Author Topic: Annie Annie Annie  (Read 19503 times)

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Annie Annie Annie
« Reply #30 on: September 21, 2008, 06:16:25 pm »

 :laugh: :laugh: :-\  Well, that certainly is a pretty god-awful excerpt Bud.  Yikes! 

But, there really is a lot of very thoughtful writing out there too.  So, I wouldn't say that sample is at all representative of a lot of fanfic by a long shot.  But, there's certainly no doubt that there's some bad writing out there too (I mean bad in terms of folks who really aren't so skilled at writing and also some pretty lame plots, etc.).  When you look at the BrokebackSlash main index of stories you see that there must be thousands of 'em now (and that's just one community).  So, it's not surprising that you'd find some absolutely wonderful writing and ideas along with some pretty bad stories and writing.

I just don't think it's worth fretting over too much.  Some people can't stand it, and that's fine.  And, other people enjoy fanfic, and that's fine too.  One thing though, is that it's such a big phenomenon (not only in the context of BBM, but also in tons of other fan communities) that it's unlikely to go away anytime soon.


the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Annie Annie Annie
« Reply #31 on: September 21, 2008, 09:54:56 pm »
I think the reviewer has missed the point. The problem with these people who send their work to Annie Proulx is that they want her to respond or review it and praise them. Annie Proulx said to finish the story in your own life, not to escape your life by rewriting the story. Brokeback Mountain is not Star Trek, it is not escapism. It is an account of how things were and are, not how they should be or we wish it to be. All we got now is Brokeback Mountain, that is the truth that we must know, realize, and accept, and stand it, if we do not know anything else. "If you can't fix it you've got to stand it." Those are the last words in the story.

I agree, FRiend Lee.

Well, I think the thing is that fanfic writers don't do anything to diminish the original story.  It obviously stand on it's own and I don't think any fanfic writers think they're competing with Annie or even "re-writing" her story.  My sense is that there's a deep reverence for the original writing.

Amanda, I agree with you about the reverence for the original story, but, apparently, some of these people who have been pestering Annie are "rewriting" her story--witness her comment about people trying to fix it.

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There simply is no way for Proulx, or any author, to retain such possessiveness over a published story and especially one that's so popular.  

No, there isn't, but why should she have to put up with total strangers expecting her to praise them for "fixing" her own story? This is the issue that I take away from the report of her public kvetching. Perhaps it wasn't wise or charitable of her to take on that way publicly--maybe she was having a bad day  ::) --but my sympathies are completely with Annie on this issue.

I would never dream of sending her my fanfictions, much less expect her to praise me for the effort of writing them.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline optom3

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Re: Annie Annie Annie
« Reply #32 on: September 21, 2008, 10:23:19 pm »
Maybe the simplest solution would be to not open any manuscript like packages.I find that works fine for me with bill like envelopes.O.K so I usually get a snotty phone call, but hey I can live with that.

On a serious note, I cannot believe she opens all her own mail of that ilk.Surely at least she has a secretary, who deals with some of it.Also on a serious note, much as I can understand her wanting to protect her "baby" is it not a good thing that in a world which relies so much on other media for their entertainment, the works of a prize winning novelist are, reaching so many more people, but also encouraging people to try their own hand at penning a few words.

Reading a good book causes us, to not only switch on a few more brain cells, but will fire our imaginations.On the whole films spoon feed us from start to finish(not all) I personally think our imaginations are amazing tools which can transport us anywhere. If an author does not want to be inundated with fanfic, then don't put the book out in the public domain, and categorically don't allow it to be made into a film.

Once a work is in the public domain then it is just that,public. I always thought the whole purpose of writing a book was to have as many people as possible introduced to it.If not then keep it as a private and personal diary.

Maybe as another poster suggested she was just having a bad day, I certainly have a few of those, it's called being human and fallible.I still admire the woman and her work.I do however think, from the very nature of her writing, she is by nature quite terse and has a low tolerance level for those she considers fools.That's fine, we all are different and a soft, gentle natured, and people pleasing Proulx would almost certainly never have written BBM.Barbara Cartland she certainly is not, thank goodness.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Annie Annie Annie
« Reply #33 on: September 21, 2008, 10:36:10 pm »

No, there isn't, but why should she have to put up with total strangers expecting her to praise them for "fixing" her own story?

Now, this I completely agree with.  It seems very, very odd to me that a fanfic writer would want to send Annie their stories or expect any kind of feedback from her.


the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Annie Annie Annie
« Reply #34 on: September 22, 2008, 09:09:59 am »
Now, this I completely agree with.  It seems very, very odd to me that a fanfic writer would want to send Annie their stories or expect any kind of feedback from her.

This is what I believe the whole thing comes down to. Perhaps Annie even feels a little conflicted--like maybe she thinks she should take the time to respond to these people yet resents the feeling of being obligated to respond. That's happened to me from time to time.  ::)

But in any case her quoted comment wasn't exactly diplomatic. ...

Barbara Cartland she certainly is not, thank goodness.

 ;D
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline mariez

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Re: Annie Annie Annie
« Reply #35 on: September 22, 2008, 10:12:40 am »
:laugh: :laugh: :-\  Well, that certainly is a pretty god-awful excerpt Bud.  Yikes! 

Amanda, did you follow the link?  It's meant to be god-awful.  It's part of a satire poking fun at the idea of sending Annie Proulx BBM fanfics. 

My mind is still boggling from the idea that anyone would send any author a fanfic of his/her original work.  It's not only brazen; but, frankly, stupid.   What kind of responses do these people think they're going to get?  And I don't think it's just the quality or the "type" of stories she's being sent that upsets her.  There is a lot of bad fanfic - but there's also a lot that is amazingly good - professional level writing for sure.  But, I'm quite sure she wouldn't like any fanfic, b/c they all change her story in some way.  Although I must say, I imagine the stories she's being sent are probably pretty horrific in light of the mindset it would take just to send them to her looking for approval. 

But in any case her quoted comment wasn't exactly diplomatic. ...

 ;D

Well, that's a pretty "diplomatic" way of putting it  :laugh:  She ain't the touch-feely type, for sure.  I love her writing, but, even though I obviously think BBM should've won best picture, not to mention best actor, etc.,  I still wince thinking about some of the statements she made after the Oscars. 

Marie
The measure of a country's greatness is its ability to retain compassion in times of crisis         ~~~~~~~~~Thurgood Marshall

The worst loneliness is not to be comfortable with yourself.    ~~~~~~~~~ Mark Twain

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Annie Annie Annie
« Reply #36 on: September 22, 2008, 10:22:17 am »


No, I didn't follow the link.  But, I agree with the point regardless... that it's an odd idea to send fanfic to Annie or to expect feedback from Annie on fanfic.


the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline optom3

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Re: Annie Annie Annie
« Reply #37 on: September 22, 2008, 10:45:46 am »
I think Proulx is from the school of hard knocks, as they say in England.She tells it as it is and feels no need to justify what she says. There is no sugar coated pill, but neither is there in her writing.

The only thing that slightly surprises me, as she herself says, " I was an aging female writer, married too many times" , one would assume she has therefore seen a lot in her lifetime. Writers I would guess are keen observers of human nature. Why did she then seem so surprised by the deluge of fanfic.

Offline MountainMan

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Re: Annie Annie Annie
« Reply #38 on: October 03, 2008, 04:41:12 am »
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Jack Twist and Ennis Del Mar are my intellectual property

...yawn.

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beneath every mangled rewrite is the unspoken assumption that because they are men they can write this story better than a woman can

Yawn, part II. I think that's an assumption on your part, Annie....


I think Annie Proulx DOES have a problem with ownership, afer all, why would she have had her publisher send cease and desist orders to little old fanfic writers like me and threaten to get CBS's lawyers after me?  Even though fan fiction falls in the large grey area of inellectual property law, I don't have the money to put where my mouth is so I obeyed the cease and desist order, and ultimately I am glad I wrote an original story instead of hanging it on Annie Proulx's coat rack. 

...exactly. It seems like she's more concerned with preserving her characters (her story and ending) than anything else - I mean, surely it's not about the money one way or the other......either she doesn't need/want it or she could profit from "collaborative" fanfic. The interview excerpts make her sound....well, not good. Arrogant, I guess. Although I do sympathize with what appears to be her desire to preserve the integrity of her original story.....and (even tho I THINK this has prob been discussed to death elsewhere) I can understand her labeling certain attempts (ahem, slash)  as "pornish".

(for the record, I'm not "anti-slash".)

I'm going to have to read some more of her work now (I can't remember how much of Close Range I read), because every interview I've come across makes her sound incredibly pretentious. I dunno; maybe we are (I am) just bouncing off the film too much.......I feel as if she gave us this beautiful story with these incredible characters but doesn't seem to give a damn about them. I wonder how she really feels about the movie, since she didn't do the screenplay.

From what I've come across, I can't figure out her background either; it's kind of a mystery. "Hard knocks" tho, I think not - more like upper class liberal arts major (but "be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle"). Some details are there, but those don't really reveal much about her as a person.....I feel like I might understand her work and her better if I knew more than the info from a few interview quotes and wikipedia.

Aside from info from good ol' wikipedia :) here's a couple old (1997, 1999) interviews:

http://www.theatlantic.com/unbound/factfict/eapint.htm
http://www.nytimes.com/books/99/05/23/specials/proulx-home.html

and a biography - http://www.notablebiographies.com/Pe-Pu/Proulx-E-Annie.html

Cheers!
 8)

Offline Nevermore

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Re: Annie Annie Annie
« Reply #39 on: October 03, 2008, 06:44:55 am »
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It seems like she's more concerned with preserving her characters (her story and ending) than anything else - I mean, surely it's not about the money one way or the other......either she doesn't need/want it or she could profit from "collaborative" fanfic.

Well....yeah!  She created these characters. They are hers. And not incidentally, the reason we are all here. So it does kind of follow that Annie Proulx is the authority and the last word on these characters, amen. Whether or not she is a nice, caring person is very much beside the point.
As for her doing collaborative fanfiction with anyone...look, I'm told I have a pretty good singing voice. When a coworker's stepson was killed in Iraq, his wife asked me to sing "Scarlet Tide" from the Cold Mountain soundtrack at the memorial. But that doesn't mean I'm going to go to an Alison Kraus concert and expect her to be thrilled when I muscle my way onstage and join her in an impromptu duet.
Like, Not. In. A. Million. Years. OK?
Also, if these quotes from the Independent article are anything to go by, their writers are delusional, and that's being nice, if they think they have anything to say to Annie Proulx about writing. I'm not going to make any judgements about the quality of the writing so much as pointing out what should be glaringly obvious, that none of the samples is one the same plane with Proulx, or even goes with hers. At all.

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"With their eyes closed, they shared an intimate moment of united longing, pain and beauty that would take a place in eternity"


Not bad, until you hold it against this:
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Later, that dozy embrace solidified in his memory as the single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and difficult lives. Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack he held."

I can't imagine either the Jack or Ennis of the original coming out wiith anything like

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"Your eyes are like the stars. Your touch is like the sun"

considering they were

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...both high school dropout country boys, brought up to hard work and privation, both rough-mannered, rough-spoken, inured to the stoic life.

Sample of realistic dialogue:

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"I like doin it with women, yeah, but Jesus H., ain't nothin like this. I never had no thoughts a doin it with another guy except I sure wrang it out a hunderd times thinkin about you. You do it with other guys? Jack?"

They might think it:

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During the day, Ennis looked across a great gulf and sometimes saw Jack, a small dot moving across a high meadow an an insect moves across a tablecloth. Jack in his dark camp saw Ennis as night fire, a red spark on the huge black mass of mountain.

...but they don't say it. The fact that they are neither of them the type is the crux of the tragedy. It's character, not highfaulutin' language, that makes Brokeback Mountain one of the great American tragedies. Proulx is enough of a writer that she can do the soaring language thing when she chooses, when she's doing the omniscient narrator, but when she's in the characters' heads, the narrative takes the plain, unadorned idiom of their voices.
That's where the difference between the master and the amateur shows itself most painfully. Proulx is sure enough of herself as a writer she doesn't unnecessarily display her craft, or be obscure or arcane when she doesn't need to be:

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...Jack, in their contortionistic grappling and wrestling, had slammed Ennnis's nose hard with his knee. He had staunched the blood which was everywhere, all over both of them, but the staunching hadn't held because Ennis had suddenly swung from the deck and laid the ministering angel out in the wild columbine, wings folded.

The above is effortless, the following is overworked:

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"They painted beautiful, plunged creative. The kingfisher, silent, did not remove his belt".

The one thing they beat into our heads in my college writing classes was "show, don't tell." "Play it, don't say it." In other words, let the character's actions indicate his thoughts, and don't fall into the trap of thinking you have to spell it out for the reader, let him come to the conclusion himself, don't lead him there by the hand:

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Ennis, riding against the wind back to the sheep in the treacherous, drunken light, thought he'd never had such a good time, felt he could paw the white out of the moon.

Rather than

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"Everything about Jack and his jeans disturbed and tormented Ennis that summer of '63 until all he could think of or see was blue."


For the record, I'm not against fanfiction, in theory anyway. But I didn't write Brokeback Mountain or the ten other stories that make up Close Range, which is meant to be read collectively, by the way, like Winesburg, Ohio or Spoon River Anthology--a number of the characters appear in more than one story, as does  the town of Signal. If I had, I might get frustrated too, that after all that work, people weren't getting it at all.
It's just like Lister's example of that script-pitch scene in The Player, where after a few "minor changes," the final product bears only the most passing resemblance to the original.
I marvelled to think anyone could be so clueless as to actually send Proulx their "improved" version of her story, but I believe she has been known to respond very sympathetically to letters she has gotten from people who have lived the lives of the characters from Brokeback, so I suppose I can see how they let their emotions get the better of them. Possibly too she used to be more open to this kind of communication, maybe even found it amusing in an appalling way, but got burnt out, especially since 99 percent of it is terrible.
As I said, I'm not against fanfiction, or slash either, as long as the writers respect the real writer's boundaries and don't take themselves too seriously. I haven't read too much of it myself--I was curious about the phenomenon more than the writing itself, especially the fact that most of it is written by women, which I find fascinating. Most of the time, a paragraph or two was more than enough to satisfy my curiosity.
There were a couple of really, really good ones that stood on their own merits, and interestingly, both were written by men and left the original story completely intact--"canon," I believe it's called--not only does Jack Twist die, but one of the writers went back to Ennis's childhood and pretty much killed off the entire town. The body count at the end was like Unforgiven--or an Annie Proulx story.