for the first time that they might not have a future together, he kills what is so essential to Jack - hope and a "we can fix it" attitude. He puts out the light in Jack and so in a way kills Jack because if Jack loses his hope, then what´s left of him? Nothing. He might just as well die, which he does. But Ennis killed him physically before his body died.
And of course, without Jack there is no Ennis, and therefor the story ends shortly afterwards leaving the audience with the knowledge that Ennis has in fact commited a type of suicede.

Offline Artiste

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Re: who/what in BBBM/real life would you like to "fix "rather than stand?
« Reply #36 on: March 22, 2008, 04:46:02 pm »
Thanks buffymon!

Wow, you are very strong:
I think about the last scene as Ennis "killing" Jack in a sense. By letting Jack down once again (one time too many) he makes Jack think for the first time that they might not have a future together, he kills what is so essential to Jack - hope and a "we can fix it" attitude. He puts out the light in Jack and so in a way kills Jack because if Jack loses his hope, then what´s left of him? Nothing. He might just as well die, which he does. But Ennis killed him physically before his body died.
And of course, without Jack there is no Ennis, and therefor the story ends shortly afterwards leaving the audience with the knowledge that Ennis has in fact commited a type of suicede.
...........

Buffymon, may I say, that Jack also refuses Ennis, in a way !! Unfortunately!!
Could that be called a paradox ?? Is that the right word?? Yes, a paradox that each do, unfortunately, since they take there turns to refuse being together, right?? I figure that they were soon to be together, is that just a dream of my part?

I still think that both could have lived together, especially if society would let them, and if they let themselves too!!
But, would that be possible??

To some viewers, Ennis is Jack and Jack is Ennis!! As one person!! What do you think??

Au revoir,
hugs!!

Offline optom3

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Re: who/what in BBBM/real life would you like to "fix "rather than stand?
« Reply #37 on: March 22, 2008, 08:12:34 pm »
Thanks buffymon!

Wow, you are very strong:
I think about the last scene as Ennis "killing" Jack in a sense. By letting Jack down once again (one time too many) he makes Jack think for the first time that they might not have a future together, he kills what is so essential to Jack - hope and a "we can fix it" attitude. He puts out the light in Jack and so in a way kills Jack because if Jack loses his hope, then what´s left of him? Nothing. He might just as well die, which he does. But Ennis killed him physically before his body died.
And of course, without Jack there is no Ennis, and therefor the story ends shortly afterwards leaving the audience with the knowledge that Ennis has in fact commited a type of suicede.
...........

Buffymon, may I say, that Jack also refuses Ennis, in a way !! Unfortunately!!
Could that be called a paradox ?? Is that the right word?? Yes, a paradox that each do, unfortunately, since they take there turns to refuse being together, right?? I figure that they were soon to be together, is that just a dream of my part?

I still think that both could have lived together, especially if society would let them, and if they let themselves too!!
But, would that be possible??

To some viewers, Ennis is Jack and Jack is Ennis!! As one person!! What do you think??

Au revoir,
hugs!!

Jack is Ennis and vice versa,I agree.To me that is what defines one type of real love.2 people who come together in every sense and who are incomplete without each other.When they are together,the 2 halves literally make one whole.That is why true love can be so perfect.The optimist with the pessimist,the practical with the dreamer.They each take from each other what is lacking in themselves.And it is not just taken but willingly given.
There is another type of love where 2 people are so identical  they recognise that in each other.They are so similar they complete each others sentences.Know what the other will say before they say it.And know that the other person is their soul mate instinctively.In this case it is not 2 halves comming together,but more  one whole,almost divided into 2,then recombined.
Jack and Ennis fall I believe into the former category,they are incomplete without each other.
The tragedy of any true love is that if you let it go,you will spend your life searching for something to fill the gap.Or am I just talking of myself here,I wonder?And hanging on to fragments of a lost dream,literally and metaphorically,hanging on.Just as Ennis does.

Offline Artiste

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Re: who/what in BBBM/real life would you like to "fix "rather than stand?
« Reply #38 on: April 04, 2008, 10:59:28 am »
Cassie!!