Author Topic: Dave Cullen's new book  (Read 22703 times)

Offline Monika

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Re: Lessons of Columbine
« Reply #40 on: April 22, 2009, 08:11:14 am »
Did I say this? I'm looking at my post again...I don't see any evidence of me saying this... 
You didn´t, Lee :-*

injest

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Re: Dave Cullen's new book - Oprah show cancelled
« Reply #41 on: April 22, 2009, 08:37:03 am »
yes she did. she said we all would be in prison if evil people had to be imprisoned. That means she considers ALL evil to be equal and we are all equally guilty.




Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Lessons of Columbine
« Reply #42 on: April 22, 2009, 09:28:30 am »
If we "removed all the evil people from society" then there would be nobody left. In the US, we already incarcerate more people than in any other developed nation!

Maybe instead of locking them all up, we should just hang a few of the worst offenders, pour encourager les autres.

Quote
I would probably be behind bars, since a person just called me "evil" recently, when I got out my Tarot deck to do a reading.

 :o  Telling fortunes!?!?! The work of the Devil!!!!  ;D  ;)
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Dave Cullen's new book - Oprah show cancelled
« Reply #43 on: April 22, 2009, 09:42:03 am »
yes she did. she said we all would be in prison if evil people had to be imprisoned. That means she considers ALL evil to be equal and we are all equally guilty.

No, it doesn't mean that. It means that anybody can call anybody else evil and since the definition of evil seems to be in the eye of the beholder (and includes things like Tarot reading) then people would just denounce each other and we would all be in the same boat. Go back to the Salem witch-hunts, it was the same thing.
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Offline mariez

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Re: Dave Cullen's new book - Oprah show cancelled
« Reply #44 on: April 22, 2009, 01:22:20 pm »
Dave Cullen was on the Rachel Maddow show last night.  I was on the phone with the TV on mute.  When my TV is on mute it automatically goes to closed captioning, but still I missed most of the content. 

Amanda, here's a link to a video of the interview Rachel did with Dave Cullen on her show:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#30316505
The measure of a country's greatness is its ability to retain compassion in times of crisis         ~~~~~~~~~Thurgood Marshall

The worst loneliness is not to be comfortable with yourself.    ~~~~~~~~~ Mark Twain

Offline Clyde-B

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Re: Dave Cullen's new book - Oprah show cancelled
« Reply #45 on: April 22, 2009, 01:55:13 pm »
People can be isolated from society without calling them evil.  And no one is seriously suggesting simple minded feel good solutions like hugs.

But those that find themselves lost in the dark night of the soul may never find their own way out.  Are we supposed to be so callous that we blind ourselves to their humanity?  So we lock them away and leave them to die alone in their own private hells.  They used to do something similar to AIDS patients in the beginning.   

If you want others treated this way, that's your choice, but remember the admonition about "the least of these"


Offline serious crayons

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Re: Dave Cullen's new book - Oprah show cancelled
« Reply #46 on: April 22, 2009, 01:58:10 pm »
My own opinion is closer to Jess', in this case. (Yeah, I know, :o.)

I wouldn't call it "evil," with its religious connotations. But from what I've read of or about Dave Cullen's book, the kids were not neglected and the parents were not at fault, and in fact they tried to help. Nor would I blame video games or suburbia, since millions of other kids confront those same factors without becoming mass murderers. It's nice to point the finger at perceived causes like that because it makes it explainable and predictable and avoidable. But apparently, according to Cullen anyway, that's not the case here.

One of the kids, Dylan Klebold, was depressed -- his reasons for doing it are a little cloudier to me -- but the other was a psychopath who constantly fantasized about causing huge destruction that would kill lots of people. That's Eric Harris, the "impressive young man" Cullen refers to below in an interview with Time magazine (the interviewer's questions are in bold):

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1891815,00.html

How difficult was the writing?

I tried to pace out writing the hard chapters. The one about the Klebolds' funeral for [Dylan] was really hard, which I didn't expect. To empathize with a killer is hard. You don't want to go there, but you have to. We've all got good and bad and nasty urges in us.

I spent five months just ingesting Eric. All I did was read his journals, listen to his music, and watch some of the movies he liked. Then I spent 4½ months on Dylan. The Eric part was O.K. It was like inspecting a disease. There's one time in Eric's journal — it's just a line or two — where he talks about turning off his feelings of sympathy. He has some kind of awareness [that what he's doing is wrong]. And that makes it almost a little more diabolical.

In the end I found Dylan far more interesting. Eric started out wanting to become a killer, and became a killer. Dylan started out wanting to commit suicide.

I wonder if you were more interested in Dylan because Eric, as you argue, was a born psychopath, and there wasn't really anyone to blame.

Exactly. I didn't really feel any sense of kinship with Eric. Obviously what Dylan did was wrong, but I could identify with a lot of the things he was going through. I was a teenager too. I remember wallowing in my own self-pity.

One thing I just couldn't wrap my head around was the process by which Dylan went from a depressed kid to one capable of committing mass murder.


I don't know if there's ever any final understanding of that. He didn't ever actually explain to us why he did this.

Why did the killers keep jumping through hoops — working their jobs, writing papers, going to the prom — right up until the attack? It makes the attack seem more like a performance than an angry act.

Definitely. This is what terrorism is: violence as theater. 9/11 was a performance, a show for America to make us quake. This was a performance for Eric in particular.

You clearly have sympathy for the Klebolds. What about toward the Harrises?


I could see from what Eric wrote about them that they seem very clearly to be good parents. After [Eric and Dylan were arrested in January 1998 for breaking into a van] Wayne Harris' journal was rife with activity. He didn't just send Eric to a shrink. He called a whole bunch of them himself. He was trying to do things right.


So where did they go wrong?


I don't know that they did. If someone had told them their kid was a psychopath, they could have done things differently. But how could they ever have known that?

Eric fooled everybody. I just did a reading where someone said she'd worked closely with Eric and had a distinct memory of him being such an impressive young man: polite, charming, deferential to adults. Just like what you wish all the little high school brats were like. She said all the teachers were fooled. When you have someone growing up to be a professional con artist, it's pretty hard for the Harrises to see through that. Parents of psychopaths never figure it out.

And the Klebolds? Why didn't they realize Dylan was so depressed, for starters?

I asked psychiatrists about that. They said, "Oh, you've got a morose 16-year-old boy. Welcome to America." The parents just thought he was going through adolescence, and high school was hard. They knew he was depressed; they just didn't realize how severely. Dylan's dad was close with his son. He knew he had a troubled kid. But Dylan was painfully shy from when he was a little boy. You don't see this coming.

A lot of myths sprang up immediately after Columbine. Why were we so quick to jump on pat narratives?


The problem with Columbine was we felt the need to explain it right away. It was so horrifying, and the public wanted to know why it happened. We in the media wanted to know why too, and we thought we had to answer them. What we should have said was, "We don't have any good information, and it would be irresponsible of us to say why." When you speculate in a case like this, it very quickly morphs into "fact." We started with the assumption that school shooters tend to be loners, outcasts and bullied. That turned out to be a myth: some are bullied, but not even 50%. The majority are not any of those things.

« Last Edit: April 22, 2009, 04:30:38 pm by serious crayons »

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Dave Cullen's new book - Oprah show cancelled
« Reply #47 on: April 22, 2009, 02:19:47 pm »
Quote
"Eric fooled everybody."

Tell you what, maybe I just watch too much TV, but that sure sounds like the definition of a psychopath.  :-\

I guess it's true that nobody wants to believe any child is born bad--a "bad seed," if you will--but if ever there was one, it seems like it was Eric Harris.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

injest

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Re: Dave Cullen's new book - Oprah show cancelled
« Reply #48 on: April 22, 2009, 06:48:16 pm »
No, it doesn't mean that. It means that anybody can call anybody else evil and since the definition of evil seems to be in the eye of the beholder (and includes things like Tarot reading) then people would just denounce each other and we would all be in the same boat. Go back to the Salem witch-hunts, it was the same thing.

I am sorry I spoke (posted) so harshly before, Lee, I think we just disagree but I should not have been so rough. Please accept my apology, it has been weighing on my mind today.

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Dave Cullen's new book - Oprah show cancelled
« Reply #49 on: April 22, 2009, 07:00:15 pm »
No problem, Jess. I got your PM too. You can PM me directly, you know.
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