a girl with an opinon

[Katie77]

I agree, Barbara, you definately got it right.......

[Katie77]

I've had this thread on my mind ever since I read it yesterday......I actually wrote a reply then, but after reading it back, it just didnt seem right, so I deleted it....so here I am again, giving it another go.

When I first read the original post to this thread, I thought, using the term "cheating" and when the original poster said that "that's what this movie was about"....I didnt want to agree with her, because to agree, would somehow cheapen the movie, and I didnt want to do that.

The more I thought about it, I tried to find some rationalism for the boys "cheating" on their wives, without actually saying that it was OK for these two but not OK for most other married men....

As a heterosexual married woman, when I saw the movie for the first time, when Alma looked out the door, and saw Jack and Ennis kissing, I couldnt help but feel her shock and her pain....after viewing the movie so many more times since, I seem to have forgotten about Alma's feelings, and just concentrated on Ennis and Jack's feelings...but now that this thread is in my head, I have now gone back to thinking about Alma.

My personal views on infedility, are that, if someone who is married, or in a partnership, cheats with someone else, then it should be done with discretion, and above all, in a way that doesnt hurt and cannot hurt the person they are cheating on....if that person discovers that their partner is cheating, then it will hurt them, but if they dont find out, then it is quite possible that they will never be hurt....(I am not trying to say that cheating is right, I'm just saying, that it is more likely to hurt someone, if and when they find out)...Ennis didn't directly hurt Alma.

I dont really think that Ennis thought he was cheating on Alma, I dont think, it was like his marriage to Alma, and what he had with Jack were two completely different things....he wasn't replacing what he got from Alma, with what he got from Jack....what he got and needed from Jack, was only something he could get from Jack...

As with most "lovers", there is a kind of unwritten law.....you can cheat on your spouse, but damned if you can cheat on your lover....very hypocritical, but quite a common fact.....remember how Ennis got angry with Jack, when he thought he had gone to Mexico and had someone else....yet he lauged when Jack said he was seeing the ranchers wife.....in his mind it was two different things, and in fact, it was.

I guess, it all comes back to the boys trying to please society, living a life that they just weren't meant to be, but unable to live the way they wanted because of the homophobic society that they belonged to.....its still happening today, many gay men marry, and then are forced to "cheat" on their wives, to fulfil their needs.

As much as I have used the word "cheat" many times thru this post, I too hate the word, when used in this context....I have used it here, merely for want of a better word, I do not use it in my usual conversation......I still dont know, if what I have written here, makes any sense, to me, or to any reader, my thoughts are all jumbled, but I needed to put them out there......

[jpwagoneer1964]

While I am certainly against cheating in any form I understand in the context of the film why Ennis and Jack did meet up for all those trips. I comend Ennis for staying with Alma and remaining in Riverton after their split for  his daughters and encouraging Jack to stay with his family. Even without his fears I doubt Ennis would leave ever thought to leave Alma with two children.

Having said that, say this. If I meet another man who decided it was OK to leave his family just because he realized he was gay and not face up to the commitments of raising his children with their mother I'm going to be the one throwing the punch!

[Penthesilea]

As with most "lovers", there is a kind of unwritten law.....you can cheat on your spouse, but damned if you can cheat on your lover....very hypocritical, but quite a common fact.....remember how Ennis got angry with Jack, when he thought he had gone to Mexico and had someone else....yet he lauged when Jack said he was seeing the ranchers wife.....in his mind it was two different things, and in fact, it was.

Never heard about this unwritten law.
But on a similar tone, I don't have any resentments on either Ennis or Jack for cheating on their wifes. But I do have resentments on Jack, especially storyJack ("He had some money now and and found ways to spend it on his buying trips"), for cheating on Ennis. Resentment is perhaps a too strong word here, but I lack of a less strong alternative here.

I dont really think that Ennis thought he was cheating on Alma, I dont think, it was like his marriage to Alma, and what he had with Jack were two completely different things....he wasn't replacing what he got from Alma, with what he got from Jack....what he got and needed from Jack, was only something he could get from Jack...

I respectfully disagree here. Even if it took him years to comprehend what he and Jack had together (and some people think that he never truly understood "this thing" before Jack's death), in the essence the act of cheating means having sex with a person other than your spouse/wife/husband/partner. Simple as that. And therefore both knew very well they very cheating on their wifes. But I think they had each their own ways to cope with that, to justify it to themselves. In the sense of what you wrote: two completely different things.

I guess, it all comes back to the boys trying to please society, living a life that they just weren't meant to be, but unable to live the way they wanted because of the homophobic society that they belonged to.....its still happening today, many gay men marry, and then are forced to "cheat" on their wives, to fulfil their needs.

"living a life they just weren't meant to be" Too true.

What you wrote and what else was said on this thread made me think of the thousands of women who are forced into marriages against their will by society's rules, their fathers, families, whatever. Today, mind you. In large parts of the world this is still very common. Any girl/woman is the possession of a man, be it her father, brother or husband.
Do our standards of morale apply to these women? Can we judge them with our (western) norms of moral behaviour? I think not.

And the same is true for Ennis and Jack.

[Penthesilea]

Having said that, say this. If I meet another man who decided it was OK to leave his family just because he realized he was gay and not face up to the commitments of raising his children with their mother I'm going to be the one throwing the punch!

But facing ones commitments towards children doesn't mean you have to remain in an unhappy, unfulfilling marriage.
Divorcing and even moving away (even to another state) does not mean to abandon ones children.
In contrast, staying in an unhappy marriage can do just as much or even more harm to children than splitting up. What parents have to keep in mind is that they divorce their wife/husband, not their children.

[jpwagoneer1964]

No, a divorce breaks up a family, and the childten lives suffer for it. If the stay parents focused on the children, so much more important than any adult issues, and make the best of it everone will benifit. You make a choice to  marry and a choice to have childten. And leaving a spouse when you have minor children and move out of state is  abandoning children. Just no way to sugarcoat that.

[Katie77]

No, a divorce breaks up a family, and the childten lives suffer for it. If the stay parents focused on the children, so much more important than any adult issues, and make the best of it everone will benifit. You make a choice to  marry and a choice to have childten. And leaving a spouse when you have minor children and move out of state is  abandoning children. Just no way to sugarcoat that.

Got to disagree here, using my own personal experiences....

Firstly, I was the child of divorced parents, my father left my mother to live with a man, when I was 7yrs old...To tell you the truth, back then, in the late 50's (when i was in the minority, having divorced parents), from what I can remember, I just got on with what life dealt me...can't remember crying myself to sleep at night, saw enough of my dad, that I felt he was "still around", even later when I was a teenager and he moved interstate...and then when I married myself, and knew what love was all about, I was happy that my mum and dad, had been able to find love with someone else and lead a happy life.....

Not perfect, no, but I still grew up knowing my mum and dad loved me and both provided me with a home where I felt safe and comfortable.

Two generations later, I am watching the same thing happen, with my grandchildren....10 years ago, my son's wife, gave him a note to say she would be moving to another town and taking his two children with her...there was no third party, married life just got "too hard" for my former daughter in law....My son, has had constant contact with his children, even now, that he has moved to a diferent state to which they live....after visiting his children and knowing that he will not see them again for maybe another 6 months, my son is absolutely devastated, and I try to console him with my own experience, that his kids are happy, and getting on with their life, the same way, as they adapt to their time with him.....kids are very adaptable.

Thats not to say, that I wish my grandchildren were living in a two parent household, with both their mum and dad, living in a perfect family existence....not to say, that I too, would have loved to have lived in a normal family household....but as we read more and more often, this is not a perfect world.....a husband and wife staying together unhappily does not make a perfect world either.

[serious crayons]

And leaving a spouse when you have minor children and move out of state is  abandoning children. Just no way to sugarcoat that.

If you mean leaving a spouse, moving out of state and rarely seeing your children after that, I would agree with it.

But assuming both parents stay in their children's lives on a regular basis, I don't think a blanket statement about that being harmful to the children or irresponsible of the parent is appropriate. Kids may do much better with a happy single parent (or happy remarried parent) than they would with unhappy parents who live together. Furthermore, while parents do bear responsibility for their children, I don't think that necessarily extends to living their own lives unhappily for decades, for the benefit of children who might wind up just fine in any case.

There are all kinds of families, all kinds of marriages, all kinds of children. Believe me, I can think of several families in which the children were unquestionably better off because their parents split up. Divorce isn't a happy occasion for anybody, but ultimately it can be the right choice.

[nagsheadsea412]

Cheating is pretty par for the course when divorce is one out of two in this age...no great surprise there.

[Monika]

No, a divorce breaks up a family, and the childten lives suffer for it. If the stay parents focused on the children, so much more important than any adult issues, and make the best of it everone will benifit. You make a choice to  marry and a choice to have childten. And leaving a spouse when you have minor children and move out of state is  abandoning children. Just no way to sugarcoat that.

I think it´s more damaging for children to live in family where it´s clear that the parents don´t love each other. And children can tell, you bet.
Divorce does not mean that you are abondoning your children. Sometimes divorce is the most responsable thing to do.

And it´s not always a choice to marry and have children. If you are raised to believe you don´t have any other option, then it really isn´t a choice at all.