Author Topic: Brokeback Mountain: Force of Nature or Nurture?  (Read 12404 times)

Offline ednbarby

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Re: Brokeback Mountain: Force of Nature or Nurture?
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2006, 09:36:13 pm »
This thought just occurred to me:  Really, it's society that forces Ennis and Jack to transcend their sexuality.  Not their love for each other.  Only when they are together, and perhaps moreso for Ennis since he can only be true to his sexual self with Jack (and that's where I mean his love transcends his homophobia), can they truly, completely be themselves.  Maybe that's as close to a definition of true love as we can come to:  that it's when two people can reveal themselves completely to each other and love all of what each other is unconditionally.
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Offline Rayn

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Re: Brokeback Mountain: Force of Nature or Nurture?
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2006, 01:57:17 am »
We can't help who we love.  And we can't help who we're sexually attracted to.  When both of those things come together, and passionately, the effects of repressing that emotion are devastating.  That's what this movie says to me.  But the genius of the movie is that it can say any number of other equally meaningful but different things to different people.  There is no one message it beats us over the head with.  We can all agree it's a beautiful, tragic love story. 


YES!   


Your story of the explosive affair is believable.  The tent scene in BBM is too since it's followed by the more tender scene.  I love the line from "Jane Eyre".  It's so true.  Love is a wonderful, joyful condition, but it hurts too....  sweet pain. 

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Offline Rayn

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Re: Brokeback Mountain: Force of Nature or Nurture?
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2006, 02:00:56 am »
This thought just occurred to me:  Really, it's society that forces Ennis and Jack to transcend their sexuality.  Not their love for each other.  Only when they are together, and perhaps moreso for Ennis since he can only be true to his sexual self with Jack (and that's where I mean his love transcends his homophobia), can they truly, completely be themselves.  Maybe that's as close to a definition of true love as we can come to:  that it's when two people can reveal themselves completely to each other and love all of what each other is unconditionally.

Yeah, but society is, to me, just one force acting on them from the outside more than the inside even though social conditioning works from the inside too.  Their love works from the inside only and is the most powerful of any force.  I agree completely with you on what love really is though. "... it's when two people can reveal themselves completely to each other and love all of what each other is unconditionally."  Right on!


Rayn
« Last Edit: April 04, 2006, 11:51:33 pm by Rayn »

Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: Brokeback Mountain: Force of Nature or Nurture?
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2006, 07:12:57 pm »
This thought just occurred to me:  Really, it's society that forces Ennis and Jack to transcend their sexuality.  Not their love for each other.  Only when they are together, and perhaps moreso for Ennis since he can only be true to his sexual self with Jack (and that's where I mean his love transcends his homophobia), can they truly, completely be themselves.  Maybe that's as close to a definition of true love as we can come to:  that it's when two people can reveal themselves completely to each other and love all of what each other is unconditionally.

Really interesting couple of posts ednbarby, but you lost me with: "Really, it's society that forces Ennis and Jack to transcend their sexuality.  Not their love for each other"  - I don't understand what you mean.  The rest of this paragraph is fine where you say love transcends homophobia (clearly this is true), but I thought it would be fair to say that society didn't want them to be together.  So how does it force them to transcend their sexuality?  I was also a little surprised to hear you say that you thought Ennis was predominantly more gay than Jack.  Now I don't want to start anything here that's been done to death in other threads or forums, and I'm not worried either way, but most people see it the other way around?

Quote
We can't help who we love.  And we can't help who we're sexually attracted to.

This statement bothers me a little, in a Jerry Springer "It just happened" sort of way.  Do we really have no control over this?  I think we do, but we allow ourselves to think that we have no control because we don't want to take responsibility for our actions/thoughts/feelings.  Now I've had crushes on people too, and even made the stupid mistake for falling for a straight guy.  But the point is, at the time I was kidding myself that there was more to our relationship than I wanted to admit, and I didn't want to give it up.  This is part of growing up.  If we fall for someone, it's not some accident and it doesn't just happen.  We allow ourselves to feel that way and we project our feelings on to the other, seeing in them what we want to see in ourselves.  Now attraction is just attraction - it's superficial and doesn't require anything in return, so I guess it's safe enough to be attracted to someone and not "help it".  But love (that's love - not just a crush) does not happen without an emotional decision from the individual.  It puzzles me that we see ourselves as intellectual creatures, but choose to believe that the processes of the heart work to a different agenda.  Just my humble opinion. 

Btw, I loved your description/definition of love and the Jane Eyre quote - beautiful - totally agree with these.
Nothing is as common as the wish to be remarkable - William Shakespeare

Offline ednbarby

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Re: Brokeback Mountain: Force of Nature or Nurture?
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2006, 12:06:13 am »
Aussie Chris, I understand what you're saying.  Really, it's not that Ennis was "more gay" than Jack or vice-versa.  Both of them were not all that into having sex with their wives.  Ennis keeps his eyes closed the entire time he and Alma are getting it on - in both scenes.  In the first one, especially, we see that he does not even want to kiss her (she says "C'mere...," just aching for him to do it, and he pulls away).  And even though Jack seems really into it the first time he and Lureen get together in the back seat of her Daddy's car, we know from the dance scene before it that he has resigned himself to being with someone to whom he is *not* sexually attracted because she has money and can better his life.

I guess I just thought of Ennis as being more predominantly gay than Jack because of his apparent disgust at having sex with a woman.  But maybe it's more that Jack is the better actor of the two.
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Offline ednbarby

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Re: Brokeback Mountain: Force of Nature or Nurture?
« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2006, 12:12:52 am »
And you know what... Of course one isn't "more gay" than the other.  It's all about who's willing to accept his own sexuality and who is not.

Look at what they wear.  Throughout the movie, Jack wears nothing but solid color shirts and Ennis wears nothing but plaid/patterned ones.  This is a symbol of Jack's security in his own sexuality vs. Ennis'.

So you're right - I was wrong to assume one was more homosexual than the other.  They are one and the same.  It's the willingness to accept that that differs.
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Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: Brokeback Mountain: Force of Nature or Nurture?
« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2006, 12:54:18 am »
I guess I just thought of Ennis as being more predominantly gay than Jack because of his apparent disgust at having sex with a woman.  But maybe it's more that Jack is the better actor of the two.

That's a good point, I hadn't thought of it that way before.  I love asking questions like this because everyone interprets scenes differently, but it's when you get someone who (seems to) draw to an almost opposite conclusion that I just have to ask how they did it.  And while some arguments about their sexuality lack demonstrable evidence, yours works very well with the scenes as we see them - fantastic stuff!  It does present Ennis as an even more tortured and tragic character than I had considered, if that were possible, since he's the one with the most homophobia.  And I agree 100% with the last part about the willingness to accept, and the symbolism of the colour of the shirts.
Nothing is as common as the wish to be remarkable - William Shakespeare

Offline ednbarby

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Re: Brokeback Mountain: Force of Nature or Nurture?
« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2006, 01:06:48 am »
And again, it just goes to show you the genius of this movie - that we come to question things that hadn't even occurred to us before from the insights of other people.

A friend who just saw it for the first (and second) times said this:  This is the one thing that doesn't fly with me:  How can Jack, who was raised Pentecostal, seemingly have zero guilt in his couplings with/love for Ennis, whereas Ennis is consumed by it?

My take was that Jack never bought into the whole religious/Pentecostal thing, hence his "I don't know what The Pentecost means" and that moreover, he was all about rising above the status quo - for example, when Ennis comes up on a bear and all that and Jack says "We gotta do something about this food situation" - when Jack suggests that they shoot one of the sheep and Ennis says something along the lines of "We have to accept things the way they are," Jack says, "Well, I won't."  That, to me, is the defining moment of Jack.

Later on, Jack's father says, "I know where Brokeback Mountain is.  Jack thought he was too damn special to be buried in the family plot..."

Truth is, he was.
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Offline Aloysius J. Gleek

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Re: Brokeback Mountain: Force of Nature or Nurture?
« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2006, 03:39:31 pm »

"Truth is, he was."


Love you, Barb.



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(and you know who I am...)


Cowboy Curtis (Laurence Fishburne)
and Pee-wee in the 1990 episode
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Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: Brokeback Mountain: Force of Nature or Nurture?
« Reply #19 on: April 02, 2006, 06:03:56 pm »
Later on, Jack's father says, "I know where Brokeback Mountain is.  Jack thought he was too damn special to be buried in the family plot..."

Truth is, he was.

Totally Barb!  And how!!  What a simply beautiful way to sum up how I feel about Jack and the emotions of that moment of the film.
Nothing is as common as the wish to be remarkable - William Shakespeare