Love vs. Lust (split off from Things that make you go 'hunh?')

[Jeff Wrangler]

Still, and I can't think of any way to prove this one way or the other, but I find it very very difficult to believe that as women become less suppressed we will start seeing them engage in quick, casual sex with random total strangers in the same numbers that men do.

I would agree with you, Katherine, and, in addition, I wonder whether or to what extent male behavior is changing, too---thanks to the Internet. I mean, I know guys who--you should pardon the expression  --"get off" on quick, anonymous sex in "tea rooms," as they are called, but, anecdotally, so many people seem to be hooking up via the Internet these days that I wonder if things are changing.

Along with that, I'm wondering how or if things are changing for openly gay men compared to closeted gay men, or maybe I should just say "closeted men-who-have-sex-with-men," because assuredly not all the men who engage in sex in tea rooms are closeted gays. I'm thinking, for example, of the married man of whatever orientation or degree of self-awareness who can't risk going to gay "social networking" web sites on his home computer so may still stop off at the bookstore for a quick blowjob on his way to work. 

So, in summary, I'm wondering if the Internet is making a difference in behavior for men who openly have sex with me, but not for men on the down-low.

[Mikaela]

I agree with most of this, because I agree there are cultural and social components to differences between male and female behavior.

In reading through this thread, I'm wondering...
If it is true that many women's behaviour is turning more "like men's" when it comes to having constant and casual sex, how do we know that this is "the real and non-repressed" women's behaviour? It seems to me that being sexually desirable, presenting oneself as a sexual being/sexual object and expressing oneself through frequent and also, if necessary, casual sex is being held forth as one of the western culture's current standards for both male and female success. You meet this cultural trait everywhere you turn - in all sorts of shows, commercials, ads, performances, billboards, movies - very much come across as soft porn and focus pretty directly on sexsexsex. I'm merely observing, not passing judgment, btw - and I'm not a prude. (I hope!!)

But I would postulate that women's current behavioural changes may be culturally conditioned as much as previous times' forced abstinence or limited sexual activity for women ever were. That frequent casual sex with many partners may in fact have a considerable element of cultural conditioning in it, and not only represent a return to our original, unrepressed, self-asserting, self-realizing state. 

When was the behaviour of anyone, anywhere, ever, not significantly impacted by the culture they were a part of? We're social animals and conform to the norm.

[serious crayons]

Thanks for agreeing, Jeff! Though I'll have to acknowledge that you raise a good point for the "other side,"  -- the "society is destiny" perspective. One reason gay men have that sort of encounter is undoubtedly also cultural repression -- that is, historically they haven't been allowed to pursue sex through the "socially acceptable" avenues that straight men do, so they HAVE to go with quick anonymous sex.

So society has forced gay men to seek casual sex, while prohibiting women from doing so. I still think there are biological factors -- gay male sex has been frowned upon, yet despite that they find ways to do it anyway, straight female sex is frowned upon, but they haven't developed "tea rooms" of their own (gay women benefit from the fact that women's close friendships are socially approved, so they can go "under cover" as close friends or roommates).

[serious crayons]

In reading through this thread, I'm wondering...
If it is true that many women's behaviour is turning more "like men's" when it comes to having constant and casual sex, how do we know that this is "the real and non-repressed" women's behaviour? It seems to me that being sexually desirable, presenting oneself as a sexual being/sexual object and expressing oneself through frequent and also casual sex is being held forth as one of the western culture's current standards of success. You meet this cultural trait everywhere you turn - in all sorts of shows, commercials, ads, performances, billboards, movies - very much come across as soft porn and focus pretty directly on sex. I'm merely observing, not passing judgment, btw - and I'm not a prude. (I hope!!)
But I would postulate that women's current behavioural changes may be culturally conditioned as much as previous times' forced abstinence or limited sexual activity for woman ever was. That frequent casual sex with many partners may in fact have an element of cultural conditioning, and not only represent a return to our original, unrepressed, self-asserting, self-realizing state. 
When was the behaviour of anyone, anywhere, ever not significantly impacted by the culture they were a part of?

Excellent point, Mikaela. One of the problems with making value judgments in distinguishing male vs. female behavior is that female behavior tends to be devalued by the culture. So when restrictions are removed or decreased, women may indeed be able to pursue forms of behavior that were traditionally male. But in addition to the question of whether such behavior was "natural" for women all along and was just sociall repressed, comes the question of whether such behavior is, in some objective sense, "superior" to the way women previously behaved, or whether we have been socially conditioned to believe their previous behavior was "inferior" because it was done by second-class citizens, i.e., women. So maybe women are having more casual sex not because they've wanted to all along but because we simply want to have all the opportunities that men have.

Goes back to all of those knitting vs. football sorts of issues.

[Mikaela]

Insofar that women turn to casual sex to conform to the norm and prove to themselves and others that they are sexually desirable (which in most cases means deasirable to men), we're still in the same loop. Just using different means to the same end. I don't think that's the case though - mostly I think (and hope) that there is real liberation involved. 

[Monika]

Let me ask you this. Do you really feel that there are no differences whatsoever between male and female attitudes and behavior? That is, do you think that men and women, though obviously different on the outside, are indistinguishable on the inside? If not -- that is, if you think it's possible that men and women do differ on the inside -- then why would sexuality be an exception? Or if so -- if you think differences between men and women are just external -- then would you attribute all of the differences in male/female behavior, throughout all of history and across all cultures, to purely bodily differences such as physical strength rather than anything emotional or behavioral?

I think there are differences between female attitudes and behavior. To me the question is what differences is a result of genetics, and what differences is due to social factors. I think one should be careful pinpoint certain types of behavior as "biological" because it can easily be misused. And whatever biological differenses between the sexes there might be, I personally beleve that thousands of years of of social codes imposed on human sexuality has left its mark to the extent that social factors might almost overule the biological ones.

[Monika]

In reading through this thread, I'm wondering...
If it is true that many women's behaviour is turning more "like men's" when it comes to having constant and casual sex, how do we know that this is "the real and non-repressed" women's behaviour? It seems to me that being sexually desirable, presenting oneself as a sexual being/sexual object and expressing oneself through frequent and also, if necessary, casual sex is being held forth as one of the western culture's current standards for both male and female success. You meet this cultural trait everywhere you turn - in all sorts of shows, commercials, ads, performances, billboards, movies - very much come across as soft porn and focus pretty directly on sexsexsex. I'm merely observing, not passing judgment, btw - and I'm not a prude. (I hope!!)

But I would postulate that women's current behavioural changes may be culturally conditioned as much as previous times' forced abstinence or limited sexual activity for women ever were. That frequent casual sex with many partners may in fact have a considerable element of cultural conditioning in it, and not only represent a return to our original, unrepressed, self-asserting, self-realizing state. 

Good point, Mikaela. I would say that everything (or most things at least) we do is culturally conditioned, but the question here is what came first. I.e what´s the hen and what´s the egg? Is the "sexsexsex" in shows, commercials, ads etc what has triggered that kind of behavior in women, or is it itself a result of a change it the attitudes of women and society?